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1 hour ago, Coconuts&Chloroform said:

let's not gatekeep people who have just their dreams denied, whether those be some or all of their dreams. 

I think this is exactly the issue though. Your dreams haven't been denied. You still get to pursue your chosen academic career, even if it's not at your top choice of department. Getting into any PhD program, especially a funded one, is a massive privilege.

Some of us only get one chance to apply, and getting shut out means our dreams are actually denied. 

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@originalcoconuts I am glad you are not coming to my department. I like how people are getting shut out and you come on here to whinge about getting into multiple programs. I wish admissions had yeete

Rejected from Baylor via email.  It's an honor to be the first rejected person in this thread. I'm sure you'll hear from me again soon.  

Local philosophy department posts status update - STUNNED applicants cannot believe it. Click the link for this SHOCKING revelation

On 3/10/2020 at 3:29 PM, Coconuts&Chloroform said:

Yeah, I'll be happy at UT or WUSTL, but in some sense I just definitively lost a competition in a field about which I care a whole lot. If there were national rankings of philosophy students as there are for golfers or tennis players, it seems that I wouldn't be all that high on the list. That's reason to be upset whether or not I'm happy where I end up. I think UT Austin and WUSTL are fantastic programs, and that they're both under-ranked. Still, if you figure that each Top 10 program will have an incoming cohort of about 5, it's clear that I didn't make the Top 50 rankings this year. Anyone with a competitive bone in their body would be upset by that; so, with respect, I don't think it's that silly to complain about this. 

I have a competitive bone in my body, but I must confess this is a very strange way to think of being competitive (best 50 phil students?) and even stranger that you thought this would be something to be bothered by (why think you'd get top 50 per this definition, or that it was a serious goal to be attained?). Consequently, though competitive I am, I was not upset by failing to get top 10. I understand being miffed given that you were assessing the app season this way, but I don't think it makes much sense to evaluate your season in this way.

I'm not hating on you. I know why you're miffed. I would encourage venting in this way with greater awareness or sensitivity to your peers (perhaps elsewhere, as you admitted might be prudent). Either way, congrats on your acceptances. Sorry your high hopes weren't met.

Edited by Duns Eith
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16 minutes ago, Schrödinger's_Doge said:

I think this is exactly the issue though. Your dreams haven't been denied. You still get to pursue your chosen academic career, even if it's not at your top choice of department. Getting into any PhD program, especially a funded one, is a massive privilege.

Some of us only get one chance to apply, and getting shut out means our dreams are actually denied. 

What I'm saying is just that rejection and dream-denial come in degrees. Of course there a people worse off than I am, and I feel for them. Very much (though I'll admit that in the moment I wrote my original post I wasn't thinking about that). That doesn't mean that people who get rejected from some places but accepted to others haven't have certain of their dreams denied, or their dreams denied to a lesser degree, depending on how one wants to formulate it. I think this should be a pretty uncontroversial point. 

Maybe I can rely on a sports analogy: someone who gets cut from Spring Training has a right to be upset, even though they came very close to playing for a Big-League team, and even though they can probably try again next year. They don't have a right to be as upset as someone who simply doesn't get drafted, or who injures themselves in a career-ending way, but it's still appropriate for them to be upset, even if for a lesser while and to a lesser degree.

At this point I'm going to stop responding to objections to what I've said in this thread. Yeah, the post was a dick move, and much of what I said was pretty irrational. It was just heat-of-the-moment venting. Sorry to whomever was upset by it. I've done my best to clarify the parts of it that I think are defensible, but from this point forward I'll just let you guys pile on, if that's what you want to do.

Edited by Coconuts&Chloroform
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16 minutes ago, Coconuts&Chloroform said:

What I'm saying is just that rejection and dream-denial come in degrees. Of course there a people worse off than I am, and I feel for them. Very much (though I'll admit that in the moment I wrote my original post I wasn't thinking about that). That doesn't mean that people who get rejected from some places but accepted to others haven't have certain of their dreams denied, or their dreams denied to a lesser degree, depending on how one wants to formulate it. I think this should be a pretty uncontroversial point. 

Maybe I can rely on a sports analogy: someone who gets cut from Spring Training has a right to be upset, even though they came very close to playing for a Big-League team, and even though they can probably try again next year. They don't have a right to be as upset as someone who simply doesn't get drafted, or who injures themselves in a career-ending way, but it's still appropriate for them to be upset, even if for a lesser while and to a lesser degree.

At this point I'm going to stop responding to objections to what I've said in this thread. Yeah, the post was a dick move, and much of what I said was pretty irrational. It was just heat-of-the-moment venting. Sorry to whomever was upset by it. I've done my best to clarify the parts of it that I think are defensible, but from this point forward I'll just let you guys pile on, if that's what you want to do.

I don't think analytic philosophy's gonna get you outta this one, spud

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13 minutes ago, 711fanatic said:

I don't think analytic philosophy's gonna get you outta this one, spud

Substantive reply right here.

