[Is R1 the right path for me?]

3 hours ago, rising_star said:

This isn't only in your field. This is the norm for people across the social and natural sciences who want to move up in rank. To show the R1s that you belong, you have to show them that you are already producing the R1 amount of research with less support and more teaching, ergo you'll be an even more productive researcher once you get a reduction in teaching load. And, even then depending on the field, it may not be possible. I have multiple friends with history PhDs and books published (as in, book went into production during their third or fourth year on the TT) and they cannot move up from directional state or R2 schools because 1) there aren't a lot of options and 2) there are sooo many people trying to make the same move with an equivalent or better publication and research background. It's one of the problems created by the replacement of TT jobs with adjunct positions across the academy.

Yes, definitely! That's why I think there's such pressure for R2s to strive for R1 status even as they all know it's nearly impossible. It's much easier for strong programs to attract the superstars and keep their momentum going.

I think a lot of people have accepted their place within the ranks and focus on regional or local impact rather than national/international reputation. I think I would be happy to start my career at these R2s (especially my top choice right now because it's located close to my family and has potential for interesting research). But I would also want to do R1 work to make a strong case for tenure because it seems that they will want external letter writers from equivalent or slightly higher reputation schools. So, if you want to earn tenure at an R2, you still need to do R1 level work to get tenure at an R2. It's so crazy!

My friend, who started at an R1, was not re-appointed after midterm review. So, people can shift down, too. I mean, s/he's looking for any job right now and hopefully can find one, but it probably won't be at an R1.

[Is R1 the right path for me?]

UPDATE: As of today, I have sent out 10 applications to TT positions at R1s and R2s (just because those are the types of universities that tend to have faculty positions in my field) and 1 application to a Non-Profit. My stats:

NP: phone interview / reject because I wasn't a good fit (which I found out later and which wasn't clear in the job announcement)

R1: no response yet from 3 of them; 1 Skype interview / reject.

R2: no response yet from 1 of them; Skype interview with 1 / no campus visit (so I'm assuming reject); 1 upcoming phone interview; and, 4 campus visit invites (2 completed already).

So, my original question in this thread was about whether R1 was the right path for me. I tried the NP very early on and wasn't a good fit for them (although they are still in my field, even as potential collaborators, so I've kept good connections with them). And, it seems that the universities that MOST want someone like me (from an R1 institution) are R2s. I think this is perhaps the tightest spot to be in because the R2s want to become R1s, but they don't have the resources or staff, and it would take a long time and lots of investment in securing high-quality faculty, etc. And yet there is still the expectation of high-quality teaching and service. My read of my particular field (Education) is that most people like me will start out our careers at R2s and, if we do well, may then move up to R1, but that means starting out at the R2 with an R1 mindset. It's not impossible, like others have said on this thread, and I agree that it is difficult. A senior faculty member in my field did this, and he has suggested starting out as an Assistant Professor with an R1 mindset no matter where you go (rather than take a post-doc for two years) and then moving up when the opportunity arises. In Education, people do move around quite a bit, including up if they've done good research.

For me, it's not the prestige factor, but the fact that R1s will attract higher-quality graduate students, who can then help with research (and the type of qualitative research I do involves intense data collection and analysis). On my two campus visits so far, the doctoral students tend to be local part-timers or international students (which, in the field of education can be a disadvantage if they want to eventually find a position in the U.S. because US schools/colleges of education tend to favor U.S. K-12 teaching experience).

So, I share all this to help others see what the process has been like for me so far. In short, as an Assistant Professor in my field, I will have to work as if I'm at an R1 even if I'm at an R2. Reading between the lines, I can see that the publishing expectation is 2 articles per year (with at least some in highest ranked journals in field and a mixture of author order) with a 3-2 teaching load... BUT, more is always better. At one university, the dept head talked specifically about earning merit for above and beyond expectations. Everyone wants to increase their status... and the question I'm still kind of pondering is, am I willing to take on that role?

[Is R1 the right path for me?]

Thanks, juilletmercredi! I think your insights are valuable. I was just talking with a friend today who is working on an education-focused project at a public health non-profit. She didn't know you could do such a thing! So, yes, I agree that there's a lot more out there.

The autonomy question is an interesting one. I think I would prefer more rather than less autonomy, and so it seems like academia is the way to go. I had looked at research positions in non-profits, but I'd have to work on their projects first and then eventually apply for funding to work on my own projects. I haven't completely ruled out non-profits, but one issue is that the non-profits I'm most interested in are located in an expensive area that I'm not sure I could afford to live in anyway.

