Engali
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Posts posted by Engali
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I'm not particularly interested in questions about the GRE's validity or lack thereof - no dog in this fight, so to speak - but I have been following the discussion a little here and there. I must say, when I read your original post earlier (before anyone had responded to you), I found the tone of your remarks to be both abrasive and patronizing. Having not posted in this thread previously, I didn't take it personally in any way, and I actually agreed with many of your points. Nonetheless, the tone was off-putting, albeit in a borderline comical way (well, well, someone put their admonishing-lecture pants on today!)
I try to err on the side of being charitable when interpreting the intent/tone of internet comments, but your responses to TXInstrument11 have annoyed me. First of all, you seized on TXI's mention of "selection bias" without actually responding to the larger point TXI was making, namely, that a correlation between GRE scores and future academic success could be explained by the fact that high scorers are more likely to be accepted into top programs. Attending top programs may lead to greater success for reasons having to do with quality of instruction, greater resources for students, etc. If this is the case, the relationship between GRE scores and later outcomes is spurious. Of course, this is an empirical question. I don't know if there's any research that tries to tease this apart or not, and I don't actually care. My point is that you were quick to dismiss TXI's point without, apparently, giving it much thought beyond noticing that the term "selection bias" was mentioned. Whatever happened to engaging with an empirical question based on careful thinking rather than just looking for ways to bolster your own point of view? You know, engaging on a deeper level, intellectual honesty, and whatnot?
Also, with respect to TXI's comments on how he/she perceived your tone, your reply doesn't make much sense. For one thing, it seems the point of TXI's criticism of you personally was meant to be just that -- a judgment about how you chose to word your original post. I don't see where he/she tried to undermine your claims by attacking you personally, so "ad hominem" is a strange response. The "sanctimonious ass" bit was intended as criticism of your tone, not the argument you made. If Mary turns to Sue and says, "My God you're stupid" and Sue shouts, "ad hominem!" in response, well...
Your second reply to TXI was similarly odd: "So your argument amounts to re-assertion of your point?" This is a puzzling response given that there's no argument involved. There's an impression/perception/judgment/etc. involved. TXI read your comment(s) as sanctimonious and condescending. This is a subjective matter - thus, there's no argument to be made. Suppose Sue says to Mary, "It's clear from your tone that you're just kidding." Is her response to Mary's comment an argument, replete with underlying premises by which she reasons to the conclusion that Mary was kidding? Or is the statement functioning as a description of how Sue interpreted what Mary said and what conclusion she has drawn based on that impression? If Mary responds, "So, you claim that it sounded like I was kidding, eh? Prove it!" Well...Finally, have you considered that, for people who are at the applying stage of grad school and score poorly on the GRE, dismissing the predictive validity of the test may be adaptive?That's a fair point and you're entitled to your interpretation of my posts. I personally felt like no one was really giving the GREs specifically or the massive body of research on cognitive tests fair treatment whatsoever. What was particularly frustrating, as I have already mentioned, is that the arguments made were misinterpretations or outright mistakes in understanding of the data, results, or measurement concepts. What was staggeringly ironic was that the criticisms surrounded well-established research findings within the domain people are trying to pursue an academic career in.
There are people who are smart and motivated who have worked hard to develop and research the validity these tests; it's unlikely they haven't considered issues about cognitive ability testing that people in this thread raised. Researching those results would be a good first step in making a case against the validity of the tests in question. Understanding and accurately reporting those results in making arguments would be the next step. These are part and parcel of what being in a graduate program entails. In short, sitting in judgment of something without adequately researching it won't fly in a PhD program and it certainly won't work for your own research. And that was happening throughout this thread. To me, I just think no on likes being chastised or criticized; if you want to take me to task for being patronizing and abrasive, so be it.
Yes, my responses to TXI about selection bias misinterpreted what she meant, assuming your interpretation is correct, and for that I apologize. When people speak of selection bias as an argument against validity, it usually follows what I was talking about. However, her point is already addressed when the authors speak of "criterion contamination" and the unlikelihood of that occurring. If that was indeed what TXI meant, I would assume she would have read the paper carefully enough at that point to not make a point that was already addressed directly in the paper itself. See also in the discussion section that indicates the low SDs for the operational validities indicates that are likely not moderators in the GRE score-performance relationships. Thus, it is unlikely that program quality moderates these relationships. Also, this line of reasoning also ignores that although top programs may have more resources, top programs arguably have a commensurately high level of grading standards that may make it a wash entirely. Regarding greater quality of instruction, that is unlikely in that top programs tend to be research-focused where relatively less emphasis and contingent rewards are placed on delivering quality instruction compared to publications for professors.
