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TheCrow

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  1. Upvote
    TheCrow got a reaction from Gbaut003 in MSW programs that have accepted below 3.0 GPA   
    Actually, social work admissions are weird. There are basics two trends: highly selective public universities where everyone pays basically the same and private universities (often higher ranked) that admit a far higher percentage of applicants, but give reasonable funding to a much smaller pool.  With a low GPA, I bet you're more likely to get into Columbia for an MSW than Portland State.
  2. Like
    TheCrow got a reaction from londonrain9 in Working full-time while doing MSW?   
    I think a big part of it is whether the school will let you do a field placement at your current employer, because field placements are not usually available outside of work hours. This means, of course, that it's probably impossible to work full time while getting an MSW if you work somewhere completely unrelated to social services.
  3. Like
    TheCrow got a reaction from doctormelody in Working full-time while doing MSW?   
    I think a big part of it is whether the school will let you do a field placement at your current employer, because field placements are not usually available outside of work hours. This means, of course, that it's probably impossible to work full time while getting an MSW if you work somewhere completely unrelated to social services.
  4. Like
    TheCrow got a reaction from MettaSutta in How commonplace are paid fieldwork internships?   
    Columbia has traditionally used federal work-study to pay students for field placements, but there are some unresolved issues about whether CSWE's accreditation standard even allow for paid field placements (due to an overreaction CSWE had to a prior situation where students were placed in placements at for-profit places, and CSWE wants to be very clear that field placements aren't a job, as a result), so I'm not sure what's happening these days. Most other schools don't usually have paid field placements.
  5. Like
    TheCrow got a reaction from doctormelody in How commonplace are paid fieldwork internships?   
    Columbia has traditionally used federal work-study to pay students for field placements, but there are some unresolved issues about whether CSWE's accreditation standard even allow for paid field placements (due to an overreaction CSWE had to a prior situation where students were placed in placements at for-profit places, and CSWE wants to be very clear that field placements aren't a job, as a result), so I'm not sure what's happening these days. Most other schools don't usually have paid field placements.
  6. Upvote
    TheCrow got a reaction from lincoln.hawks in Getting more $$ from schools??   
    I would email them and indicate that XYZ school is your first choice, but Peer School offered you more, and ask them if they could match. Note that Columbia just doesn't grant that much financial aid for their MSW.
  7. Upvote
    TheCrow got a reaction from lincoln.hawks in Appealing financial aid   
    Columbia has a fairly high acceptance rate and doesn't grant much scholarship/grant funding at all.
  8. Like
    TheCrow got a reaction from doctormelody in Getting more $$ from schools??   
    I would email them and indicate that XYZ school is your first choice, but Peer School offered you more, and ask them if they could match. Note that Columbia just doesn't grant that much financial aid for their MSW.
  9. Like
    TheCrow got a reaction from louise86 in Research-intensive MSW programs?   
    What are your goals after your MSW? I was in the same boat. I went to UChicago, push hard to get out of the required research courses (such I could take more advanced courses in other parts of the university). Ultimately, I just didn't find that there was enough time in the day to do research, and there was basically only one available field placement that was real research. Honestly, I'm not sure that the PhD in social work is rigorous enough for real research in many cases. I published and got a research grant while in my MSW program, but only by working solely with faculty outside of social work.
    One recommendation I would have, as you think about your goals, is to separate what credentials you need from what skills you need. As a credential, UChicago is great and so is Columbia (which you can do online). Neither master's program is likely to teach you much about research, but you can also push for that training outside of the formal curriculum. 
    If you do not need licensure in social work, it may also be prudent to consider other options. I think UPenn's social work school offers a non-MSW master's in social policy. 
    I see you are in Ohio. I would make sure to also look at Case Western, since they seem to have more funding than many other schools and more research opportunities than many other programs. Another consideration is, again, your goals. A degree from a lot of top name schools can be very expensive, and may not be worth it if you're not interested to moving to somewhere like Chicago or DC.
     
  10. Like
    TheCrow got a reaction from lunary in Research-intensive MSW programs?   
    What are your goals after your MSW? I was in the same boat. I went to UChicago, push hard to get out of the required research courses (such I could take more advanced courses in other parts of the university). Ultimately, I just didn't find that there was enough time in the day to do research, and there was basically only one available field placement that was real research. Honestly, I'm not sure that the PhD in social work is rigorous enough for real research in many cases. I published and got a research grant while in my MSW program, but only by working solely with faculty outside of social work.
