rhetoricus aesalon

Dear arty13,
 
There are many reasons to conclude why you were not accepted, some include:
 
You are too much of a god damn idiot to realize GPA will affect your credibility in a graduate program. Even though many would agree that GPA is not the best indicator of success, you honestly weren't smart enough to just go with it anyway for the sake of your future. Smart people realize this, and thus have secured their spot in your intended program at Berkeley. You managed to convince the PI at Berkeley that you're a little shithead without realizing it. You applied to only one graduate program. You assume anyone at Berkeley gives a shit about what you have done in comparison to what you will do with them. Noone wants to get headaches from working with a god damn pirck all day, whether or not he/she is right sometimes. I have (as I assume many here have) concluded that you likely have a severe case of autism; please get this checked out for the sake of everyone here.

I'm coming to this conversation a bit late, so my apologies if anyone has already suggested these listervs:

GWPA-L http://rhetorike.org/mailman/listinfo/gwpa-l_rhetorike.org
TechRhet http://www.interversity.org/lists/techrhet/
ATTW http://www.attw.org/connect/listserv
CPSTC https://lists.unomaha.edu/mailman/listinfo/cptsc
WAC-L http://www.lsoft.com/scripts/wl.exe?SL1=WAC-L&H=LISTSERV.ILLINOIS.EDU

Of course, these are the ones I'm familiar to because they are in line with my interests. WPA-L is by far the most active, and while it isn't quite as active as it once was, it's definitely my go-to, with TechRhet at a close second. Listervs are kind of an interesting phenomena in higher ed. Despite great advances in social media and connectivity since the early 90's when they came about, it's surprising that we still rely on them for a great deal of important conversations in our field. Some of them have unfortunately fallen out of use over the years, like the Alliance for Computers and Writing listserv (ACW-L). That said, I think TechRhet is definitely essential if you're interested in getting into computers and writing work, though it's actually not that active (or at least hasn't been lately).

It's not quite like a listserv, but you should check out HASTAC if you haven't already. They have an excellent social network designed for academics. You might also want to look into their Scholars program, which is an even better way to network. I'm part of the working groups in Rhetoric and Composition as well as Digital Literacies, and it's so far been a great way to connect and collaborate with PhD students in programs across the country.

If anyone has suggestions for other networks or listservs, I'd be grateful if you posted them here.

Looking forward to it! I can introduce you around. Plus if you want to meet anybody from the larger network-- Kathleen Yancey, Paul Matsuda, David Blakeslee, Shirley Rose, etc etc-- let me know.

Of course. I'm looking forward to making connections, regardless of my final decision. In this profession, we rely on our colleagues across universities so much. You never know when you'll need to call on a colleague to form a conference panel or read your dissertation. Networking is a lovely thing.

When this season began, I suspected that we share some research interests. I think I'm presenting at Cs on Saturday (morning?). Will you be at the Bedford party?

And creep on, my friend. This decision is like choosing a partner. Leave nothing uncreeped.

Thanks, Zinc! At any rate, I'm stoked to meet some Purdue peeps at Cs. And maybe I'll roll out to W Lafayette to visit the campus while I'm in Indiana. Interaction with names and faces can go a long way towards helping us make the right decisions.

Also, speaking of the WPA listserv, which I just learned about in this convo, what other rhet/comp themed list servs are out there, waiting for me to join?
 
I recently joined the Disability Studies in the Humanities listserv, and I love hearing about what's going on in DS in other departments. 

Last year, I took the jump after teaching for three years and applied to rhet/comp programs. I ended up getting into five. Of those five, four were big name programs with big cohorts (Illinois, Miami, Arizona, UMass Amherst), while Maryland was a small program. Long story short, I chose Maryland, but not because of its size. In fact, the size of the student cohort was the only con on the Maryland list. Fortunately, despite the small group of rhet/comp students (we have six. Total.), we have as many rhet/comp faculty as the big programs. Faculty size is important, because you will want your choice of faculty to work with, and you don't want to have to choose between three professors, and then one retires. Now that I am here, I still better the pros and cons about a small program. The cons are the lack of rhet/comp community and rhet/comp coursework. However, I have found ways to work around this challenges. The six rhet/comp students in the English department are tightknit and supportive, and I am very close with my fellow first year English PhD's. And thanks to an interdisciplinary, cross-campus seminar last semester, I also have close colleagues in the UMD Communication Department and Penn State. As for coursework, I quickly discovered that most grad departments don't offer a wide array of coursework, regardless of the focus. I have worked around this by taking every single rhet/comp class offered by the English Department, doing independent studies, sitting in on rhetoric-focused undergrad classes, and taking classes in the Communications department. 
 
