Fit vs. Rank

[sociologicalpizza]

So I haven't been accepted to any of my top choices. I haven't been rejected, but I'm not counting on anything at this point either. What do you guys think about choosing a school that's ranked high 20s vs. mid 80s when I feel like the mid 80s school is a better fit? I also just finished my undergrad and applied directly to PhD programs- so I'm considering the possibility of trying to get a MA and reapply to the programs that I really want to go to after, instead of taking one of the PhD offers, if that makes any sense at all idk. I've just been thinking a lot, any input would be helpful.

[Keithkwok]

But you will have to wait, find a job, and reapply for the MA next year?

[sociologicalpizza]

not necessarily, some MA deadlines aren't until June

[farflung]

This depends a lot on your future career plans. Are you hoping for an academic job? In this case, rank is almost always more important than fit -- there are so few tenure-track academic jobs, that you basically need to come from one of the elite PhD-granting schools in order to get one (and even then... well... I won't rant about the state of the academic job market). If you're hoping to work outside of academia, I could see the argument for a lower-ranked school.

If a program is admitting you, they think you're a fit in their department. It is usually smart to go with the highest ranked program that you're admitted to, and that offers you a full funding package. You should not pay for a PhD. It's totally normal to have to apply to graduate programs multiple years in a row to find one that 1) offers funding, 2) is a somewhat highly ranked program, and 3) admits you.

Don't assume an MA will give you any more of a leg up in the process, and don't forget it comes with huge sacrifices -- namely, it's expensive and there is less funding available for MA programs. Why not just take a job and then reapply for PhD programs next year?

[Keithkwok]

If funding is not a problem, I would do an MA first, in case you would severely regret if you went to the high 20s this year and found you did not like the program and people there at all

[Keithkwok]

BTW, how could anybody go to a mid 80s instead of a high 20s? Most people change their areas after they get into the program.

[sociologicalpizza]

5 minutes ago, farflung said:

This depends a lot on your future career plans. Are you hoping for an academic job? In this case, rank is almost always more important than fit -- there are so few tenure-track academic jobs, that you basically need to come from one of the elite PhD-granting schools in order to get one (and even then... well... I won't rant about the state of the academic job market). If you're hoping to work outside of academia, I could see the argument for a lower-ranked school.

If a program is admitting you, they think you're a fit in their department. It is usually smart to go with the highest ranked program that you're admitted to, and that offers you a full funding package. You should not pay for a PhD. It's totally normal to have to apply to graduate programs multiple years in a row to find one that 1) offers funding, 2) is a somewhat highly ranked program, and 3) admits you.

Don't assume an MA will give you any more of a leg up in the process, and don't forget it comes with huge sacrifices -- namely, it's expensive and there is less funding available for MA programs. Why not just take a job and then reapply for PhD programs next year?

academic job 100%, and yeah I mean I've spent the last few days trying to find out where recent PhD recipients from this school end up. I just don't feel super confident about it. But like, what if I turn it down and things aren't any better next application season and then I don't even have this program? It feels foolish to turn it down. 

[sociologicalpizza]

8 minutes ago, Woody Wu said:

BTW, how could anybody go to a mid 80s instead of a high 20s? Most people change their areas after they get into the program.

lmao great point

[farflung]

2 minutes ago, sociologicalpizza said:

academic job 100%, and yeah I mean I've spent the last few days trying to find out where recent PhD recipients from this school end up. I just don't feel super confident about it. But like, what if I turn it down and things aren't any better next application season and then I don't even have this program? It feels foolish to turn it down. 

Nah, I think it's foolish to go to a program that won't get you an academic job if that's what you want. It's fine to turn down offers that really aren't that great, and with more experience out of undergrad , you'll be more likely to get into more prestigious programs.  I recommend this article too, to get a realistic perspective on what graduate school entails: http://theprofessorisin.com/2013/04/12/should-you-go-to-graduate-school/

[oldacct]

I would agree with other posters that there are several considerations to have. Without knowing more information, I would definitely agree that you should go with a school ranked in high 20s vs the one in mid 80s.