So, in terms of academia--I have three phone/Skype interviews so far! Two are R2, and one is R1. I'm expecting to hear back from more institutions during the next few weeks.

[Venting Thread- Vent about anything.]

I really dislike the academic job search. It's much more stressful than applying to graduate school. At least you had an expectation of waiting a few months to hear about results. But with the academic job search, every school/department has their own timeline, so you're left worrying about whether you're going to get an interview or not, especially when they re-post the job announcement the day after the original deadline!!! Makes me feel like they didn't like my application. Or, they need more applications so they can feel good about choosing some and not others. Sigh. These new few months are going to be incredibly stressful.

[Is R1 the right path for me?]

On 10/22/2016 at 0:31 AM, juilletmercredi said:

 

Wait a second here. If I am understanding you correctly, you applied for a position at one nonprofit, and weren't a great fit there, so now you have completely given up on nonprofits altogether and decided to focus your energy on faculty positions?

I mean, if you really want to be a professor that is your call - you can direct your own job search. But if the only reason you gave up on nonprofits is because this one nonprofit rejected you for being too research-focused...don't!

First of all, every nonprofit organization is completely different, and some will have more of a focus on or appreciation for research than others. There are lots of giant nonprofits that do lots of education research - ACT, the Educational Testing Service, and the College Board are just the first three that pop into mind. There are lots of think tanks and policy agencies that do educational research. There might be state school boards and administrative bodies that would benefit from an educational researcher. Education is one of those fields where there are lots of researchers in lots of places other than academia. If you wanted a research-focused, non-academic position you could find one.

Second, learning to tailor your resume/CV and your frame of mind into a more applied one is a skill. It's not something that's innately born into you. Yes, it can be difficult to switch gears, but that doesn't mean it's impossible. You have to take certain steps to learn how to do it, but it's definitely doable. Of course, again, whether that's something you want or not is really up to you.

If you are still uncertain about academia I would not take this one rejection as some kind of cosmic sign from the universe that you were meant to be in academia. It's simply a job rejection from one job that just wasn't the right fit.

Thanks! I really appreciate your comments. The kind of research I do is qualitative, so places like ACT and ETS won't necessarily be the best fit for me (although I haven't been looking too hard there). Part of the reason I have given up on non-profits is that I really want to direct my own research agenda. As I'm currently writing my research statements, I'm excited about different directions I could go.

[Is R1 the right path for me?]

4 hours ago, Eigen said:

I'd look at some top SLACs, I think they'll provide more of what you're looking for than a lot of R2s. 

Our grants office, for instance, is very on the ball, and we have a pretty robust education program. Some SLACs that I've applied to even have fairly robust M.Ed programs as their sole graduate program. 

It's also worth noting that there are a lot more NSF grants awarded to *good* SLACs than mediocre R2s. 

Thanks! Will do!

[Silly question: how do I know how good/bad the market is?]

On 10/16/2016 at 1:20 AM, TakeruK said:

Also, the number of openings doesn't tell the full story: what if there are more applicants now too?

Yes, this is true! So I would add to my comment above by saying... of all the people I know who were looking for jobs last year (in my sub-field), everyone got a job except for one person. A few people took post-docs. So I guess the way I think about whether the job market is good or bad is... are there enough jobs out there for the number of people qualified to fill those positions? And in my sub-field, the answer is yes. In fact, I've seen a number of positions that were posted last year that are being re-posted this year, so I think the job market is very good this year in that there are more jobs than qualified applicants. Part of the problem with these institutions may be where they are located, and so they are having trouble getting people to even apply (for example, I saw one institution in the deep South posting positions twice already this job season).

[Is R1 the right path for me?]

On 10/15/2016 at 8:27 PM, Eigen said:

It's been a long time since the start of this, but have you completely ruled out small liberal arts colleges? Or are you just focused on R1/R2 schools?

R1/R2 schools only because typically those institutions offer jobs that I'm qualified for (within my specialty in education). And, I can apply for NSF grants, so I need institutional support for grant writing and research. Someone who does something like educational philosophy may be able to get a job at a small liberal arts college, but I've been trained to work with prospective teachers, and usually the large state universities have those programs.

[Getting A Job close to family]

In my case, I wasn't sure if I could get a job close to family, and I was willing to do a nationwide search. But... a job opened up at a university that is 1 hour from my family, and the preferred research area is pretty much my dissertation, so I'm hopeful about my competitiveness for the position. The next closest job is about 4 hours, and the next closes one is probably about 8-10 hours driving. So, it's not impossible.

[Is R1 the right path for me?]