To your point, I disagree that TXI points were solely regarding my tone. She told me to get off my high horse and resorted to ad hominems. My counterargument was that I didn't put myself on a high horse in that I wasn't claiming moral or intellectual superiority. In response, she simply reasserted I was on a high horse rather than pointing out where I was claiming moral or intellectual superiority in my original posts. Just because the matter is subjective/ a judgement/ a perception doesn't mean you simply don't have to defend your point of view or that resorting to ad hominems is ok. For example, the stance that the subject matter GRE test should be used rather than the general GRE test is a completely subjective stance that actually has to be argued for. Many of the arguments made when doing research, in developing a theory or an interpretation of results, are rather subjective need to be argued for; data and results simply lend support for your arguments.
Finally, as far as whether this is adaptive or not, I have considered it and the bulk of research would suggest that these types of behaviors (e.g., questioning the validity of feedback) to defend one's sense of self-esteem is actually maladaptive in the long run. Because you don't take the feedback as valid, you don't change your strategies or behaviors to perform more effectively. Consequently, you don't learn how to perform better because you reject the very feedback that would indicate trouble spots. Alternative strategies such as self-compassion appear to be more adaptive.
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I concede-- the operational validities are stronger, yet still negative on some measures for time to completion. Maybe rejecting a predictor isn't the answer.. but for the degree of faith (and billions of dollars) invested in the testing industry, I think it is reasonable to expect stronger correlations.
Test bias undermines construct validity, though.
Also note that when I reference retention, it is in the context of enrollment into degree completion. PhD programs want to invest in students who persist into degree completion on opposed to students who drop out, yes?
Which brings me to another point... what is it about the selection process in European schools that results in higher rates of degree completion? How can they pull it off without the GRE?
I think that cognitive ability can only predict so much, even when talking about an endeavor like grad school where performance is so highly related to cognitive ability. In composite, it does a really good job. And I'm not certain it actually is given as much weight as people think. Some schools use a simple cutoff score and others use it in combination with other pieces of information. It might be used as a tie breaker between two promising candidates that are otherwise very closely matched. There are few things that, with as little logistical constraint, can be as predictive of proxy measures of general mental ability and acquired skills, knowledge, etc.
I'm not sure that test bias actually puts construct validity into question. Again, these terms have very specific meanings. In any case, I looked up some research on possible reasons for differences in performance between subgroups. The report by Stricker (2008) found no evidence of stereotype threat in practice, that is, in real-world settings. They do admit that it would be premature to reject the possibility that stereotype threat occurs in real-world settings. However, the phenomenon has only really emerged in tightly-controlled social psych lab experiments, which have their own critiques regarding their external validity (e.g., Adam Grant's CARMA talk on quasi-experiements).
Within that same report they mention that measurement invariance is rarely investigated, but Rock et al. (1982) found that the then-version of the GRE was found to be measurement invariant across gender groups and the race/ethnicity subgroups that were investigated (black vs. white). So the items appear to be perceived the same across subgroups and tap into the same, underlying construct.
When looking at different "cognitively loaded" tests, certain consistent findings emerge (Sackett et al., 2001). First, they predict performance across a broad range of domains, particularly more so when the performance itself is highly cognitive related. Second, certain differences in scores between sub-group means emerge. Differences in sub-group mean scores does not necessarily indicate cultural or predictive bias; they could be tapping into true differences between groups. In the same article, they point that out that an extensive body of research has shown test bias has rarely been indicated. In fact, when it has occurred, the bias has consistently over predicted performance for minority group members.
I would agree that faculty member want people who attain their degree. Having said that, they also want people to perform well while in the program. So both are important, and since these scores are such robust indicators of performance within the program, it still makes sense to include them. It's unclear in your comparison how well the graduate students in other countries do during their program compared to the US students. Sure, there are higher levels of degree attainment, but that doesn't speak to the quality of their performance.
Stricker, L. J. (2008). The Challenge of Stereotype Threat for the Testing Community, (July).
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Referring to the table on pg. 169... these correlations aren't that impressive at all. They only used first year GPA and the correlations produced by long term measures (for example, degree attainment and research productivity) are even weaker.
Also, students who had a different major are typically required to take the psych subject GREs when applying to non-clinical programs, and most programs require all applicants to submit the subject GREs if they are applying to a clinical program... so I am skeptical that requiring the subject GRE would create more barriers for students who had a different major because they are required to take the subject GRE, anyway. Replacing the GRE general with another assessment for college admissions isn't that drastic of a change-- ETS started aggressively promoting the GRE as a replacement for the GMAT in business school admissions when it became profitable for ETS to do so (GMAT broke away from ETS and became an independent entity, AKA competition)
Here is my reputable source on group means by gender and race, btw: http://www.ets.org/s/gre/pdf/snapshot_test_taker_data.pdf
Similar gaps exist with the SAT.
