Is a Biochemistry Degree important for Computational Bio Ph.D?

[Luptior]

I'm now in my junior year (2 semesters left actually),  double major in Biochem and Computer Science and interested in applying to Compbio PhD programs. Used to spend a lot of time in wet-lab(might be a waste of time...) but grow more interest in the comp bio recently, and plan to change to dry lab in the following semester. Here comes the question, I consulted a Ph.D student who is in a compchem program and he told me that coding ability actually is more important for computational science research. So I'm now considering about giving up biochem major, also concerning continuing on these two majors could be really a heavy burden for the following semesters.

I took some chem/bio courses which I think should be already meet the prereq compbio programs(with reference to CMU compbio), but there are still like 5 more upper-level courses left to finish the BS degree:

Gen Chem 1/2 w/Lab,

Organic Chem 1/2 w/Lab,

Inorganic Chem,

Analytical Chem w/Lab,

Phycical Chem 1/2

Computational Pchem Lab,

Gen Bio 1 w/Lab,

Molecular Biology & Genetics,

Intro Biochem,

Macromolecule Struc & Metabolism

(Will still take one Cell Bio and one u'grad course in compbio offered by bio dept next semester if I decide to give up biochem)

Edited September 19, 2016 by Luptior

[biochemgirl67]

Hmmm... I think you should continue with the biochem major.  The basic understanding of biochemistry and all its associated fields will apply really well in computational biology programs.  I get where the grad student was coming from, but just remember that when he said important, he meant practical.  He means that he applies coding every day, which I'm sure is 100% true.  But going back and trying to play catch up to all the people with biology backgrounds that understand the specifics of protein structure and what techniques are used in molecular genetics and can scientifically logic through a metabolism pathway?  Those things are important in the less practical parts of a PhD... reading papers you'll use to write your grants, discussing in journal clubs, passing your qualifying exams.  Computational skill is 100% a plus and super important, but I don't feel like it trumps biochemistry/biological study such that it renders the basics of biological processes unimportant.  And why would you drop it?  It'll be hard work but worth it.

And honestly, you're graduating in a "off" semester, so you could stay 1 more semester if it works financially or take a post-bacc/research assistantship to increase your computational experience past 2 semesters.  Then you would be set to apply by fall of 2018 (or fall of 2019, if you need the extra time to offset your grades).  That would definitely decrease the workload if you're concerned about it.

Also wondering why you haven't taken Gen Chem OR Organic yet... Any of it???

[biochemgirl67]

I'm an idiot... that was a list of classes you've already taken, wasn't it?

 

Ugh.  This day, it just keeps getting better.

[Luptior]

On 9/27/2016 at 5:06 PM, biochemgirl67 said:

Hmmm... I think you should continue with the biochem major.  The basic understanding of biochemistry and all its associated fields will apply really well in computational biology programs.  I get where the grad student was coming from, but just remember that when he said important, he meant practical.  He means that he applies coding every day, which I'm sure is 100% true.  But going back and trying to play catch up to all the people with biology backgrounds that understand the specifics of protein structure and what techniques are used in molecular genetics and can scientifically logic through a metabolism pathway?  Those things are important in the less practical parts of a PhD... reading papers you'll use to write your grants, discussing in journal clubs, passing your qualifying exams.  Computational skill is 100% a plus and super important, but I don't feel like it trumps biochemistry/biological study such that it renders the basics of biological processes unimportant.  And why would you drop it?  It'll be hard work but worth it.

And honestly, you're graduating in a "off" semester, so you could stay 1 more semester if it works financially or take a post-bacc/research assistantship to increase your computational experience past 2 semesters.  Then you would be set to apply by fall of 2018 (or fall of 2019, if you need the extra time to offset your grades).  That would definitely decrease the workload if you're concerned about it.

Also wondering why you haven't taken Gen Chem OR Organic yet... Any of it???

I listed gen and organic on the top… And yes, these are the courses I've taken...

 

BS in biochem almost is demanding major in my college, there are a lot of courses required. I still some courses left like Metabolic chem, a biochem lab, an inorganic synthetic lab, an pchem lab, which is not a lot but still need a bunch of time. And I feel maybe I already took enough courses for compbio(I'm not sure if it’s really enough for the research but according to the reccommeneded courses listed on CMU’s program website it should be enough), and the leftovers are mostly lab courses(actually I learn some or most of them in my undergraduate research before, so in my opinion there’s no need to take the course just for the credits…)

 

Actually I should be able to get at least a BA degree in chem since I’ve finished even more than the degree requirements, but college's policy restricts transfer students to get a degree if we transferred more than 50% of the major courses in… I do still have 2 semesters left, but I've some gened course(3), and a cell bio, an compbio course of bio dept, and some programming courses like algorithm, bioalgorithm and etc. Which I think are at some level more important for me if I want to apply for compbio program。 

 

But I I do so I definitely cannot get a biochem degree...and not sure if it's a right choice...