    One recommendation I would have, as you think about your goals, is to separate what credentials you need from what skills you need. As a credential, UChicago is great and so is Columbia (which you can do online). Neither master's program is likely to teach you much about research, but you can also push for that training outside of the formal curriculum. 
    If you do not need licensure in social work, it may also be prudent to consider other options. I think UPenn's social work school offers a non-MSW master's in social policy. 
    I see you are in Ohio. I would make sure to also look at Case Western, since they seem to have more funding than many other schools and more research opportunities than many other programs. Another consideration is, again, your goals. A degree from a lot of top name schools can be very expensive, and may not be worth it if you're not interested to moving to somewhere like Chicago or DC.
     
  11. Upvote
    TheCrow got a reaction from stheart in Macro Programs - Comparisons UChicago, UIUC, etc   
    I am a UChicago alum and I disagree with listing an MSW behind your name if that's not the name of the degree you actually received (and we're not the only ones - Columbia and Case Western grant theirs as an MS). However, you will be eligible for licensure, and that will make it clear to people inside and outside the discipline. It seems extremely ridiculous to me that in many states one would be something like CashewGuy, MSW, LMSW.  We get it. You have a master's degree in social work, and you're licensed. 
    One thing I would also caution people on is to think about what their goals are. Chicago is a politics city, not a policy city, for example. If you want to work to impact change in the city after graduation, I'm not sure policy skills or degree prestige are actually valued as much as people think. But if you want to do policy at the federal level, which is where a lot of the policy work really is, prestige really helps. Also, there are a lot of federal agencies in Chicago, and I was able to work at one for both years of my time at SSA (and I work at one now that I've graduated).
    It's a difficult trade off because there's often not a clear choice. It doesn't make sense for someone who wants to be a therapist to go 100k in debt for an MSW. But prestige may be important in certain career paths, particularly policy. But you're going to need to aim for a certain subset of jobs to justify the cost. I will also warn you that my experience was that the UChicago name opens doors, but the SSA degree does not necessarily teach you what you need to get a particular policy/administrative job or to do it well. You have to make sure you're in the driver's seat of your own career path, rather than just sort of showing up and hoping someone hires you afterwards. I think this is grad school in generally, but it's especially true for fields where the labor market isn't as directly organized as something like nursing or computer science. 
    Some advice I heard about the JD/MSW is that you're either going to be hired as a lawyer or as a social worker, but not as both at the same time. And unfortunately, the law path requires a lot more debt (and is much more prestige obsessed) than social work. Law school admissions is also basically 100% your LSAT and undergraduate GPA, and nothing else. Going to a top 10-14 law school is really difficult and expensive, but is one of the clearest paths to well-paid policy work with real impact. If you're not able to get into one of those programs, you're almost definitely better off going to a night or weekend JD while working full-time. And unless you actually plan on practicing law, you're probably better off getting a different degree from a higher status school if you want to get into policy.
    Just my two cents.
  12. Like
    TheCrow got a reaction from cafelatte08 in Macro Programs - Comparisons UChicago, UIUC, etc   
    I am a UChicago alum and I disagree with listing an MSW behind your name if that's not the name of the degree you actually received (and we're not the only ones - Columbia and Case Western grant theirs as an MS). However, you will be eligible for licensure, and that will make it clear to people inside and outside the discipline. It seems extremely ridiculous to me that in many states one would be something like CashewGuy, MSW, LMSW.  We get it. You have a master's degree in social work, and you're licensed. 
    One thing I would also caution people on is to think about what their goals are. Chicago is a politics city, not a policy city, for example. If you want to work to impact change in the city after graduation, I'm not sure policy skills or degree prestige are actually valued as much as people think. But if you want to do policy at the federal level, which is where a lot of the policy work really is, prestige really helps. Also, there are a lot of federal agencies in Chicago, and I was able to work at one for both years of my time at SSA (and I work at one now that I've graduated).
    It's a difficult trade off because there's often not a clear choice. It doesn't make sense for someone who wants to be a therapist to go 100k in debt for an MSW. But prestige may be important in certain career paths, particularly policy. But you're going to need to aim for a certain subset of jobs to justify the cost. I will also warn you that my experience was that the UChicago name opens doors, but the SSA degree does not necessarily teach you what you need to get a particular policy/administrative job or to do it well. You have to make sure you're in the driver's seat of your own career path, rather than just sort of showing up and hoping someone hires you afterwards. I think this is grad school in generally, but it's especially true for fields where the labor market isn't as directly organized as something like nursing or computer science. 
