Leaving med school for grad school...would I be competitive?

[pm3220]

So long story short, I am strongly considering leaving medical school following my first year. I haven't enjoyed it at all and really miss research. As such, I was wondering what my chances would be a genomics/bioinformatics (my area of undergraduate research) PhD programs?

GPA: 3.77

GRE: none yet (MCAT was 94th percentile)

Research: 1 late author pub in prestigious journal, 1 second author pub clinical journal, 1 talk national conference, 1 talk national undergrad conference, 2 clinical posters

Awards: Dean's award (most outstanding graduating bio major), won undergrad research grant, was the school nomination for Phi Kappa Phi national award

Other: tutored for 3 years

Red flags: leaving medical school after a year

[cephalexin]

You could probably get into a good grad school with your research experience and overall profile.

 

However, my advice would be to stick it out, and I’ll tell you why. First for background, I went pharmacy school -> grad school, and so a few years ago, I found myself in a very similar position to you. I found research enthralling, and I enjoyed the clinical aspects much less so. But then I talked to phD faculty at my the school, and I decided to stick it out. Here’s why and why I’d suggest the same to you (list is in no particular order).

1) you can do research during med school. My brother is in med school and he’s doing research between MS1 and MS2. Additionally, most schools have research programs between Ms2 and ms3 as well as a “research” elective clerkship/rotation. Reach out to faculty at your school that do research that interests you and see if they’ll take you. You can start during the semester and learn the basics between/after classes to start.

2) you can do research after med school. You can choose to enter a phd program after med school (you’d be a shoe in to top programs then. They love clinician scientists). If you don’t want to do a phd after, you don’t have to. Post residency, you can do a research fellowship. I know of plenty of fantastic scientists that are MDs.

3) you put so much work into getting into med school, and 3 more years to get that MD is not that long in the grand scheme of your life. Med school is hard. It’s not supposed to be fun. Some people may be enjoying it more than you but that doesn’t mean you need to abandon ship. Find a research lab, and use it as an escape from the stress of med school. That’s how I got through pharmacy school.

4) job prospects. I’m not sure where you’d like to end up, but academia is extremely competitive as I’m sure you’ve heard. Having a clinical degree gives you a huge leg up in terms of academia jobs. Med schools love having physician scientist faculty. Additionally, you will always have that clinical degree to fall back on, should a scientist job that interests you not be immediately available.

Edited June 23, 2019 by cephalexin

[Man_About_Town]

On 6/23/2019 at 5:59 AM, cephalexin said:

You could probably get into a good grad school with your research experience and overall profile.

 

However, my advice would be to stick it out, and I’ll tell you why. First for background, I went pharmacy school -> grad school, and so a few years ago, I found myself in a very similar position to you. I found research enthralling, and I enjoyed the clinical aspects much less so. But then I talked to phD faculty at my the school, and I decided to stick it out. Here’s why and why I’d suggest the same to you (list is in no particular order).

1) you can do research during med school. My brother is in med school and he’s doing research between MS1 and MS2. Additionally, most schools have research programs between Ms2 and ms3 as well as a “research” elective clerkship/rotation. Reach out to faculty at your school that do research that interests you and see if they’ll take you. You can start during the semester and learn the basics between/after classes to start.

2) you can do research after med school. You can choose to enter a phd program after med school (you’d be a shoe in to top programs then. They love clinician scientists). If you don’t want to do a phd after, you don’t have to. Post residency, you can do a research fellowship. I know of plenty of fantastic scientists that are MDs.

3) you put so much work into getting into med school, and 3 more years to get that MD is not that long in the grand scheme of your life. Med school is hard. It’s not supposed to be fun. Some people may be enjoying it more than you but that doesn’t mean you need to abandon ship. Find a research lab, and use it as an escape from the stress of med school. That’s how I got through pharmacy school.

4) job prospects. I’m not sure where you’d like to end up, but academia is extremely competitive as I’m sure you’ve heard. Having a clinical degree gives you a huge leg up in terms of academia jobs. Med schools love having physician scientist faculty. Additionally, you will always have that clinical degree to fall back on, should a scientist job that interests you not be immediately available.

Respectfully, absolutely do not take this advice. I am an MD that is now in a PhD program. If you are even questioning whether you like clinical medicine in your first year of medical school, then it is absolutely not for you. Every conversation I have with doctors my age is about our "Out from clinical medicine". I can count on one hand how many physicians I know that do not regret going to medical school.

In more detail:

1) I did research in undergrad and between MS1 and MS2 years. This is enough time to get a good publication out, but not to develop real research independence. The problem with medical school is that every step along the way in clinical training is a complete stop in research momentum. Imaging a PI having to restart his/her career every 4 years. That is what medical school, residency, clinical fellowship, etc do to you.