Fit does matter, and you do want to have faculty members who will be able to provide you with useful feedback. But eventually, all doctoral students (hopefully) will come to a point where they know more about their specific project than their advisors, if not all other scholars. That said, you want a mentor who know is very well versed in the literature of your broader field.

Personally, since my topic was so specific I only applied to one school with a scholar studying the exact same thing. I chose all the other schools based on professors who had tangentially related topics and where I was interested in taking two field exams. If they did not offer comprehensive exams in areas I was interested in, I did not apply.  

Since you are just coming out of undergrad, I would not rush into paying for an MA If you truly don’t feel that the advisor can provide guidance on your project, than I would reapply to PhD and MA programs next fall with a revised application.

MA degrees cost a lot of money, and I think many would agree that they don’t guarantee getting into a top twenty program or faring better than some people with just their BA.

[sociologicalpizza]

1 hour ago, farflung said:

Nah, I think it's foolish to go to a program that won't get you an academic job if that's what you want. It's fine to turn down offers that really aren't that great, and with more experience out of undergrad , you'll be more likely to get into more prestigious programs.  I recommend this article too, to get a realistic perspective on what graduate school entails: http://theprofessorisin.com/2013/04/12/should-you-go-to-graduate-school/

I realize my perception that you made an assumption that I have no idea what graduate school entails is most likely anxiety and insecurity driven, so thanks for sharing the article. I had some pretty amazing mentors as an undergrad that did a pretty good job of preparing me for the reality of the decision I'm making, as good of a job as any article I've found, including that one. But I mean, how would I gain more experience out of undergrad without being enrolled in some type of program? Any job I worked for the next year and a half wouldn't be in sociology.

[Aucitronvert]

17 minutes ago, sociologicalpizza said:

I realize my perception that you made an assumption that I have no idea what graduate school entails is most likely anxiety and insecurity driven, so thanks for sharing the article. I had some pretty amazing mentors as an undergrad that did a pretty good job of preparing me for the reality of the decision I'm making, as good of a job as any article I've found, including that one. But I mean, how would I gain more experience out of undergrad without being enrolled in some type of program? Any job I worked for the next year and a half wouldn't be in sociology.

I did not have any competitive research experience as an undergrad and am really glad I went with my MA first. Now, even if I get rejected this application year for PhD, I can try to teach/adjunct or get research gigs in my time off which will even further qualify me. I mean, yeah, I'm broke, but I got funded for my MA and am not much worse off financially than when I left undergrad. Now that I've almost got my master's and plans to publish two articles with my advisor, as well as developed research interests, I know I'm a much better candidate for all of my PhD applications. On the flip side of that, I had a friend in undergrad who also attended my mediocre undergrad institution yet had a very prosperous research CV (McNair, published at least one article, held a research job for a year out of undergrad) and she got into the top 50 school I was just rejected from soooo it all depends on so many factors! You said any job you'd work in the next work wouldn't be Soc, but if you could get a research job, that'd speak wonders to you. Also, maybe you'll get an offer for your MA instead of a rejection from a PhD like some places offer (I know U of Oregon does that). 

[sociologicalpizza]

4 minutes ago, Aucitronvert said:

I did not have any competitive research experience as an undergrad and am really glad I went with my MA first. Now, even if I get rejected this application year for PhD, I can try to teach/adjunct or get research gigs in my time off which will even further qualify me. I mean, yeah, I'm broke, but I got funded for my MA and am not much worse off financially than when I left undergrad. Now that I've almost got my master's and plans to publish two articles with my advisor, as well as developed research interests, I know I'm a much better candidate for all of my PhD applications. On the flip side of that, I had a friend in undergrad who also attended my mediocre undergrad institution yet had a very prosperous research CV (McNair, published at least one article, held a research job for a year out of undergrad) and she got into the top 50 school I was just rejected from soooo it all depends on so many factors! You said any job you'd work in the next work wouldn't be Soc, but if you could get a research job, that'd speak wonders to you. Also, maybe you'll get an offer for your MA instead of a rejection from a PhD like some places offer (I know U of Oregon does that). 