It also points out some concerning results in terms of age, too.
Using the GRE or SAT as a predictor of success becomes problematic when performance on these assessments directly contradict performance in the classroom (see pretty much every piece of research ever done on academic success/failure and retention by gender).
What hypothesis would you use to explain these gaps? I, for one, would like to see differential prediction/measurement invariance studies done with the previously mentioned subgroups...
You're looking at the sample-size corrected correlations. When looking at a meta-analysis the "true" correlations, called operational validities here, should be looked at. They are bolded in the table and are likely correcting for unreliability in the predictor and criterion.
That you didn't find them (the sample size-corrected correlations--again, you should be looking at the operational validities which are much larger) impressive doesn't really take into the account the effect sizes that can be expected to be found in social science research. Cohen (1992) and this article itself (pg. 168) considers most of these corrected correlations to be moderately large. The weighted composite of the general GRE would be considered large. So just because it seems weak doesn't make them so when considered within the context of social science research.
Also, you missed that GGPA measures GPA in graduate school beyond the 1st year, usually as the final GPA, and the various GRE component scores were all moderately large in predicting this.
The authors discuss and mention that are certainly a lot of non cognitive and situational variables that may explain or moderate the relationships between GRE and other criterion such as degree attainment and research productivity. Again, nothing is perfect. No one said anything predicts anything else perfectly. The point is whether it predicts validly. And your qualms about the "weak" correlations and variance explained is already addressed within the article itself on pg. 176 starting with "The argument that one should reject a predictor because the variance accounted for is only 1%, 2%, 5% or 10% is shortsighted, not to mention potentially wrong (Ozer, 1985)."
The test bias/fairness argument is really a separate one altogether from validity which has a very specific and clear meaning within the social sciences. Btw, the article does show that the GRE is a valid predictor for non-traditional students (i.e., those over 30) and the GRE-Q is actually a better predictor of GGPA for non-native speakers than for the entire sample
Retention is really not a good metric for performance within a grad program because people are by definition no longer in the program when they leave. There are so many factors that predict this outcome--some like flagging interest in the topic, practical concerns about making money after starting a family, etc..
I don't have any hypotheses about the difference in scoring on these tests. As I have said, this is a thorny issue and something that people who create general mental ability tests grapple with as well. There are very consistent differences between race groups in these GMA tests, for example. Some have said that the items are biased in that they assume knowledge that some racial groups have experienced. When items are created by subject matter experts of the racial groups' associated "culture" (whole different can of worms) are tasked with writing/approving items that are not biased, the performance gap actually gets worse. I personally think a small part of this worsening effect is a result of stereotype threat, but I'm not entirely sure. In any case, there are people constantly trying to make these tests more fair and less biased, but there are no easy answers in how to go about doing this or what could explain the gap that emerges in performance between groups. i find some comfort in knowing that academia at large and psychologists in particular tend to be very sympathetic to minorities and fight for fairness on their behalf with their research. People are trying and nothing is perfect.
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I, for one, remain underwhelmed with that -.08 correlation!!!
For such a high-stakes exam, I think it is reasonable for one to expect stronger correlations. It looks like things get a little funky after 1st year GGPA, too.
The financial burden argument makes no sense... There's a simple solution: universities can scrap the general GREs and use the subject GREs. Such a policy change would save students $35.
Consider also that women and minorities have lower means on all subscales of the GREs. If the GRE truly predicts graduate success, then wouldn't it be a lost cause to let women and minorities into graduate school? How can one justify having nonwhites and women in higher education?
I do not see the -.08 correlation. What is the criterion? And what do you mean it gets funky after 1st year GGPA?
Your simple solution is actually not that simple in practice. You want every university with a graduate school to agree to no longer accept the general GRE and instead have each department accept subject GREs that have more to do with acquired content knowledge. As Kuncel and colleagues suggest offhand, this would do a disservice to everyone who majored in one thing in undergrad, but realized they wanted to pursue a different field in their graduate career. The point of the general GRE is to predict acquisition of knowledge and skills in your graduate career.
I haven't looked at the data on the lower means for women and minorities (please refer to reputable source) and it's definitely a thorny one. The key word in you argument is "truly." The GRE "truly" predicts grad school performance in the sense that, as a weighted composite, it significantly predicts performance as a fact. That's not to say that it "truly" predicts grad school performance if you are to use the definition of truly as to mean "to the fullest degree." The problem from there is that your inference is incorrect: people who tend to score lower are not "lost causes". Women and minorities may have lower group means, but the distribution of individual scores would indicate that women and minorities still score highly. Furthermore, the GRE is not a perfect predictor, so committees still do overlook suboptimal GRE scores when everything else is stellar.