There are the pros of a small program. You certainly don't get lost in the mix! As the only rhet/comp PhD student enter last year, I got so much wonderful attention from the faculty. I imagine some large programs also manage to shower their incoming students with attention, but I imagine it's harder for the faculty to show consistently focused on six students. Also, we get our choice of classes to teach, once we are further along in our career, we can easily choose to do an administrative position, like Assistant Director of the Writing Program, without much competition. 
 
I'm at a small program and am quite happy, but ultimately, I don't know if I can weigh in on small versus large. There are good and bad, and even though size of the program was a consideration, it wasn't a deciding factor. I chose UMD despite the small size because of the funding, teaching load, faculty, resources, and great environment. 
 
I was just like you! My BA and MA are both in literature, so even though I had taken one class in composition and taught comp for three years, I felt desperately behind from the day I got my first acceptance letter. The good news is that many people come in with little to no training in rhet/comp. The other good news is that most large programs will offer or even mandate introductory coursework that will quickly put everyone on the same page. 
 
I noticed quickly that rhetoric and literary study are not that different, in terms of methodology. Lots of close reading, though with different vocabulary and a slightly different lens. Composition, however, is another beast, and there are so many qualitative and quantitate methods that will be new to you. Last semester, I took the required Introduction to College Composition course that all teaching grad students are required to take; then, I met with the professor every other week to do extra readings on methods and methodology in composition. It was immensely helpful. Your program will most likely provide this sort of education, and if it doesn't, you can most likely find opportunities to get this experience and education like I did.
 
If you are anxious about not having read enough material, was posted here last year; I've kept in bookmarked. I also asked my main point of contact for a reading list before the semester started, and she sent me a small rhet/comp starter kit. 
 
I still have so much to learn (I just read Aristotle for the first time!), but I am definitely getting the hang out of it. I'm presenting at Computers and Writing in June, and I'm working with a professor to turn a seminar paper into an article. So, it's definitely possible to come from a literature world and succeed in a rhet/comp universe. 

Boom. 

Convinced me.

Save your money and come to Pullman in June. My travel funds just got approved and I think I'm doing one of the opening panels.

They may just seem that way. Grading all those papers adds years to their appearance.

Again, I don't think that anyone claims that people from outside of the top-tier programs never get jobs. Nor do I think anyone is saying that you should only consider top 20 programs. And yes, there are many individual professors from outside of the top programs who have gotten jobs. None of that changes the reality that all else being equal and in general, people from the most prestigious programs have the best job prospects and enjoy a significant advantage on the academic job market.

I'm not going to devote my time or energy to responding to whatever that was above. Disagreeing is one thing, ignorance and blind hatred is another. I feel really sorry for you that something that was not directed at you upset you so much. 
 
As I think we're all aware (and I'm speaking about myself at this point), tone is hard to convey over the internet. I hope it's very clear to everyone that I don't have any particular issue with anyone on this board. My "dude" and "bro" comments were sarcastic. Also, I hope Toe (the fact that that's a shortening for your username is funny) knows that my own feelings about rankings have nothing to do with me trying to tell people that everyone should think the way that I do--I'm only giving my opinion from my own personal experience. I think you might have missed it, but I complimented Toe (ugh) saying that I thought (he? she?) probably had a good overall packet that lead to acceptance. 
 
I don't even know what to write at this point, haha. I read the post and just started laughing. I think this thread has provided a lot of good discussion and back-and-forth over a topic that's widely debated and has many different viewpoints. I don't believe one of them (including my own) to be the "right" one, but I think they all provide insight toward the process of choosing schools to apply to and choosing schools to attend. 
 
For that reason, I think the thread should remain up. 
 
If I, as a female, wasted my time responding to every instance of misogyny and ignorance I face daily I wouldn't have time to breathe. I guess this just goes to show that being a grad school applicant doesn't necessarily make you intelligent...or even a decent person. 

Never got this vibe from Arthurian. I actually find her super articulate and passionate, which is totally okay to be. Right?