I guess getting a research job in soc without being enrolled somewhere isn't something I've heard of before, so I wouldn't know where to begin looking for that. At a university? My undergrad institution certainly wouldn't have hired somebody from outside for anything, but maybe other schools are different.

[farflung]

10 minutes ago, sociologicalpizza said:

I realize my perception that you made an assumption that I have no idea what graduate school entails is most likely anxiety and insecurity driven, so thanks for sharing the article. I had some pretty amazing mentors as an undergrad that did a pretty good job of preparing me for the reality of the decision I'm making, as good of a job as any article I've found, including that one. But I mean, how would I gain more experience out of undergrad without being enrolled in some type of program? Any job I worked for the next year and a half wouldn't be in sociology.

Great that you have mentors! I shared the article because it has helped me think through what I did and did not know as a 20-something when I applied for graduate school, and because I hope it will be equally helpful to other people. I think work experience-- of any kind-- can be quite valuable to PhD programs, as can being a year or two removed from your BA program. This isn't to say that further school isn't valuable, it's merely to say that grad programs DO value life and work experience if you decide to go that route, even outside of academia. You do not need to feel pressured to pay for an MA to get into PhD programs, you have options. Working can show your ability to adapt to professional workplaces and grit/ability to support yourself outside of college-- this establishes some distance from the undergraduate students you'll be teaching. It also shows that you're entering graduate school because you've really thought about it, not because you're simply graduating from your BA/MA, are smart, and don't know what to do next (not saying this is what you're doing, but it is quite common among students coming straight from their BA and it's generally not a great sign for their well-being in grad school). In my program, professionalism and maturity are among the most important qualities we look for in potential PhD students. Working is one way that you can demonstrate these qualities. 

[Aucitronvert]

8 minutes ago, sociologicalpizza said:

I guess getting a research job in soc without being enrolled somewhere isn't something I've heard of before, so I wouldn't know where to begin looking for that. At a university? My undergrad institution certainly wouldn't have hired somebody from outside for anything, but maybe other schools are different.

At a university, private research firm, state, county or city level research and data analyst positions. The VA used to hire a lot of researchers in my city but under our new administration that will likely diminish this year. My friend that I mentioned worked at a research firm at our undergrad institution after graduating. I tried to do the same at the social work department but didn't get in (I think they only hired, you guessed it, social workers). I worked at DHS administering food stamps for my year off and was able to emphasize the need for research and policy centered around poverty and marginalized populations based on that 'non-Soc' job. 

[oldacct]

7 minutes ago, sociologicalpizza said:

I guess getting a research job in soc without being enrolled somewhere isn't something I've heard of before, so I wouldn't know where to begin looking for that. At a university? My undergrad institution certainly wouldn't have hired somebody from outside for anything, but maybe other schools are different.

Just for some context, I am also going into school with just my BA, and I graduated from a college that is not very prestigious. I took off three years doing unrelated work but spent about 6 months re-familiarizing myself with the literature before applying. I believe my SOP and LORs are the main reasons I was accepted. If you have strong LORs and can write strong essays, you may not need a MA/research position. But I'm sure both may be of help and can be rewarding.

Also, your undergrad faculty advisers may be able to give you the best advice since they are likely more aware of your strengths/weaknesses as an applicant. 

[theorynetworkculture]

The advice I hear is that rank holds priority over fit. Academia is too status-driven for us to think otherwise (Burris 2004, great article on the "academic caste system").  Fit can and should be taken into account within the same ranking bracket, i.e. it'd make sense to consider fit if you're picking among the top 15 schools, but it might be unwise for your career if you picked a top 30 school over the top 15 because of fit. 