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No, it is quite clear in your post that you see yourself as taking the moral and intellectual high ground. You don't see how condescending your entire tirade was because you think you are there.
Think I am where?
So your argument amounts to re-assertion of your point? I made a claim that there was a lack of intellectual honesty when it came to examining the *validity* of the GRE in predicting grad school success. The point wasn't whether or not who was more or less biased or smart, but the willingness to look up research and look at the data/results. FFS the Psych Bull article was free on Google Scholar and published over a decade ago in one of the best journals within psychology.
The constant nitpicking about how it doesn't predict all indices of performance perfectly ignores the larger context of nothing be a near perfect predictor or the fact that nothing thus far predicts grad school performance better as a weighted composite of predictors. Just look at table 9 and see how much more predictive UGPA is beyond the GRE.
It's like when you questioned the "selection bias" of the article without thinking through the implications of what that would mean. You wanted to prove your point so you threw something out there that worked against your argument because you didn't think through what the "selection bias" would actually do to the data. This is what I am talking about regarding intellectual honesty: thinking through what the data and methods are actually telling us instead of what we want it to tell us.
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First, you need to get off your high horse. We actually did discuss the predictive validity of the GRE, including the analysis of a Quant psych student who worked for ETS. Before reading the article you posted, I had simply never seen high predictive validity for the GRE before.
However, how did they control for selection bias? Good schools who can demand higher GRE scores typically have superior resources and training for their students. Due to reputation, they also tend to attract the best, most ambitious students.
Second, you act as if you are immune to bias, which is a blind spot in itself. Let me guess - you did well on the GRE? People who do well on the SAT subsequently put more stock in it and people who do poorly on the SAT do the opposite (what you assume of us) . I highly doubt that you went into researching the GRE's validity as a bastion of purely objective, scientific thought. Your own bias doesn't change the numbers - which look good here-but it does mean you are being a sanctimonious ass.
Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I am on a high horse. I never claimed intellectual/moral/etc. superiority. I simply pointed out that the evidence is there to look at is more objective than the rash of overly emotional opinions on the matter. The issue was, and is as evidenced in your post, that you can't have a simple discussion about this topic without resorting to petty ad hominems and emotional appeals.
Your selection bias argument actually works against your point because the range restriction that would occur from only receiving people who scored highly on the GREs lowers the correlation that would occur if we included the full range of scores.
Second, I did not act as though I am immune to bias; it's inherent in being human. The point is to recognize that, which I didn't see in the knee-jerk reactions to GREs and frankly pure rationalizations about it being an invalid predictor of grad school success. The larger point is that the research is already out there--but most of you were more interested in tearing the test down instead of looking for objective evidence of the test's validity. That is the problem.
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I would highly recommend retaking it. I did a 3 month prep schedule. 2-3 hours a day, 4-5 on weekends.
You're very fortunate to get into the Wake Forrest MA program. I've heard it's very research focused and should prepare you very well for a PhD.
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I know people are passionate about the topic, but as future academics we really need to have at least some amount of intellectual honesty when it comes to any topic under discussion. This is particularly salient when we're talking about an area within the province of psychology (i.e., psychometrics and psychological testing).
The bottom line is nothing is perfect as a predictor of any outcome. That's just a fact of life. What we have is good evidence that the GRE in general, including the GRE-Q, is a good predictor of grad school "success" across a wide range of operationalizations. The one that has been nitpicked to death in this article:
http://internal.psychology.illinois.edu/~nkuncel/gre%20meta.pdf
is time to completion. It can be easily argued that how quickly one moves through a program is a poor index of "success" as long as the length isn't excessive. For example, my professor advisor suggests doing six instead of five years in my PhD program because it gives you a year to dedicate to research that you wouldn't have if you were a junior faculty member having to mentor students and teach classes. Is the opportunity cost in first year wages worth the potential long-term gain in landing a better job in a better school because of a stronger CV? Well, it's working out really well for my professor advisor to put it mildly.
The larger issue is that the world isn't perfect. The very arguments used to question the *validity* of the GRE (which, btw, isn't actually put into question because the data already shows otherwise) in this thread conflict. Yes, the subject GRE is a slightly better predictor than the general GRE on the one hand, but on the other hand others have mentioned paying for even the general GRE is burdensome. The requirement set forth by the *graduate schools* of universities demand a general GRE--in this regard, the psychology departments hands are tied in that they must at least require these test scores. How can you then suggest using subject GREs when it would further disenfranchise those who are already struggling to pay for the general GRE in the first place? The problem is that we live in a limited world with limited resources and many moving parts. This is life and you deal with it.