Thanks bro and of course congratulations dude. Also, I'm a female. All I know is that I'm glad that I have professors that care about me who are writing for me. I have also, as of last night, been admitted to a top program (in the twenties, I've discovered), so let's not assume that just because I advocate for people ignoring rankings and finding a good fit for them that that must somehow mean that I have no interest in any other programs. 
 
Obviously, my sentiments don't apply to someone who ardently believe in rankings because, well, I'm responding to the post at large and not trying to sway someone with a strong opinion. Also, do you really think one person's letter did the job for you? I'm sure you had a strong packet as a whole. 

I can see that you feel defensive about this, so I apologize for that because it certainly wasn't my intention to make my disagreeing with some of your points make you feel like a child. 
 
I actually agree with what you are essentially saying here, but I do think you actually make some additional claims about attending school beyond just wanting to be a student, and in these cases I am scared (me personally, not in a scolding you for thinking this way kind of scared) because we can never really know what a hiring committee favors, and if there is a possibility of adding prestige on top of the many other qualities that will make an application shine, why not use it to your advantage?

I can see that you feel defensive about this, so I apologize for that because it certainly wasn't my intention to make my disagreeing with some of your points make you feel like a child. 
 
I actually agree with what you are essentially saying here, but I do think you actually make some additional claims about attending school beyond just wanting to be a student, and in these cases I am scared (me personally, not in a scolding you for thinking this way kind of scared) because we can never really know what a hiring committee favors, and if there is a possibility of adding prestige on top of the many other qualities that will make an application shine, why not use it to your advantage?

What a thought! If you want a tenure track job, just work hard and network! I don't think that's exactly what you meant, but that's the feeling I'm getting here ... and it scares me. 
 
I won't pretend like I don't love this post because I do. I really, really do. But I also think it's odd to suggest that prestige doesn't matter when applying to jobs. The harsh truth is that most of us will never have a tenure-track placement, and I for one am going for programs that will make me as marketable as possible. I can (and will) do good work in many places. But, maybe lit differs from rhet/comp a bit like that?
 
Maybe I can phrase this a different way. You're applying to a tenure-track opening. 600 others are applying for the same position. What will make you stand out in the 6 seconds the hiring committee looks at your application? Prestige may not get you that job, but I certainly think it would help in this context.

What a thought! If you want a tenure track job, just work hard and network! I don't think that's exactly what you meant, but that's the feeling I'm getting here ... and it scares me. 
 
I won't pretend like I don't love this post because I do. I really, really do. But I also think it's odd to suggest that prestige doesn't matter when applying to jobs. The harsh truth is that most of us will never have a tenure-track placement, and I for one am going for programs that will make me as marketable as possible. I can (and will) do good work in many places. But, maybe lit differs from rhet/comp a bit like that?
 
Maybe I can phrase this a different way. You're applying to a tenure-track opening. 600 others are applying for the same position. What will make you stand out in the 6 seconds the hiring committee looks at your application? Prestige may not get you that job, but I certainly think it would help in this context.

Mine hasn't updated, but I'm also just English lit. I hope this isn't bad news for me. Last year they contacted people about interviews first.

Really would like to get in here. Crossing my fingers...! Congrats to you and the other acceptance!

In my observation, the tension isn't between lit and rhet/comp because of the cash cow aspect or the content aspect; that was certainly the case in the past, as you can read about in Stephen North's The Making of Knowledge in Composition. Rather, the growing rift in English Departments, and one we should be aware of as academic workers, is between contingent faculty and administration (with TT faculty siding with one group or another or none at all). Comp classes tend to be taught by adjunct labor, however with the market as it is today, those teachers are not all rhet/comp scholars, but also lit MA and PhD's and creative writing MFA's. Furthermore, the majority of teaching staff in English departments is contingent. If you followed the live tweeting from MLA 2014, you probably noticed that lots of resentment and discussion came out of the low attendance on the panel about contingent faculty. Concurrently, a shadow conference emerged, MLA Subconference, that confronted labor issues and the trajectory of English and other humanities departments. 
 
One crisis always seems to either help us resolve a former conflict or at least ignore it for the time being. Any sense of competition between literature and rhet/comp as areas of study has lessened as the concerns about labor issues and quality of life take center stage. 

Completely love this conversation, and I just wanted to say that I am very glad to have your voice as a comm student here.
 