[sociologicalpizza]

11 minutes ago, farflung said:

Great that you have mentors! I shared the article because it has helped me think through what I did and did not know as a 20-something when I applied for graduate school, and because I hope it will be equally helpful to other people. I think work experience-- of any kind-- can be quite valuable to PhD programs, as can being a year or two removed from your BA program. This isn't to say that further school isn't valuable, it's merely to say that grad programs DO value life and work experience if you decide to go that route, even outside of academia. You do not need to feel pressured to pay for an MA to get into PhD programs, you have options. Working can show your ability to adapt to professional workplaces and grit/ability to support yourself outside of college-- this establishes some distance from the undergraduate students you'll be teaching. It also shows that you're entering graduate school because you've really thought about it, not because you're simply graduating from your BA/MA, are smart, and don't know what to do next (not saying this is what you're doing, but it is quite common among students coming straight from their BA and it's generally not a great sign for their well-being in grad school). In my program, professionalism and maturity are among the most important qualities we look for in potential PhD students. Working is one way that you can demonstrate these qualities. 

Sigh. Thanks for your time and advice. I've been working since I was fifteen, if they're worried about my professionalism... well, it would be funny if it wasn't so monumentally frustrating. I could definitely write a better SOP, that's probably the one thing I've gotten from this forum the most is that mine was a bit flat. Apparently (according to your helpful article) I'm very cliche. Convincing my parents that waiting a year is a smart move is going to be rough, but I'm starting to feel like I should.

3 minutes ago, Aucitronvert said:

At a university, private research firm, state, county or city level research and data analyst positions. The VA used to hire a lot of researchers in my city but under our new administration that will likely diminish this year. My friend that I mentioned worked at a research firm at our undergrad institution after graduating. I tried to do the same at the social work department but didn't get in (I think they only hired, you guessed it, social workers). I worked at DHS administering food stamps for my year off and was able to emphasize the need for research and policy centered around poverty and marginalized populations based on that 'non-Soc' job. 

Yeah good point, the job I'm in now is tangentially related to my research interests and I could surely tie it in to a revised SOP next year.

[c11m07]

1 hour ago, sociologicals said:

Just for some context, I am also going into school with just my BA, and I graduated from a college that is not very prestigious. I took off three years doing unrelated work but spent about 6 months re-familiarizing myself with the literature before applying. I believe my SOP and LORs are the main reasons I was accepted. If you have strong LORs and can write strong essays, you may not need a MA/research position. But I'm sure both may be of help and can be rewarding.

Also, your undergrad faculty advisers may be able to give you the best advice since they are likely more aware of your strengths/weaknesses as an applicant. 

I want to echo this experience as well. I don't have any formal research experience beyond coursework as an undergrad (no thesis, publications, etc.). Research experience is of course valuable, but if you're looking to strengthen your application for the next cycle, I think that your SOP is the place to focus your energy. I have no idea what your stats are, but if your GPA is decent and your GREs are above a certain threshold, so much of it comes down to fit, which of course is communicated in your SOP. After an unsuccessful season last year, I cast a wider net and applied to 12 schools, focusing on top notch schools that were the best fit  for me (10 of the 12 schools I applied to are top 20 precisely because of what's been reiterated here about the importance of rank). The only real difference in my application is that I picked schools that were a better fit and I tried to be very clear and thoughtful about why each school in particular would be a good fit for me. I'd warn against trying to make your SOP "pop" too much, as that can come off as gimmicky. A thoughtful, detailed explanation of why you're excited about each program in particular as well as what you could bring to the department makes a big difference. 

 

For my two cents, I would say it probably makes sense to rule out the school that's ranked in the 80s. But visit the school in the 20s, see if you'd be excited to go there after talking with faculty and current grad students, and investigate their placement record (which it sounds like you have been doing). My point is that I wouldn't write it off just yet, but at the same time you can apply next year with very different results if ultimately you aren't excited about the higher ranked program you've been accepted to. I think it's (unfortunately) hard to overstate the importance of rank, but I think it's a mistake to commit the next 5-8 years of your life to a program that you're lukewarm about. 

[draco.malfoy]

If you didn't get in to the program that you wanted (great fit and top ranked) this year, why not start at the program you were accepted to, and then transfer? I had a friend do that. They started at the only program they were admitted to and then the first semester, they immediately started applying again to the better programs. They were admitted, and transferred.