The overarching concern I have with all that I have read in this thread is this contempt for the GRE and dismissal of this validity because you don't *like* what it stands for in your minds. This constant refrain of "well grad schools need something to winnow down the list" and "it's just a way to narrow the list down." The validity of the GRE is an *empirical question* and isn't subject to your whims or values. This is how science needs to be approached in general. Can it be better? Sure. Is it perfect? See above. Does it predict grad school success? Arguably better than most any other standardized way of comparing candidates and predicting success. As aspiring scientists I would expect you all to approach these types of empirical questions with some restraint in how it affects you personally. What's particularly ironic is that you all want to be part of a field that spawned these types of tests in the first place.
There is good reason the GRE is used as a way to select candidates: it predicts performance. Are there other things that also predict performance? Sure. Personality measures have incremental validity in predicting performance. But if your personality profile worked to your detriment in getting accepted somewhere, would you then question the validity of those tests? If any test or predictor worked to your detriment, would you then question the validity of those tests? Again, intellectual honesty is key to scientific progress, which may not always work in your favor or to your benefit. You might want to check how willing you are to put your personal concerns aside when if you want to pursue psychology using the scientific method.
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Thanks for this. I've been accepted to two fully-funded PhDs at good schools, but at the end of the day I don't feel like either of them fit well, so I am seriously considering waiting another year and applying again. It's a bit terrifying but it seems like a better option than spending 5 years at a place I don't really want to be. I'm not sure I would have seriously considered that option if you hadn't posted this.
You're very welcome. If you feel in your heart of hearts that it isn't a good fit, I would definitely consider the reasons why you might feel that. From my experience thus far, concerns about the surrounding area or night life, weather, proximity to family, etc. are really not going to make much of a difference. A match between your research interests and your advisor's main research area, personality fit, and fit with the ethos of the program culture is critical. Feel free to post here or message me in private for advice. I was on here a LOT during my application cycles and got much needed insight and support. Feels good to be able to give back.
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Poll: how many IO programs do interviews? Just wondering,
It's becoming more and more common as the field is gaining recognition. This has traditionally not been the case. However, there are just so many candidates now that schools are interviewing people to break "ties" when people seem so strong on paper.
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I just wanted to pop in and give a word of advice. Having been through 3 application cycles (1 masters, 2 PhD), I think I am somewhat qualified to impart some words of wisdom.
I would carefully consider paying for a PhD program. Your passion can blind you to economic realities. You should not take on more debt than what you can reasonably expect your first year's gross salary after getting a job. Remember that the data for average I/O salary is heavily skewed by outliers (you should have researched this) and does not separate academic salaries from industry salaries. I went in thinking I wanted to become a consultant. An internship and my current advisory has made me heavily lean towards academia as a career path. That means I will likely make less money than had I gone the consulting route. Priorities and interests change.
I did a masters and I took on debt to do so. It was the right choice for me because I needed to prove that I could do graduate level work given my mediocre undergrad GPA. If there are areas in your application that are more easily addressed, I would strongly recommend taking the year to do that instead of doing a masters because you think it will give you a leg up. The bigger lesson here is not to be impulsive in your decision-making simply because you want to get in. This extends to what offer to take if you were fortunate enough to be extended offers you like.
The cycle after I completed my master's, I applied to PhD programs and I got one sure offer and another really good potential offer. I found out through graduate students at the visitation weekend that the latter offer would not be good for me for reasons I won't mention. So I essentially declined all offers (i.e., intentionally shot myself in the foot at the bad-fit place) and did another cycle. I am now at a much more prestigious program with an advisor that I deeply admire, one who is shaping me to be a better person in addition to being a productive researcher. Had I gone the "easy" route, I would be infinitely worse off. Don't settle or sell yourself short. Do whatever it takes to get into the very best program for you and your needs now while also seriously considering what your long game is. Good luck and take care.
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a. Were the articles you wrote for ed psych first author? Were they published? If so, what journals? How is that related to topics within I/O? Btw, you obviously don't have to tell us, but be prepared to talk succinctly and tactfully about why you got Ds and Fs in undergrad.
b. I would consider retaking the GREs to up to your Math GRE score. TBH you're quite competitive, but top programs seem to have an average GRE score of ~1400 for accepted students
c. I would start to zero in on your research interests and actually research it. I would also start making a list of master's programs and start looking at the CV of faculty at these programs. You want a research and personality fit with your professor-advisor.
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Based on the conversions, my quant score would be in the 60th percentile, while verbal was only in the 50th. I'm pretty sure I can raise both a couple points which will hopefully help. I can never tell how heavily weighted GRE scores are for these programs. Is it also okay to have really narrow interests in your SoP? What if there's only one professor that's studying what you want to at a university? Is it okay to only include one in your SoP? Any advice would be helpful. Thank you for your input!