I've been studying rhetoric for 8 years now (all my degrees are rhet/comp equivalents), and I think I've learned that even though division of fields (and sub-fields) is important, I'm usually delighted by how much more we have in common than we might initially think. I'm also really intrigued by your drawing out of "do" vs. "studying" because--to be honest--I'm not sure which you would apply to which ... I think for rhet/comp there is an interest in both, with the addition that there is also the felt need to teach how to do it, as well as teach how to interpret when and how to do it.
 
IMHO the main contexts differ in that comm usually interprets language as it is spoken vs. rhet/comp that tends toward the interpretation of language that is written or composed. This may be pigeon-holing both fields a bit, but in general I think comm gravitates toward speech and rhet/comp toward composition.
 
I also really love that rhet/comp, creative writing, and literature often get all thrown together--though sadly this is becoming less and less the norm. I think the three really compliment each other, and all are expanding on what composition is and what composition can do. I think, in a sense, we all need each other--though maybe it doesn't always feel that way.
 
 
TL;DR
 
All our fields rock, and I hope I can spend my life as a scholar learning where they each intersect and disconnect.

Completely love this conversation, and I just wanted to say that I am very glad to have your voice as a comm student here.
 
I've been studying rhetoric for 8 years now (all my degrees are rhet/comp equivalents), and I think I've learned that even though division of fields (and sub-fields) is important, I'm usually delighted by how much more we have in common than we might initially think. I'm also really intrigued by your drawing out of "do" vs. "studying" because--to be honest--I'm not sure which you would apply to which ... I think for rhet/comp there is an interest in both, with the addition that there is also the felt need to teach how to do it, as well as teach how to interpret when and how to do it.
 
IMHO the main contexts differ in that comm usually interprets language as it is spoken vs. rhet/comp that tends toward the interpretation of language that is written or composed. This may be pigeon-holing both fields a bit, but in general I think comm gravitates toward speech and rhet/comp toward composition.
 
I also really love that rhet/comp, creative writing, and literature often get all thrown together--though sadly this is becoming less and less the norm. I think the three really compliment each other, and all are expanding on what composition is and what composition can do. I think, in a sense, we all need each other--though maybe it doesn't always feel that way.
 
 
TL;DR
 
All our fields rock, and I hope I can spend my life as a scholar learning where they each intersect and disconnect.

Completely love this conversation, and I just wanted to say that I am very glad to have your voice as a comm student here.
 
I've been studying rhetoric for 8 years now (all my degrees are rhet/comp equivalents), and I think I've learned that even though division of fields (and sub-fields) is important, I'm usually delighted by how much more we have in common than we might initially think. I'm also really intrigued by your drawing out of "do" vs. "studying" because--to be honest--I'm not sure which you would apply to which ... I think for rhet/comp there is an interest in both, with the addition that there is also the felt need to teach how to do it, as well as teach how to interpret when and how to do it.
 
IMHO the main contexts differ in that comm usually interprets language as it is spoken vs. rhet/comp that tends toward the interpretation of language that is written or composed. This may be pigeon-holing both fields a bit, but in general I think comm gravitates toward speech and rhet/comp toward composition.
 
I also really love that rhet/comp, creative writing, and literature often get all thrown together--though sadly this is becoming less and less the norm. I think the three really compliment each other, and all are expanding on what composition is and what composition can do. I think, in a sense, we all need each other--though maybe it doesn't always feel that way.
 
 
TL;DR
 
All our fields rock, and I hope I can spend my life as a scholar learning where they each intersect and disconnect.

BowTiesAreCool, here is my remedy to the angst. Hope it helps. (Can you tell I have a cold, and am therefore avoiding doing all and any work right now?)
 
GRAD SCHOOL APPLICATIONS: As told by puppies.
 
You started this cycle by throwing yourself into your applications, reaching for the dream of an acceptance letter.
 

 
Applications took everything you had, leaving you in a dazed state. 
 

 
Now, you are on the waiting period, moving frantically with no destination in sight...
 

 
Trying to find ways to distract yourself from your email...
 

 
And attacking any friend or family member who claims confidently, "You're gonna get into all the schools!"
 

 
But eventually you'll hear some good news, and you will love the DGS more than you've ever loved anyone before.
 

 
It's pretty much the greatest feeling, the feeling of being wanted.
 

 
Then, in a few months time, you'll be starting the PhD student journey alongside new friends who are nervous, thrilled, and curious, just like you.
 

 
And if it doesn't happen this year, it will happen when it's time. Lots of us here had multiple rounds before ending up where we wanted.
 

 
Until then, here are a bunch of puppies to make the waiting easier.