UPDATE: So I tried applying for a position at a non-profit, and after the phone interview, my application was rejected. So, now I have no choice but to put all my energy into faculty positions, at R1 and R2 universities. I think I came off as too research-y for the non-profit (which is not heavily focused on research), so they may have done me a favor in the long run by rejecting my application. Because, ultimately, I have a very research-oriented frame of mind, and it's hard to turn it off and think only in terms of application rather than generation of knowledge. Also, if I'm honest with myself, I was hoping to avoid the academic job search, which is much harder than other job searches. So, this turn of events may be the universe telling me that I need to take the more difficult path and perhaps come out the other side stronger than I was before!

[Advice for Applying to Faculty Positions in Canada]

UPDATE: I was able to speak with a professor at this university, and the response I got was basically that they prefer the most qualified candidate, whether or not they are Canadian. So, if they have two equal candidates, they'll take the Canadian. But if the non-Canadian is more qualified, they will choose the non-Canadian. I was encouraged to apply, as there's nothing to lose by applying!

[Silly question: how do I know how good/bad the market is?]

My sense of the job market this year for my field (education) is that it's good. There are more jobs than I want to apply for. Granted, some of these institutions are in locations I'd never want to live, so that weeds out a fair number of positions. However, in my particular sub-field, 6-10 is a good number of positions to apply for, and I think that's about how many applications I'll be putting in.

[Toronto, ON]

On 6/8/2016 at 11:36 AM, OverCaffeinated said:

hey guys, torontonian here, if you want to ask anything just tag me in the post  (otherwise i dont check this thread)

Hi there! What do you think about U of T and family life in Toronto (I'm looking at faculty positions)? Are the schools there good/bad/okay? Outdoor things to do, like hiking, biking, nature trails? Libraries? Thanks!

[Advice for Applying to Faculty Positions in Canada]

10 hours ago, fuzzylogician said:

A quick look at the faculty page will tell you how seriously they take the "Canadians preferred" clause. I find that different universities take it more or less seriously. Read up on the structure of the program to avoid saying something that sounds uninformed (e.g. programs will almost always require an MA; some have such a thing as a "qualifying year"; funding for students might be very different than you are used to, perhaps tighter and/or generally only available to Canadian citizens; undergraduate degrees at least in some provinces may sometimes be only three years, not four, depending on whether they come in with some previous work, e.g. from cegep). This will influence how you want to talk about interacting with and teaching students. There is often more available government funding in Canada, so talking about applying for grants early and often might not be a bad idea. Find out which granting agency is the relevant one for you. Generally, though, it's not all that different from applying to jobs in the US. I don't think I did anything different in applications to Canadian schools than for US schools. A lot of what I just said is more relevant if and when you get an interview. 

Thanks!

10 hours ago, PoliticalOrder said:

What's the question? What things would you really need to 'consider'? To be honest, there really isn't much that separates the two countries. 

I'm not sure, to be honest! That's why I left the question open-ended. I think I'm mostly concerned about how they view American PhD students. Looking at the faculty profiles, I see that most of them are from Canada and graduated from Canadian universities. There are some faculty from the United States. They seem to be members of the same national/professional organizations.

[Advice for Applying to Faculty Positions in Canada]

I'm looking for advice about applying to faculty positions in Canada as a U.S. citizen or permanent resident. Of course, the job description states that Canadians are preferred; however, they invite applications from all qualified candidates. What things should I consider about moving to Canada? Specifically, the university is located in Toronto.

[Tuscaloosa, AL]

I've read elsewhere that Tuscaloosa is close enough to other cities like Birmingham, or even Atlanta, to make living there somewhat tolerable (from a cultural standpoint).

What can you say about the university itself, including student population?

[Tuscaloosa, AL]

Updates please! Thinking of applying to UA for a faculty position. Please comment on quality of life, living costs, things to do, whatever else is distinctive about living in Tuscaloosa. I've rarely been in the South (despite being a fan of Southern accents and Gone with the Wind)!

[Is R1 the right path for me?]

8 hours ago, TakeruK said:

Maybe our fields are too different, but I was surprised by the pay rate for some of the jobs in my field. Except for prize fellowships, most positions do not publish their salaries (you can often negotiate) and instead say something like "pay will depend on ability and experience". So, the advice I've got for going on the job market this fall is that unless the published pay rate is definitely too low to live on, don't sell yourself short. Definitely do not accept a job offer for a place you can't afford to live, but don't prevent yourself from applying if the job is otherwise a good match. Maybe you will end up with a salary where you are able to afford it!

Good point!