The whole GRE score thing...it really varies by department. I would say that most use it as a first hurdle to weed out apps, but some use it as part of the application as a whole to get a holistic picture of who the candidate is and their strengths/weaknesses. I will say that if you want to be competitive for the top programs that you will want to raise your Quant score to at least 75%. Verbal seems to be less heavily weighted, but I wouldn't look past it, either.
As far as interests, being focused is good, but I think being narrow is very limiting. If your interests are really narrow, then you will have issues finding people who are researching what you want. I would start to think about how your research interests intersects with the broader topic areas that make up I and O and start from there. You will probably do research that looks at your specific interest in the context of the larger topic or how your interest relates to a construct or constructs in a related area. I do think it is okay to mention just one professor, but from experience I will tell you I was glad I didn't and it actually worked out worlds better for me in every conceivable way. Sometimes you think you know what you want to learn and then you realize you really didn't even know how much you were interested in something else. Read this:
http://www.siop.org/tip/oct11/07campion.aspx
Your interests will very likely change during your grad school career. What's important is finding an advisor who has interests that are generally similar enough. Beyond that, I think their publication history/trend (should be strong and trending upward) and personality fit with yours is vital to your long term success in grad school. I can not emphasize this enough.
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Hi everyone,
I'm currently in my senior of college and preparing to apply to I/O programs in the Fall for programs starting in Fall 2015. I've been doing massive amounts of research on I/O schools and stumbled upon this forum. Since you all seem to have so much experience in applying, I was wondering if you could give me insight in to if I'd be a competitive applicant for PhD/Masters programs.
GPA: 3.6
Jr/Sr GPA: 3.7
Psych GPA: 3.9
GRE V: 151
GRE Q: 155 (retaking GRE in July and most likely August)
Analytical: 4
Research Experience:
- won a research poster fair through the psychology department at my college for the complexity and creativity of my design
- have participated in two I/O labs for 1 year (coding, rating, and data entry experience)
- earned a position that put me and another coordinator in charge of all the undergraduates in the research lab
- participation in an assessment center
- have worked in an office environment at a medical billing office for two years
- will have two fairly solid letters of rec from the research labs I'm working in, another from work
Any advice/input would be incredibly helpful! Thanks!
Any advice/input would be incredibly helpful! Thanks!
Your app will be very strong. I don't know the conversion for the GRE scores though since I took them before they switched to this format. Do you know what percentile scores you got?
If you can get a publication out there, that would obviously make you much more comeptitive, but it certainly isn't necessary. I think your background makes you a strong candidate because you should be able to write intelligently about what your interests in I/O are in you SoP. I could seek out the people who are doing research in the area you want to work in and start emailing them about your interest in their line of research.
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Hello all!
Over the past year or so I have read posts on this forum which I have found to be incredibly helpful, and consequently brought me back seeking advice. I am a rising senior (psychology major business minor) at a small liberal arts university, and I am interested in pursuing a graduate degree in I/O psychology. From all of the resources I have gathered, I feel that the Ph. D. route is best for my aspirations. That being said, I am feeling a bit discouraged about acceptance to the point where applying seems daunting, and a possible waste of time/money/resources.
My current credentials: GPA- I know I am fine (>3.95, 4.0 in psychology). GRE- has yet to be taken; I have been studying with a book and flashcards for the past two weeks and plan on continuing to do so until I take it in July/August. Letters of Recommendation- I have verbal commitments for 3 letters, 2 from psychology faculty (dept. chair and 1 tenured professor) and 1 from the Dean of students (I have worked as an RA the past year, and was hired for senior year to work with the professional residence life staff as the head RA and be in charge of 1 area of on-campus housing). What I am lacking, however, is what I consider to be the most important area: research/publication/presentations. I am currently working on a senior research project (a capstone project, if you will) which will be done by the time I am applying. Although I am working with a professor, it is much more of a mentorship role, as this project is graded and is a graduation requirement for the psychology degree. I am also currently working on an honors research project (required, for graduation from the honors college, which I chose to turn into another psych research project) which will not be completed by the application deadlines due to the nature of the study. There is also the possibility of a third project in conjunction with one of the other psychology faculty (once again, not to be completed until after applications are due). However, as far as publication/presentation goes, I will be attempting to submit my work for both, but at this time have neither, and will not by the time applications are submitted. Due to unfortunate circumstances in the department and the nature of being at a very small school, I was unable to work with any professors and get my name on anything.
My questions are: based on my credentials, is it worth continuing to pursue acceptance at Ph. D. programs at this point in time? If not, what would the best course of action be to get there (e.g. apply for a Masters? Take a year off and acquire more skills? etc…) If so, what should I do to try and better my chances at acceptance?