 

 

[biochemgirl67]

On 9/29/2016 at 2:10 PM, Luptior said:

I listed gen and organic on the top… And yes, these are the courses I've taken...

 

BS in biochem almost is demanding major in my college, there are a lot of courses required. I still some courses left like Metabolic chem, a biochem lab, an inorganic synthetic lab, an pchem lab, which is not a lot but still need a bunch of time. And I feel maybe I already took enough courses for compbio(I'm not sure if it’s really enough for the research but according to the reccommeneded courses listed on CMU’s program website it should be enough), and the leftovers are mostly lab courses(actually I learn some or most of them in my undergraduate research before, so in my opinion there’s no need to take the course just for the credits…)

 

Actually I should be able to get at least a BA degree in chem since I’ve finished even more than the degree requirements, but college's policy restricts transfer students to get a degree if we transferred more than 50% of the major courses in… I do still have 2 semesters left, but I've some gened course(3), and a cell bio, an compbio course of bio dept, and some programming courses like algorithm, bioalgorithm and etc. Which I think are at some level more important for me if I want to apply for compbio program。 

 

But I I do so I definitely cannot get a biochem degree...and not sure if it's a right choice...

 

 

Yeah, I realized that after I typed the whole thing up.  In my defense, it wasn't quite clear but I was also having a bad day.

I mean, here's my perspective (and feel free to take it or leave it).  Undergrad is primarily a way for you to gain a broad understanding of the entire field that you will be studying in grad school.  Obviously there are practical skills in there, but in no way are you going to need to be able to use the Schrodinger equation or regurgitate the TCA cycle or know the intrinsic properties of lipid biochemistry or be able to draw the cell cycle or the thousands of other things we learn in all those classes.  They don't feel like it at the time, but those classes are super broad.  So in my view, all of those courses will be "important" and I could see you using any of them in combination with quantitative and computational biology.  Undergrad is not about getting skills to list on a resume, if you're going for a PhD it's about building a solid foundation for your career ahead.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm actually not a fan of treating undergrad like every class should apply to your career.  (I mean unless you are going for something skill-based, which you're not.  Computer science is to some extent, but I mean like IT or secondary education or mechanical engineering.)  If you really feel like you can't succeed in these classes because it's simply too much, then sure, go ahead and drop the biochem and be just computer science.  I think you should keep it because I see biochemistry as the cornerstone of modern science, but know that when you apply to the PhD programs, they will only see "Computer Science" listed.  You can point out your work in biochemistry, but honestly it's not extensive enough for me to have pointed out because I would have been afraid the committee would either 1) not care because all the other applicants would have the basics too or 2) wonder why I was pointing it out if I dropped the major because it was too much work.  You haven't done graduate work or really specialized courses above and beyond the biochemistry curriculum, so I would imagine that it would be non-information.  You also haven't done very much computational biology research yet (Still don't know when you're applying) so you really need to think about how you're going to answer the question of why you want to do that type of research and get that type of training.

[biochemgirl67]

And by the way, if you write about all your experiences outside of compbio like they were a "waste time" then you're going to come across as very negative.  Wet lab served a purpose and gave you a certain set of skills, just like compbio does.  Just like both your majors have served a purpose to get you where you are.  A lot of times many computational people (like your PhD friend) underestimate the value of scientific wet lab and think of the skills as throw-away or less valuable.  But you're not just learning techniques in wet lab, you're learning how to experiment, how to think 5 steps ahead, how to deal with technical failure and fix it, and how to think about the science that you believe is happening when you're at the bench.  These are all valuable and important skills in any scientist, wet or dry.  You also will probably have to collaborate with wet scientists and if you can understand their mindset and their perspective, you will be better at your job.

[Luptior]

On 9/30/2016 at 4:12 PM, biochemgirl67 said:

Yeah, I realized that after I typed the whole thing up.  In my defense, it wasn't quite clear but I was also having a bad day.