I've met the person who posted the position, so I emailed them to ask indirectly about salary... and the person said that the salary was enough to afford to live in the East Bay, which I assume means it's not enough to live on in SF and so a commute would be necessary, and it's the idea of the commute, whether by car or public transportation, that kills me.

Now, the non-profit position advertises their salary as commensurate with academic or K-12 administrator positions, by which I infer they mean assistant professor or principal salaries. I'm a bit more comfortable with that. Although, like you suggested, perhaps I should check it out first before saying no. 

[Is R1 the right path for me?]

Well, it's been six months!

I successfully defended my dissertation proposal, and the plan is to defend the dissertation in 9 months and graduate in Spring 2017. And, my advisor has started talking with me about jobs. There was one job that came up in San Francisco at an informal educational institution, and I just couldn't think of how I could afford to live in the Bay Area. That is, live in the East Bay and commute to SF. Just thinking about it made me feel stressed out. So, no applying for jobs in places where I couldn't afford to live, no matter how desirable they may seem!

There's another job at a non-profit on the East Coast. Seems affordable to live in the area, and the job description is a perfect fit for me (or, rather I think I'm the person they're looking for). I'm simultaneously excited to move to a new place and sad to leave friends.

As I'm writing my dissertation in the next 9 months, I think I'll figure out what the best career path is for me (at this moment in time). I'm also working on several manuscripts. And if I can't figure out how to write fast, then going the non-academic route may be best as I'm not sure I could write fast enough to earn tenure.

[Is R1 the right path for me?]

I just wanted to say a big thank you to all of you for chiming in. I have a lot to think about over the next few months... for right now, I think I'm going to keep my options open because who knows what opportunities will appear? I know that R1 is an option for me, if I want it. My advisor has already said I'd be competitive for it. One thing I've learned in graduate school is that opportunities appear all the time! I've never been able to predict where I'd be in six months.

Happy holidays, everyone!

[Is R1 the right path for me?]

On 12/18/2015 at 7:27 PM, fuzzylogician said:

My first year on the job market, I got an interview at a very nice SLAC. Through preparing for that interview, learning more about the school, its mission, and talking to faculty and students there, I realized that my ideal job would combine not only teaching and research (I already knew that) but more specifically advising at the graduate level. I do enjoy teaching -- both the large intro courses where you can get the occasional student hooked, and the more advanced ones where you can talk to enthusiastic young students who have the best questions and the most unconventional ideas -- and I think I'm not bad, but I am also not the best. I try to improve and I care, and do I think that goes a long way. But teaching isn't really the thing I want to do, and having a low teaching load would suit me just fine. I also want to have a serious research program going. I have more projects than time, and that's exactly how I like it. I enjoy collaborating with faculty and with students, I think that's one of the best aspects of my job.

Most importantly, advising is very important to me. I believe that whatever impact I'll have on my field, however brilliant of an idea I might have one day, the most influence will come through my students. I see around me too many students who are given bad advice or are left to themselves to get lost and confused, where just someone reaching out and caring would make all the difference. I want to be that person. That's true both for undergrads and for grad students. I'm being kind of selfish here, but I realized that I don't just want to attract some bright students, get them all trained up and excited about linguistics, and then send them off to do their next big thing somewhere else. I want brilliant students to come work with me. I do realize that graduate students need training too, and maybe I'll end up feeling the exact same way when students leave for a postdoc/job just as they finish their PhD and come into their own, but I want to be a part of that process. I had wonderful mentors myself who made all the difference, and if I can have that kind of influence on even just one person, I will be happy. This combination of the things I want is found mostly at R1s, so that's where I've concentrated my search. 

Yes! I also enjoy mentoring/advising junior grad students in my program. I like to think I'm a good listener, and I also have high standards and push my "friends"/colleagues to achieve the best they can achieve. Your post sounds very much like me!

[Is R1 the right path for me?]

On 12/18/2015 at 7:56 PM, rising_star said:

I wouldn't consider it ironic at all, actually. Just like I don't expect the best neuroscientist to be the best neuroscience professor, I don't expect all education researchers to be good at teaching, especially since there are many who get a PhD in education without spending any time teaching or TAing in a college classroom.

Like I said in my post, it wasn't meant as an attack on you. It's in response to a trend I've been seeing among graduate students to devalue teaching and teaching experience and assume it's something they can just pick up. I've long found that offensive since there's a great deal of scholarship around teaching and learning, knowledge of which can make you more effective in the classroom. For example, I'm constantly amazed and surprised by the unwillingness of graduate students to avail themselves of the Teaching Center on their campus. It surprises me because if you wanted research help, you'd go to an expert in your field or contact a librarian but, for teaching help, people tend to just ask their peers and not even consider consulting those with specific expertise in teaching. It irks me, in case you can't tell. And, for those who might want to be at a LAC or regional comprehensive, it could be the difference between getting a job and not getting a job. I work at a school in that group and we pay more attention to the teaching philosophy statement than we do to the cover letter because we're hiring someone who can teach first and foremost.