Reading other posts/resources and understanding the reality of the acceptance rates at Ph. D. programs, I have been discouraged lately. Any advice or insight is more than welcomed J Also, if there is any more information that I can provide which would be helpful let me know.
Thank you for your time and consideration!
Don't be discouraged. It's competitive, but certainly not impossible. I have a similar background to you, but didn't do nearly as well in undergrad. Consequently, I had to "prove myself" by doing a master's. By the greatest of good fortune, I now find myself in a really good I/O PhD program with an advisor that is as much a role model as he is a mentor.
Obviously, get as much research experience as you can. Aside from that, I recommend that you buy a used copy of one of the major I/O textbooks (by Muchinsky or Spector) for cheap, read through it, and figure out what in I/O genuinely interests you. Then figure out who is doing research in those areas and use that to guide which programs you apply to. You will be more competitive becasue researchers want to work with those who are passionate about their research topics. If you can show an understanding of the state of the field/research area and articulate what you would want to explore and why that is important in your SOP, you will have a leg up. This may not be the advice you were looking for, but I think it is the best advice anyone can give you right now given the circumstances. Know what you want to research, target your program selection based off of this, and apply. Forget most of the ranking systems out there. Many are outdated; some programs' reputations have been built on the backs of researchers who are long gone. Work wtih someone who is doing work on something you love. If yoiu don't, you may find yourself researching something you hate and working with someone you can't stand. In other words, you will be in for a bad time. The top key factors in thriving in a PhD program are loving what you're researching and being compatible with your professor/advisor in terms of personality and research interests. It is vital that you keep this in mind as you move through the application cycle and start interviewing, which is actually becoming more and more common despite what the siop.org program page would lead you to believe.
Alright, I'm done ranting. Dig deep and good luck.
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OP,
You're a strong a candidate. The one thing that sticks out to me as a potential issue is that it does seem like you jumped ship from Clinical and are going into I/O probably because it has better career prospects at this point in time. I know--that was a complete mind read, but regardless of whether I am right or wrong, that is how it seems. Why?
You didn't say specifically what areas of I/O interest you. Your interest in I/O seems to spring from a waning interest in Clinical and isn't driven as much by I/O itself. Honestly, right now before you go off to do some research, do you know the difference between I and O? Do you know the major topic areas? Even more importantly, have you found professors who have I/O research interests that match your I/O research interests?
I/O programs are getting more and more competitive each cycle. If you want to stand out, I suggest you get a good I/O texbook used off Amazon (an edtion or two older and it should be less than $20), read through the entire thing, and figure out what you're actually interested in. From there, find out who the major and up-and-coming players are in those research areas. Apply to programs based off of what you find. You will be much more competitive in that you will have something of substance to say about I/O in your SOP that is informed by current research in the field and demonstrate a genuine interest in a research area.
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All I really did was to review and re-review the Gleitman book. I also ran through as many practice tests as I could in the old Kaplan guide I got. I did pretty well.
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I have a question on a similar topic. I'm new to the forum and may start my own thread but I thought I'd try here first. I am in an experimental psychology Ph.D. program. My research is on personality and social pscyhology in the workplace. Do you think that this degree would be marketable as an I/O degree? Would a post doc in I/O help if not? I thought about switching programs after my MA this year but that would be a huge hastle seeing as I would have to leave the state. If I could do everything with a Ph.D. in experimental psychology that I could do with a Ph.D. in I/O then I would much rather stay here. Help!
Depends on what you mean by marketable. For some applied jobs you would be because they aren't necessarily looking for a psychology PhD with a specialization in I/O in particular. Those jobs are really looking more for advanced quantitative and research methodology skills in a job applicant. Do a little research and you'll find jobs that say as much--that they are looking for a PhD in x, y, z field, but would prefer I/O.
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If you're not passionate about I/O topics, you probably shouldn't apply imho to an I/O program. That's obviously just an opinion.
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What are your research interests? This is pretty much going to be the crux for you as far as where you end up; fit with a professor's research interests is key. Another consideration that you really shouldn't underestimate is how your personality fits with your professor's. That's something you probably won't find out until visitation weekend, although some professors will call/Skype you early on.
You have the stats to be competitive, but after seeing more than my fair share of application cycles I will tell you that the market is rough for applicants. Penn State, for example, in the last few years has had double the amount of their normal, average number of applications prior to the spike. It's been like that for a lot of good schools.
Bottom line is that you are competitive for all the programs you're applying to more or less. Some schools on your list have idiosyncrasies in the type of students they accept (based off of my research into their student profiles) I've noticed that you really can't do anything about at this point, so don't stress over that stuff. Having said that, you might want to consider putting in some safeties just to be safe, frankly. If you think you already have, then you're underestimating how competitive applying to I/O programs has become. Again, not a comment on how "competitive" you are, just letting you know some information from the trenches. I feel like people are fleeing the job market in droves and hoping to hide out in academia for the next several years. That doesn't make you any less objectively competitive, just relatively so given the increased pool of applicants that schools can choose from.