I mean, here's my perspective (and feel free to take it or leave it).  Undergrad is primarily a way for you to gain a broad understanding of the entire field that you will be studying in grad school.  Obviously there are practical skills in there, but in no way are you going to need to be able to use the Schrodinger equation or regurgitate the TCA cycle or know the intrinsic properties of lipid biochemistry or be able to draw the cell cycle or the thousands of other things we learn in all those classes.  They don't feel like it at the time, but those classes are super broad.  So in my view, all of those courses will be "important" and I could see you using any of them in combination with quantitative and computational biology.  Undergrad is not about getting skills to list on a resume, if you're going for a PhD it's about building a solid foundation for your career ahead.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm actually not a fan of treating undergrad like every class should apply to your career.  (I mean unless you are going for something skill-based, which you're not.  Computer science is to some extent, but I mean like IT or secondary education or mechanical engineering.)  If you really feel like you can't succeed in these classes because it's simply too much, then sure, go ahead and drop the biochem and be just computer science.  I think you should keep it because I see biochemistry as the cornerstone of modern science, but know that when you apply to the PhD programs, they will only see "Computer Science" listed.  You can point out your work in biochemistry, but honestly it's not extensive enough for me to have pointed out because I would have been afraid the committee would either 1) not care because all the other applicants would have the basics too or 2) wonder why I was pointing it out if I dropped the major because it was too much work.  You haven't done graduate work or really specialized courses above and beyond the biochemistry curriculum, so I would imagine that it would be non-information.  You also haven't done very much computational biology research yet (Still don't know when you're applying) so you really need to think about how you're going to answer the question of why you want to do that type of research and get that type of training.

I drop Biochem simply because I only have two semesters left and the schedule is too full for me to insert another 3, 4courses… For the question you still confused, I'll graduate Dec 17 and prepare to apply for 18 Fall admission. So in addition to this semester, I only have 2 left. And there is no space (6 lectures maximum for each semester) so… I'm not that afraid of workloads but overloading seems more impossible plus that I want to do some research in the new direction. BTW, besides CS actually I can finish a bio minor thanks to the previous work on biochemistry but not sure if a minor can help

 

There's still more than 1 year before the DDL but I just get more and more worried about application … 

 

For the points you mentioned… Actually, I'm still super confused what are the academic demography of compbio applicants? More comp background or bio background? CMU's website says they welcome the applicants from different fields.

"We welcome students from various backgrounds, including life sciences, computer sciences, physical sciences, mathematics, statistics or engineering majors. We especially welcome students with interdisciplinary backgrounds (e.g., with undergraduate (or Master’s) degrees in computational biology or bioinformatics), or multi-disciplinary backgrounds, for example, double major or major/minor in biology and a quantitative science."http://www.compbio.cmu.edu/?page_id=163  

 

And if the more applicants actually hold a biochemistry degree, yes my biochem background cannot stand out and I even don't have a degree for that but will the comp sci help? And there are some applicants from computer science majors applying to this program, it's more impossible for them to get the upper biochemistry courses on their transcripts, will it undermine their chance to get into this kind of programs? 

 

I know graduate courses might be a great bonus to the transcript, and I'm interested in taking 1 or 2 but definitely not that a lot. I know some of my friends who intended for Math Ph.D. actually took a whole bunch of grad courses but they are more theoretical and enjoys more freedom in undergrad curriculum… In my current lab, 2/3 of the PhDs come from LAC which seems even don't offer any graduate courses… How they solve these problems?

 

Actually, I love my wet lab experience so far but my worry is how the committee value them, will they think the "unrelated" experience as a waste of time? And I agree with you that most computational researchers underestimate the importance of wet lab and even the background knowledge…

Edited October 3, 2016 by Luptior

[ballwera]

Just from looking at CMU's website it looks like they want student's w/ a basic background in both CS and Bio. However they all state they take students with an either or background and tailor your coursework to an individuals background. If I were you I'd stop paying attention to a specific programs "recommendations", because these will be different for every program and every student applying. This isn't like medical school there is not perfect mold for an applications and there are no real "hard" requirements as far as course load. Focus on your research and keep your GPA up those are the 2 most important things you can do imo..  

[biochemgirl67]

14 hours ago, Luptior said:

I drop Biochem simply because I only have two semesters left and the schedule is too full for me to insert another 3, 4courses… For the question you still confused, I'll graduate Dec 17 and prepare to apply for 18 Fall admission. So in addition to this semester, I only have 2 left. And there is no space (6 lectures maximum for each semester) so… I'm not that afraid of workloads but overloading seems more impossible plus that I want to do some research in the new direction. BTW, besides CS actually I can finish a bio minor thanks to the previous work on biochemistry but not sure if a minor can help

 

There's still more than 1 year before the DDL but I just get more and more worried about application … 

 

For the points you mentioned… Actually, I'm still super confused what are the academic demography of compbio applicants? More comp background or bio background? CMU's website says they welcome the applicants from different fields.

"We welcome students from various backgrounds, including life sciences, computer sciences, physical sciences, mathematics, statistics or engineering majors. We especially welcome students with interdisciplinary backgrounds (e.g., with undergraduate (or Master’s) degrees in computational biology or bioinformatics), or multi-disciplinary backgrounds, for example, double major or major/minor in biology and a quantitative science."http://www.compbio.cmu.edu/?page_id=163  

 

And if the more applicants actually hold a biochemistry degree, yes my biochem background cannot stand out and I even don't have a degree for that but will the comp sci help? And there are some applicants from computer science majors applying to this program, it's more impossible for them to get the upper biochemistry courses on their transcripts, will it undermine their chance to get into this kind of programs? 