[sociologicalpizza]

20 minutes ago, draco.malfoy said:

If you didn't get in to the program that you wanted (great fit and top ranked) this year, why not start at the program you were accepted to, and then transfer? I had a friend do that. They started at the only program they were admitted to and then the first semester, they immediately started applying again to the better programs. They were admitted, and transferred.

I actually wasn't sure if transferring PhD programs was a thing or not. Would I be starting over at the school I transferred to, but my credits would just transfer in? Similar to a MA student beginning a PhD program? Is that normal.. I would just reapply as usual, explaining why I felt like the transfer institution was a better fit?

[socapp2017]

2 hours ago, sociologicalpizza said:

I actually wasn't sure if transferring PhD programs was a thing or not. Would I be starting over at the school I transferred to, but my credits would just transfer in? Similar to a MA student beginning a PhD program? Is that normal.. I would just reapply as usual, explaining why I felt like the transfer institution was a better fit?

It's possible, but it's also pretty risky. For one thing, you'll need to look for support (i.e., get a letter of rec) from a professor at your first PhD program if you want to maximize your chances of success to a better program. That's obviously not impossible but can be tricky to navigate - I mean, you are basically saying you want their help to go to a different PhD program.

And it's also risky because if you don't get in...well now, you're stuck at a place where you tried to leave. And especially if word gets around that you tried to leave their program, that's also not great in many ways.

As for credits, I wouldn't really worry about that, especially not at this point. And it's also something idiosyncratic depending on each program (e.g., Michigan might approve the credits from your theory course from Penn State, but Berkeley may say no), so I wouldn't really be too concerned about that.

[teamster]

On 2/14/2017 at 4:48 AM, draco.malfoy said:

If you didn't get in to the program that you wanted (great fit and top ranked) this year, why not start at the program you were accepted to, and then transfer? I had a friend do that. They started at the only program they were admitted to and then the first semester, they immediately started applying again to the better programs. They were admitted, and transferred.

 

 

What is the general attitude towards transferring? Yale was my number one choice, and I had a really good back and forth conversation with an amazing POI-- so it was a huge shock to get rejected. He sent me an email hoping that I had submitted my application, as he is eager to work with me.

I've been rejected everywhere else, except for one school which I've yet to hear from. If I get in would it look bad to transfer? There is a professor there who reached out to me based on my proposed project. So I would hate to lead him on, then let him down by applying elsewhere only one semester into the program. 

My situation is further complicated by the fact that if I don't accept an offer this year, I will lose one of my biggest scholarships. So if I get in ANYWHERE at this point, I have to take it, if I want to get funding for the entire duration of my program. 

 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2017 by teamster

[draco.malfoy]

On 3/12/2017 at 11:01 AM, teamster said:

What is the general attitude towards transferring? Yale was my number one choice, and I had a really good back and forth conversation with an amazing POI-- so it was a huge shock to get rejected. He sent me an email hoping that I had submitted my application, as he is eager to work with me.

I've been rejected everywhere else, except for one school which I've yet to hear from. If I get in would it look bad to transfer? There is a professor there who reached out to me based on my proposed project. So I would hate to lead him on, then let him down by applying elsewhere only one semester into the program. 

My situation is further complicated by the fact that if I don't accept an offer this year, I will lose one of my biggest scholarships. So if I get in ANYWHERE at this point, I have to take it, if I want to get funding for the entire duration of my program. 

 

 

 

Sorry that I missed this. Did you get accepted to the last program you were waiting on?

[teamster]

On 3/25/2017 at 9:26 PM, draco.malfoy said:

Sorry that I missed this. Did you get accepted to the last program you were waiting on?

No worries! I'm still waiting to hear back from the final school. 

I did send an email to the POI at Yale. But no response yet, either. Though, to be fair, they were all on spring break and only just started back up on Monday. So I'm still holding out for some bit of good news-- even if it's just a suggestion to meet!