Looking on the bright side, I'm at least glad that I've provided a relatively meaningless target for other people to vent their frustrations at. Pile on my post if it makes you feel better. I certainly can't blame you for doing so.

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1 hour ago, Coconuts&Chloroform said:

Substantive reply right here.

Looking on the bright side, I'm at least glad that I've provided a relatively meaningless target for other people to vent their frustrations at. Pile on my post if it makes you feel better. I certainly can't blame you for doing so.

It's possible both to appreciate the frustrated responses to C&C and to understand C&C's disappointment with app outcomes. Putting in the extra push of doing an MA program, largely for the purposes of improving one's PhD candidacy, is a real commitment of money (no MA program funds adequately, as far as I am aware) and heart. It's understandable to be upset that the commitment didn't pay off in quite the way hoped. And, especially because the job market is supposed to be so tough, I can sympathize with the interest in being admitted to a program that (unfairly or not) improves one's career prospects. Moreover, it seems as though C&C took the rejections to indicate something about performance/ability. We all struggle to keep our thoughts from going that direction, I think. It's a painful preoccupation, and it may have prevented a tuning in to how the venting would feel to others. Thanks, C&C, for being genuinely accountable for the mistake here. Godspeed to all of us dealing with our disappointments right now and trying to put ourselves together to move ahead.

Ps. To the handful of folks who gloat by listing off one top program after the other to which they've been admitted (here or on FB or twitter): this is short of tasteful at best. 

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1 hour ago, Coconuts&Chloroform said:

Yeah, the post was a dick move, and much of what I said was pretty irrational.

I don't think so. If people are offended by the high standards you set yourself, that's their problem. I'm shut out from the top-25 programs, and I'm convinced that it is actually a good thing to recognize and assess the fact that there are people who got into multiple top-10 programs and I didn't. Interpreting that fact is another question (and I believe it is important not to jump too quickly into conclusions about one's prospects as a philosopher) but it would be foolish to ignore it. And I am sorry but if you are shut out completely, you should start working on understanding why, instead of attacking people who are more succesful than you for not being entirely satisfied. 

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In happier news: got an email from NYU to check my portal. Uh oh, I think. Tried to access my portal and realized I had forgotten exactly what the password is. But yet, I persisted. Tried out several variations of the password, unsuccessfully. Stopped persisting. Gave up, and pressed the Forgot your password? link to reset. Got a reset link, only to be informed that access to my account has been temporarily restricted, presumably because of my valiant efforts to remember the password earlier. 🤡

Anyway, I know these signs, so in summary, this is how you delay the news that you've been rejected. 

violacion-www.laguiadelvaron-2.gif

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On March 11, 2020 at 5:25 PM, Coconuts&Chloroform said:

What I'm saying is just that rejection and dream-denial come in degrees. Of course there a people worse off than I am, and I feel for them. Very much (though I'll admit that in the moment I wrote my original post I wasn't thinking about that). That doesn't mean that people who get rejected from some places but accepted to others haven't have certain of their dreams denied, or their dreams denied to a lesser degree, depending on how one wants to formulate it. I think this should be a pretty uncontroversial point. 

Maybe I can rely on a sports analogy: someone who gets cut from Spring Training has a right to be upset, even though they came very close to playing for a Big-League team, and even though they can probably try again next year. They don't have a right to be as upset as someone who simply doesn't get drafted, or who injures themselves in a career-ending way, but it's still appropriate for them to be upset, even if for a lesser while and to a lesser degree.

At this point I'm going to stop responding to objections to what I've said in this thread. Yeah, the post was a dick move, and much of what I said was pretty irrational. It was just heat-of-the-moment venting. Sorry to whomever was upset by it. I've done my best to clarify the parts of it that I think are defensible, but from this point forward I'll just let you guys pile on, if that's what you want to do.

I'm guessing everyone can agree that dream-denial comes in degrees, and that it's reasonable for any loss to be upsetting. It's not the consistency of your *own* grievances and losses that bothers people. It's the proportionality of it all that makes your comments seem tactless. After a large meal, I might suffer from indigestion, but I wouldn't broadcast it to the famished. But don't take it too hard. It's not the first time this field has made our obsessions with logical consistency get in the way of our moral character, or our sensibilities. In fact, it's probably why your writing sample's prose went unappreciated after all. But I hope we can collectively work to do better than this. 

 

Edited by Descartes blanche
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On 3/15/2020 at 10:19 AM, Sockrates Puppet said:

Has anyone heard anything on BGSU or University of Arizona?

Not sure if here is right place to post such an inquiry, but nvm. I don't know BGSU, but I think all UA acceptances and wait-lists are out, though no rejections are sent.  

Edited by Losebeforeapply
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CUNY email, yesterday:

'Let us know, however, if you would like to be considered for our M.A. program. No additional application letter or materials would be required from you. Just write to us by April 16th if you are interested. If not, then there is no reason for you to communicate further.'