 

I know graduate courses might be a great bonus to the transcript, and I'm interested in taking 1 or 2 but definitely not that a lot. I know some of my friends who intended for Math Ph.D. actually took a whole bunch of grad courses but they are more theoretical and enjoys more freedom in undergrad curriculum… In my current lab, 2/3 of the PhDs come from LAC which seems even don't offer any graduate courses… How they solve these problems?

 

Actually, I love my wet lab experience so far but my worry is how the committee value them, will they think the "unrelated" experience as a waste of time? And I agree with you that most computational researchers underestimate the importance of wet lab and even the background knowledge…

They are literally telling you that in their opinion, that you don't need to check each box.  That to them (as will be the case for many grad school applications if not all) your background will be tailored to your own "journey."  I might stop looking at requirements and start taking a more holistic approach where I consider each change in your academic plan for a reason.  I've already said that if you feel that your current schedule would be an overload, you shouldn't do it.  I would keep the minor in biology or biochemistry if you can without any effort/minimal effort, because I feel like it underlines your hard work.  I really think you need to stop looking at your degree as "helping" or not.  Just do your Comp Sci degree and take a biology or biochem minor.  You really want to stand out on your LoRs, your SoP, and your research.

On that note, go to a national conference and present if you can!  Super fun to talk about and if you meet some faculty you later interview with, they might remember you.  You school should have scholarships to allow you to go with no cost to you.

A couple grad courses is more than plenty... no need to go overboard.  And at least in my experience, people from LACs have amazing GPAs.  Makes me jealous lol.  But actually being in grad school, I'm here to tell you that everybody's from a different background.  There is no majority or whatnot (although in my particular program EVERYBODY majored in biochem or neuro... kind of funny actually.)

Well, I'm glad you don't view it as negative and maybe you're just freaking out a tad, but don't be worrying if the adcom thinks it's a waste of time.  Did it help you get you where you are?  Yes?  Then it's not a waste time.  Don't try to view your experiences from the lens of someone who hasn't experienced them and try to form your degree and all the associated opportunities into your perception of what the adcom wants.  The truth is, you can't guess what they'll think and if you try you'll seem a little fake.  Just be who you are, make the most of your opportunities, and apply to grad school looking to find the right fit.

[Luptior]

On 10/3/2016 at 6:55 PM, biochemgirl67 said:

They are literally telling you that in their opinion, that you don't need to check each box.  That to them (as will be the case for many grad school applications if not all) your background will be tailored to your own "journey."  I might stop looking at requirements and start taking a more holistic approach where I consider each change in your academic plan for a reason.  I've already said that if you feel that your current schedule would be an overload, you shouldn't do it.  I would keep the minor in biology or biochemistry if you can without any effort/minimal effort, because I feel like it underlines your hard work.  I really think you need to stop looking at your degree as "helping" or not.  Just do your Comp Sci degree and take a biology or biochem minor.  You really want to stand out on your LoRs, your SoP, and your research.

On that note, go to a national conference and present if you can!  Super fun to talk about and if you meet some faculty you later interview with, they might remember you.  You school should have scholarships to allow you to go with no cost to you.

A couple grad courses is more than plenty... no need to go overboard.  And at least in my experience, people from LACs have amazing GPAs.  Makes me jealous lol.  But actually being in grad school, I'm here to tell you that everybody's from a different background.  There is no majority or whatnot (although in my particular program EVERYBODY majored in biochem or neuro... kind of funny actually.)

Well, I'm glad you don't view it as negative and maybe you're just freaking out a tad, but don't be worrying if the adcom thinks it's a waste of time.  Did it help you get you where you are?  Yes?  Then it's not a waste time.  Don't try to view your experiences from the lens of someone who hasn't experienced them and try to form your degree and all the associated opportunities into your perception of what the adcom wants.  The truth is, you can't guess what they'll think and if you try you'll seem a little fake.  Just be who you are, make the most of your opportunities, and apply to grad school looking to find the right fit.

Really appreciate your help! Great Thanks!

[Luptior]

On 10/3/2016 at 11:34 AM, ballwera said:

Just from looking at CMU's website it looks like they want student's w/ a basic background in both CS and Bio. However they all state they take students with an either or background and tailor your coursework to an individuals background. If I were you I'd stop paying attention to a specific programs "recommendations", because these will be different for every program and every student applying. This isn't like medical school there is not perfect mold for an applications and there are no real "hard" requirements as far as course load. Focus on your research and keep your GPA up those are the 2 most important things you can do imo..  

Umm, I know I shouldn't just focus on a specific program which is ridiculous but I just want to get more information for this kind of programs, what kind of students they want, what abilities they value... It seems that CMU's website gives the most detailed information so...