Oh no, I didn't see it as an attack at all. And I quite agree with you that college teaching practices need to change (some of my colleagues focus their work on undergrad teaching; you can imagine that some of the science faculty are resistant to change).

[Is R1 the right path for me?]

7 hours ago, TakeruK said:

I think this "pressure" is very real, especially at R1 schools too. Some people have the mindset that if you don't end up on the TT at an R1, then you've "failed". Of course, this is nonsense! But I also learned something interesting at a mentoring event at a recent conference. Students mentioned that we often never hear much from professors about support for non TT R-1 careers. Professors responded saying that it's not as simple---they are concerned/afraid that if they suggest a non-TT R1 career to a student, the student would interpret it as a message saying "you're not good enough for academia"! So, sometimes it might be a good idea for you to initiate the conversation. But keep in mind that by definition, the majority of the faculty member found success in this career path only, so they might not be the best place for advice for other positions.

Thanks for acknowledging the pressure! Makes me feel like I'm not insane, LOL.

[Is R1 the right path for me?]

11 hours ago, rising_star said:

2) If you're thinking about the transition, keep in mind that at a R1, you're building your research skills but, those aren't the skills that will land you a job outside the R1 institutions or very elite LACs. To work at a place like regional state university or most LACs, they're going to be far more concerned with your teaching skills and how you interact with undergraduate students. At many LACs, undergraduates are on the search committee and if you don't impress them on your visit, you're done. I really hate that PhD students, especially those focused on research, are sometimes so dismissive of the skills required to be good teacher (note: not accusing you of this wildviolet but it's a growing pet peeve of mine since I see it a lot). I've honestly found developing new research projects to be easier than developing and successfully implementing new teaching strategies, though that may be field-specific.

LOL, yes! Well, I'm in education so... it would be ironic if I couldn't teach well!

Seriously, though, educational researchers are not necessarily the best teachers. Education is an interesting research context--I'm fascinated by what goes on in classrooms and how that is related to larger sociocultural, economic, and political issues. My particular program strives to produce graduates who are good at both research AND teaching. I'd like to think that I could excel in both areas because my research informs my teaching and my teaching informs my research. We'll see though--I'll be getting my undergraduate teaching evaluations at the end of the year! (I got great reviews from the online Master's students I taught in a previous semester.)

[Is R1 the right path for me?]

11 hours ago, TakeruK said:

My advisor's answer sounds a lot like your current situation. They said they did not want to primarily be a teacher (I would say my advisor is one of the best teachers in the department and one of the best I've ever encountered, so this is not due to lack of ability!) because research is where their passions lie. And, in order to do the research they want to do, it's only the R1 schools that have the money and telescope access (as Eigen also mentioned). 

This gives me an idea! My advisor has been an academic for 30+ years! Universities were different back then. He knows the current situation is tougher in terms of tenure requirements than they were when he was starting out. So maybe I should ask some of the new, younger faculty how they decided to go the R1 route.

I think I'm trying to figure this decision out now because next fall I don't want to apply just anywhere. I want to have a focused job search for the sake of saving time, energy, and my sanity! I've heard the job search can take up a lot of time--looking for jobs, writing cover letters specifically for those positions, researching the institutions and faculty research, etc.

I think there's something else that gnaws at me... because my advisor and the faculty I've worked with here are well-known and well-connected... I've developed a pretty impressive network, including big names in my field (I mean, they know me by my first name!) and up and coming scholars. Just my institution name alone will generate some impressed looks. And my advisor's name generates some knowing nods. So... I kind of feel obligated to make use of all these resources and networks. In other words, I am well-positioned to launch into the R1 world, and I almost feel like I'd be throwing it all away if I did anything else. Does that make sense? No one is pressuring me outright to look for an R1 job (well, the college would like for us to pursue R1 jobs because it looks good for them!). But, I do feel a certain sense of obligation because a lot of people have put time and energy into helping me become a scholar/researcher/teacher.

On one hand, I think I'm kind of crazy for thinking this--I mean, it's my life! And no one can tell me where or where not to apply for a job. But, on the other hand, I have the opportunity to continue a certain legacy. Looking at my advisor's students over the years... they have ended up at diverse places. So, it's not like we all have to be R1. But, for me, I feel the tension, and I don't know when or if it will ever be resolved to my satisfaction.