:o God damn, Professor Mills!

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On 3/10/2020 at 3:14 PM, Coconuts&Chloroform said:

Well, I've officially been rejected from NYU and Columbia. This was a pretty bad applications season. I have three acceptances from my three lowest-ranked schools, but not so much as a waitlist from any of my top 10 schools. I know it silly to complain about this, but given my GRE scores, grades, letters of rec, and pedigree, frankly I expected to do better than this. I'm pretty sure that my writing sample is what sunk me at those programs.

During my MA I have become increasingly bored with formulaic collegiate papers, where the introduction consists of some stupid preview of the sections of the paper (in Section 1, I do this, in Section 2, I do that - is there anything more boring and useless to read?), the body of the paper consists of a taxonomy of 25 different interpretations of the thesis to be criticized, every single sentence is either a definition of a claim or some numbered sentence that's a candidate analysandum for some other sentence (does anyone ever really remember why (3) followed from (17) if (42) is true?), etc. I've been trying to write papers that I like to read. That's not to say that I'm abandoning rigor and writing continental papers now or anything, but I want my papers to succeed as works of prose. I don't want them to be a chore to read. However, it seems pretty clear to me (and this is confirmed by feedback that I've received from one program that rejected me) that the style of my paper made it less appealing than other samples this year. So for future applicants: don't write the writing sample that you want to read. Write the writing sample that the adcom will want to read. Don't submit your best work; submit what you think they think will be your best work. Of course this should be the obvious approach, and I'm kicking myself for not taking it. But I had some naive thought that people would be interested in my personality even where it conflicts with what is currently trendy in philosophy. 

I can't even begin to tell you how upset by all this I am. I had more success in my applications when I applied out of undergrad. I did an MA, and took three years to do so, and during those three years I became jaded with certain aspects of the field in such a way that I'm now less able to give adcoms what they want than I was as an undergrad, because I no longer want what I know they want. When I was fresh out of college I still had the zeal of the newly converted to philosophy, and nothing was cooler to me than writing 'rigorous' papers that aped journal articles I was reading. Now I'm older and philosophy is just my job, and I'm far less convinced that the best way to do philosophy is the way that it's currently done in journals. I should have taken the acceptances that I got back then and allowed myself to become jaded while comfortably funded at a top 10 program, rather than waiting to do even better and letting myself become less zealous about the current state of this discipline.

I'll probably end up at UT Austin or WUSTL, both of which are very good programs. In the end I'm sure I'll be happy where I end up, and able to pursue a fine career in philosophy. This is not the end of the world; getting into the #15 ranked program (or whatever UT Austin is) is pretty darn good. But it's upsetting, because I know I could have done better.  

Be strong. I think that you will do well where you are going. My position is that if a school rejects me, then probably it wasn't meant to be, esp. if I have a stellar record. One option you can look at is to reapply next year? I think @Coconuts&Chloroform you can do well. You can take the year off. In the skim of things, whether you start school this year or next year, it doesn't matter. Hope you are feeling better now. 

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Rejected from my dream school (UPenn).

That's nearly a wrap on this season, except for a post-bacc program at Columbia I'm waiting on. I only applied to 4 actual MS degree programs, and I have only gotten into one of them (my safety school PSU).

Honestly, I don't really care. We're in a pandemic. Silver linings: My emotionality of this is very, very much filtered through the global crisis. 

But I know that somewhere, I am disappointed--in myself and in this situation. And I'm not really sure what I should do next--go to my safety, which is ranked abysmally, and apply to dreamy schools for a PhD, aggressively doing my best to publish, hoping my GRE skyrockets after the prereqs I want? Should I just go through the cycle again, applying to programs that make more sense? These aren't rhetorical questions, I would love answers here.

I want the chance in this lifetime to go to a school where I feel surrounded by a structured and challenging intellectual environment that goes beyond anything I know, and I don't think I've had this chance in life yet. I want this someday, still.

And I want to remind everyone here that academia is a flawed system. It feels like a cop-out critique since I'm doing it after a rejection, but I've been doing my best to remind myself of this in these weeks leading up to this decision, because I knew I wanted this so damn badly. Much of this process has to do with pure luck, and does not measure your potential, the capacity to which you can be as good as you might have felt if you'd gotten in. It's also kind of horseshit that we can't meet demand for people who want to educate themselves at the highest level possible. Everyone should have the opportunity in life to be as challenged as they want to be. Hopefully someday the process of making that happen is not as demoralizing.

Wishing everyone calm and forgiveness. 

Edited by einalemjs
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23 hours ago, Quaaliaa said:

I don't think so. They've already done acceptances and waitlists though.

LOL I did finally get rejected this morning. I knew I wouldn't get in (based on what you mentioned), but this was the final school I was waiting to "officially" hear back from.

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