    Some advice I heard about the JD/MSW is that you're either going to be hired as a lawyer or as a social worker, but not as both at the same time. And unfortunately, the law path requires a lot more debt (and is much more prestige obsessed) than social work. Law school admissions is also basically 100% your LSAT and undergraduate GPA, and nothing else. Going to a top 10-14 law school is really difficult and expensive, but is one of the clearest paths to well-paid policy work with real impact. If you're not able to get into one of those programs, you're almost definitely better off going to a night or weekend JD while working full-time. And unless you actually plan on practicing law, you're probably better off getting a different degree from a higher status school if you want to get into policy.
    Just my two cents.
  13. Upvote
    TheCrow got a reaction from louise86 in Merit Aid for MSW Programs   
    FAFSA is for government aid. Generally speaking, there is no grant-based need/scholarships from the government for graduate school.
    I would think about your professional goals. 55k/year is more than most social workers make. By returning for a full-time program, you're not likely to end the program with a job that pays substantially more. Also, not only do you have to pay for the MSW program, but you're actually giving up 110k+ in wages you could be making, experience you could be gaining, not to mention retirement contributions/social security contributions.
    I think some of the schools that give the most merit aid are Case Western, UChicago, UMich, and WUSTL.
    If your current job will work with your on field placements, I would consider looking at USC or Columbia's online MSWs. Even with paying tuition to these programs, the total "cost" to you (including the $110k you could have made, health insurance would have to pay in a full-time program) is probably less than even getting a full-ride to a full-time program.
     
  14. Upvote
    TheCrow got a reaction from 42Icarus1914 in Social Work Program with Statistics   
    Yes, my degree was an MSW. Higher education financing is complicated and based on my experience, people in this forum seem to make blanket assumptions (like public schools are always more expensive). Columbia and USC seem to bury everyone in debt, but some of the other schools do have more money than they might admit. I got about 2/3rds from the school, and then I covered the rest with my research grant from my second year. 
    I would apply to a number of fields and programs and see what the outcomes are. Also consider that you may be able to ask for more money at private schools based on other offers.
    I didn't realize your interests were clinical - economics and political science certainly make no sense then. I don't have any knowledge to comment on clinical psych hiring. I would be surprised if the market were worse for them, although I'm sure admissions is much more competitive.
    There's another thread somewhere hard about "Insights from a professor" that may address many of your questions, and that faculty member suggests going somewhere that's affordable even if it's not brand name. One of the caveats though is that even though you might be able to get a PhD in social work without a master's in social work, it will make it very, very difficult to get a faculty position because you won't meet CSWE's requirement to teach the practices courses (which is a master's in social work and two years of post-MSW experience). I would consider applying to other relevant field's PhD and integrating the MSW into the degree during your studies on a part-time or extended basis. If you go for an MSW first, you may find the debt and pay elsewhere to keep you from continuing along your path and the MSW will probably not be relevant to a PhD.
     
  15. Upvote
    TheCrow got a reaction from 42Icarus1914 in Social Work Program with Statistics   
    Honestly, you're probably better off getting a PhD in a different field and getting permission to earn the MSW as part of that PhD program.
  16. Upvote
    TheCrow got a reaction from 42Icarus1914 in Social Work Program with Statistics   
    A statistics PhD is for those who want to make original contributions to the field of statistics, such as developing new estimators and such. You will probably have a hard time convincing such programs that your research interests are a good fit.
    You might want to consider a PhD in economics, political science, or sociology depending on your research interests. Economics will certainly have the best chance at a good job and the best quantitative training, although it will have the most competitive admissions. Michigan has a joint PhD in social work and economics, but they are the only ones.
    I applied straight out of undergraduate and was not admitted to any joint MSW/PhD programs, although I attended a well-ranked master's program with a good amount of funding based on my research interests. What I realized was that there are vast epistemological differences across fields. Frankly, my experience was that certain fields like statistics and economics are based on quality of outcomes, while the individuals in those fields are more likely to have biases against traditionally disadvantaged groups. Fields like social work, education, and theology are basically about paying your dues, not making novel contributions.