2) Entering a PhD program after med school (as I did) is not wise unless you enjoy 300k of student loan debt. Also, the pool of successful research scientists that are MD-only and have research skill gained from research fellowships post clinical training is shrinking. Many grants that apply to work in anything other than very basic clinical research want the PhD. 10-20 years ago this was not the case, but it is now. Compound that with the burden of clinical/teaching/admin duties as an MD and you get the point.

4) There is truth here, but the job market for PhDs, especially in industry, where a lot of interesting research now occurs, is hot.

Take the advice or leave it. There is a reason that almost 20% of doctors are planning to leave clinical medicine: https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/hospital-physician-relationships/why-more-physicians-are-leaving-medicine-4-takeaways.html. I would guess that number from 2016 is closer to 25-30% now.

[cephalexin]

10 hours ago, Man_About_Town said:

Respectfully, absolutely do not take this advice. I am an MD that is now in a PhD program. If you are even questioning whether you like clinical medicine in your first year of medical school, then it is absolutely not for you. Every conversation I have with doctors my age is about our "Out from clinical medicine". I can count on one hand how many physicians I know that do not regret going to medical school.

In more detail:

1) I did research in undergrad and between MS1 and MS2 years. This is enough time to get a good publication out, but not to develop real research independence. The problem with medical school is that every step along the way in clinical training is a complete stop in research momentum. Imaging a PI having to restart his/her career every 4 years. That is what medical school, residency, clinical fellowship, etc do to you.

2) Entering a PhD program after med school (as I did) is not wise unless you enjoy 300k of student loan debt. Also, the pool of successful research scientists that are MD-only and have research skill gained from research fellowships post clinical training is shrinking. Many grants that apply to work in anything other than very basic clinical research want the PhD. 10-20 years ago this was not the case, but it is now. Compound that with the burden of clinical/teaching/admin duties as an MD and you get the point.

4) There is truth here, but the job market for PhDs, especially in industry, where a lot of interesting research now occurs, is hot.

Take the advice or leave it. There is a reason that almost 20% of doctors are planning to leave clinical medicine: https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/hospital-physician-relationships/why-more-physicians-are-leaving-medicine-4-takeaways.html. I would guess that number from 2016 is closer to 25-30% now.

Thank you for providing your insights and your story, and I think this is a good discussion (both for OP and in general), so I have a few comments to keep it going.
1)While you're right that you often can't have continuous full time research during school, I think your comparison to a PI restarting his/her career doesn't really work. Skills translate from project to project, and so even if someone is in a different lab or different environment, he/she won't be starting from zero each time. Additionally, between grad school and post doc, institutions, topics, and entire systems often change, and that benefits the researcher, and does not harm him/her.

2) I don't have much to say here. You clearly have experience in looking for post clinical fellowships, and I only know what I've been told, so I'll defer to you on this.

4) I was focusing on academia when I made this comment. You are right about industry, if that is what OP wants.

[pm3220]

22 hours ago, Man_About_Town said:

Respectfully, absolutely do not take this advice. I am an MD that is now in a PhD program. If you are even questioning whether you like clinical medicine in your first year of medical school, then it is absolutely not for you. Every conversation I have with doctors my age is about our "Out from clinical medicine". I can count on one hand how many physicians I know that do not regret going to medical school.

In more detail:

1) I did research in undergrad and between MS1 and MS2 years. This is enough time to get a good publication out, but not to develop real research independence. The problem with medical school is that every step along the way in clinical training is a complete stop in research momentum. Imaging a PI having to restart his/her career every 4 years. That is what medical school, residency, clinical fellowship, etc do to you.

2) Entering a PhD program after med school (as I did) is not wise unless you enjoy 300k of student loan debt. Also, the pool of successful research scientists that are MD-only and have research skill gained from research fellowships post clinical training is shrinking. Many grants that apply to work in anything other than very basic clinical research want the PhD. 10-20 years ago this was not the case, but it is now. Compound that with the burden of clinical/teaching/admin duties as an MD and you get the point.

4) There is truth here, but the job market for PhDs, especially in industry, where a lot of interesting research now occurs, is hot.

Take the advice or leave it. There is a reason that almost 20% of doctors are planning to leave clinical medicine: https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/hospital-physician-relationships/why-more-physicians-are-leaving-medicine-4-takeaways.html. I would guess that number from 2016 is closer to 25-30% now.

Thank you for your advice/response!

So to begin, I don't really hate clinical medicine, in fact I enjoy being in the clinic. I like people. I just absolutely hate everything about medical school. The mass memorization, the obsession with tests/grades, the out of touch professors/administration, etc. It should be hard, but it all seems like it is made as miserable as possible for whatever reason (I'm an M1, maybe there is a reason?).

1) Fair consideration. I think I will either go all in on medicine or leave for research. I know there is people who manage to come out of this with research skills and clinical skills ,but I am not that smart/hyper-motivated.

2) Definitely feel that. That is honestly the main reason I'm considering leaving. If not for the debt I'd prolly just ride it out for another year or so and see if it got better.

3) Is this true for genetics/genomics PhDs? Cause if I left that is what I would want to do a PhD in.