    I don't think it's unfair to characterize my experience in my master's program as a bunch of busy work that constitutes a hazing process to make you feel like you got your money's worth and are part of the discipline. For the most part, it was going through the motions. There was very little opportunity to take advanced classes from other fields (apparently I was basically the first person to petition out of basic stats + basic research methods, and that was a real struggle by itself), and there was no time to devote to rigorous quantitative classes anyway. The classes we did take did not allow sufficient opportunity to integrate research. Outside of the top group of social work PhDs, it starts to look a lot like lower ranked programs in education and nursing that have begun to offer what can honestly be characterized as fake PhDs: programs that take your money in exchange for an inflated credential, while not actually teaching you to do research (which is the whole point of a PhD).
    This field, like education, basically requires a master's degree (read: debt) and having existed long enough in a related role to have paid your debts, regardless of whether you've learned anything. That means research ability is very unlikely to get you into an MSW/PhD program unless you have a master's (which, again, the master's in social work is not research focused). 
    I was very clear when I came in that I was interested in policy and research. The faculty had not interest in what I was doing (many not being social workers and having been denied tenure from higher status fields, and others not having published in awhile). I ended up having to find a mentor outside of the program and was actually awarded an extraordinarily large research grant. This made some of the faculty in my program very jealous and upset. I left the program with several good publications - far exceeding the median number of peer-reviewed publications (roughly zero) of those who had finished their PhDs at this top-ranked programs.
    I realized that if I wanted to be the kind of scholar that I wanted to be, I would need to attend a PhD program in a different field. The opportunity cost of the PhD is very high, however, and there are increasingly fewer tenure-track positions. If you choose to pursue academia, remember that you don't need a PhD in social work (an MSW + a PhD in a field with better methodological training is probably preferable), and you don't need to be in a social work department to research social welfare or counseling.
    I finished the program and took a more quantitative public sector job with good work-life balance where I feel like I really get to have an impact on an everyday basis. Fairly soon my salary will exceed the average for associate professors at 4-year schools, and I plan to continue to publish without going back for the PhD.
    Really think about what your goals are and what you want to out of your career. (Disclaimer, of course, that I can't speak for other's experiences at my program or to what other programs are like.)
  17. Upvote
    TheCrow got a reaction from 42Icarus1914 in Social Work Program with Statistics   
    I also realized I didn't answer part of your question. MSW/PhD programs, for the most part, basically exist for a very small number of midcareer professionals in related fields with a master's in a related field.
  18. Upvote
    TheCrow got a reaction from rising_star in Social Work Program with Statistics   
    A statistics PhD is for those who want to make original contributions to the field of statistics, such as developing new estimators and such. You will probably have a hard time convincing such programs that your research interests are a good fit.
    You might want to consider a PhD in economics, political science, or sociology depending on your research interests. Economics will certainly have the best chance at a good job and the best quantitative training, although it will have the most competitive admissions. Michigan has a joint PhD in social work and economics, but they are the only ones.
    I applied straight out of undergraduate and was not admitted to any joint MSW/PhD programs, although I attended a well-ranked master's program with a good amount of funding based on my research interests. What I realized was that there are vast epistemological differences across fields. Frankly, my experience was that certain fields like statistics and economics are based on quality of outcomes, while the individuals in those fields are more likely to have biases against traditionally disadvantaged groups. Fields like social work, education, and theology are basically about paying your dues, not making novel contributions.
    I don't think it's unfair to characterize my experience in my master's program as a bunch of busy work that constitutes a hazing process to make you feel like you got your money's worth and are part of the discipline. For the most part, it was going through the motions. There was very little opportunity to take advanced classes from other fields (apparently I was basically the first person to petition out of basic stats + basic research methods, and that was a real struggle by itself), and there was no time to devote to rigorous quantitative classes anyway. The classes we did take did not allow sufficient opportunity to integrate research. Outside of the top group of social work PhDs, it starts to look a lot like lower ranked programs in education and nursing that have begun to offer what can honestly be characterized as fake PhDs: programs that take your money in exchange for an inflated credential, while not actually teaching you to do research (which is the whole point of a PhD).
    This field, like education, basically requires a master's degree (read: debt) and having existed long enough in a related role to have paid your debts, regardless of whether you've learned anything. That means research ability is very unlikely to get you into an MSW/PhD program unless you have a master's (which, again, the master's in social work is not research focused). 
    I was very clear when I came in that I was interested in policy and research. The faculty had not interest in what I was doing (many not being social workers and having been denied tenure from higher status fields, and others not having published in awhile). I ended up having to find a mentor outside of the program and was actually awarded an extraordinarily large research grant. This made some of the faculty in my program very jealous and upset. I left the program with several good publications - far exceeding the median number of peer-reviewed publications (roughly zero) of those who had finished their PhDs at this top-ranked programs.
    I realized that if I wanted to be the kind of scholar that I wanted to be, I would need to attend a PhD program in a different field. The opportunity cost of the PhD is very high, however, and there are increasingly fewer tenure-track positions. If you choose to pursue academia, remember that you don't need a PhD in social work (an MSW + a PhD in a field with better methodological training is probably preferable), and you don't need to be in a social work department to research social welfare or counseling.
    I finished the program and took a more quantitative public sector job with good work-life balance where I feel like I really get to have an impact on an everyday basis. Fairly soon my salary will exceed the average for associate professors at 4-year schools, and I plan to continue to publish without going back for the PhD.
    Really think about what your goals are and what you want to out of your career. (Disclaimer, of course, that I can't speak for other's experiences at my program or to what other programs are like.)
  19. Upvote
    TheCrow got a reaction from qt_dnvr in UChicago SSA Fall 2017 A.M. applicants   
    Congrats on getting in!
    Just as a note, you can bring in up to $5000 in external funding a year before they reduce your SSA award. 
  20. Upvote
    TheCrow got a reaction from weshh in Questions tuition and programs   
    Actually, private universities often engage in more tuition discounting (raising tuition only to then hand out a lot of scholarships), whereas public universities often have far fewer scholarships so most people pay sticker price. I'm always concerned when I see people applying to a ton of out-of-state public schools.
  21. Upvote
    TheCrow got a reaction from went_away in Why do MPA/MPP programs give so much importance to work experience?   
    Primarily because professional schools want to take your money and then see you do really well (as a good representation of them and help in recruiting). It's easiest for them to just admit the people with likelihood of being successful (in terms of knowing people and having already gotten promotions), rather than take people who aren't in the field and hope they'll make it work. Law school admits people in such a way as to keep the rank high (LSAT and GPA), since that's what everyone in law seems to care about, and they really don't care whether that means you'll be a good lawyer because that's not their problem.
  22. Upvote
    TheCrow got a reaction from UrbanMidwest in Social work PhD/Soon to be Phds Share!   
    You might want to see "Should Doctoral Programs Graduate Students with Fewer than two Years of Post-Msw Practice Experience? No!" and a response, "Should Doctoral Programs Graduate Students with Fewer than two Years of Post-MSW Practice Experience? Yes!", both in the Journal of Social Work Education. I guess a lot of what matters is what you mean by "social policy researcher." (e.g., are you looking for a tenure-track job in social work?). (As well as Shore, B., & Thyer, B. A. (1997). Should non-MSWs earn the social work doctorate? A debate. Journal of Teaching in Social Work, 14(1/2), 127-145.)
  23. Upvote
    TheCrow got a reaction from mikess23 in MSW in Chicago-Chances of getting in!   
    I think you will find that the higher ranked schools are more likely to admit you with a lower GPA and leave you to pay large amounts to attend, whereas lower ranked schools will be less likely to admit you with a lower GPA.
  24. Upvote
    TheCrow got a reaction from narielstar in MSW programs that have accepted below 3.0 GPA   
    Actually, social work admissions are weird. There are basics two trends: highly selective public universities where everyone pays basically the same and private universities (often higher ranked) that admit a far higher percentage of applicants, but give reasonable funding to a much smaller pool.  With a low GPA, I bet you're more likely to get into Columbia for an MSW than Portland State.
  25. Upvote
    TheCrow got a reaction from esp.msw in Overcoming low undergrad GPA for admissions   
    Paradoxically, you might find that some of the higher ranked school are less difficult to get into than the lower ranked ones. Look closely at each program's website. Sometimes, social work programs are bound by requirements of other divisions of the university (UNC Chapel Hill's graduate school requires the school of social work to require GRE scores, even if they don't want to). One program that comes to mind is Case Western. Even though they're highly ranked, their acceptance rate is really high and their website says, "A minimum undergraduate grade point average of 2.7. A Miller Analogies Test Score or Graduate Record Exam (GRE) score is required for a grade point average below 2.7."
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