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Hey,
I have been looking at that Gleitman text on amazon, looking for this magical review, but I am assuming it is located elsewhere. Any ideas as to where? Or what she prescribed.
Thanks!
Char
Hey,
I have been looking at that Gleitman text on amazon, looking for this magical review, but I am assuming it is located elsewhere. Any ideas as to where? Or what she prescribed.
Thanks!
Char
Like I said, it was in a review for a study guide where she mentioned Gleitman's book. Here it is (top review):
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Saint Louis U's I/O program has a consulting firm.
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Hey,
I went through something a bit similar and I made it into a very competitive PhD program. It's not in Clinical, but I think I have some insights that may be helpful:
1) As already mentioned, there's very little you can do with a master's in Clinical Psychology. I personally would recommend a general psychology or experimental psychology master's. The argument against this is that you aren't really trained to do anything besides research, so the practical value of this approach is low if you don't pursue or don't get into a PhD program. Obviously, the counterargument to that is that research experience is the single most important factor in you PhD application that you have control over now; doing a master's that emphasizes building research skills and exposes you to the research process is invaluable for this reason. However, I actually did a master's in the specialization I'm doing my PhD in (I/O), so it worked out for me even though I didn't go into a general/experimental psychology master's program. Whatever you do, make sure it's cheap and that they have a *requirement* that you do a *empirical thesis* that involves the entire formal process you would go through in doing a thesis during a PhD program (i.e. adviser, thesis committee, etc.) That way you may actually be able to use it to fulfill the req for the PhD program in the future. Note what I emphasized and make sure it hits all those criteria.
2. Frankly, it did for me, but it may not for you. Research experience is by far the most valuable thing and you need to focus on this regardless of what you do next. That may mean doing a master's and it may not, depending on the opportunities available to you. From my experience, it's extremely hard to get really anyone to let you help them with research if you can't demonstrate that you already have a lot of experience doing it (damn chicken/egg problem), so the master's was worth it for me to have research opportunities. Still, there weren't as many opportunities as I would have liked, but that's just the nature of most master's programs that aren't general/experimental psychology master's. Doing a master's did give me the chance to show I can hack it in graduate courses. My undergraduate GPA and even psychology GPA were much worse than yours. Granted, I went to fairly well-know liberal arts school that cast my otherwise abysmal GPA in a better light, but it's low even by master's admission standards. I pulled a 3.96 GPA in my master's and graduated summa cum laude. My professor in the PhD program will be starting this fall said the master's GPA definitely put some of his concerns about my previous academic performance to rest and displayed passion and commitment to the field.
3. You can find relatively cheap master's programs and some are even funded. If you can, work while you're doing it. Seriously. It's really the debt from just living expenses that will kill you in the long run. I would say if you can keep the debt at 20k-25k max from start to finish then it may be worth it assuming your undergraduate debt is the national average of about 25k. Do not exceed what you think you can reasonably expect first year working full time out of your PhD program, which should be about 50-60k depending on region. Having said that, you're banking on getting into a PhD program from this. Be careful.
4. I dunno, do research. If you don't want to this field is not for you lol
. It's a gamble, but it worked out for me as far as I can tell. Now for the PhD itself!5. Where I went is not relevant to your situation. Do some research.
The only other thing I would mention is to kill the GREs. I got a 1450 (720 V, 730 Q, 5.0 W) and I'm pretty sure it helped me stand out. I also did the Psych GREs and got a 760 (94%) and I think that might have helped. The point is to figure out what are the most important factors that are in your control, figure out how to maximize your efforts by focusing them on the most important things, and then get to work.
So my adviser told me today she thinks I would be better suited to go from a masters to a PhD. A little bummed about this but I'm not trying to let it bog me down mainly because deep down I know it's best. I want to go into Clinical.
So, now that I'm going down the masters track I don't know what to do and my adviser just keeps saying 'check gradschools.com'. So I have a few questions
- Is it smarter to go to a masters program IN clinical (few and far between it seems) or do I simply need a masters program in any psychology with hopefully a focusin Clinical? For example, Boston U has a MA in Psychology, but you can focus on Clinlcal. A few other schools (American, for example) have an actual Clinical Masters; but schools that are well name and simply not 'for profit' that have these degrees are hard to find. A MA in Psych is more common, but will that just be wasted time? Do i specifically NEED a Masters in clinical to get into a clinical PhD program?
- I know there is probably no number, and it still requires work, but does a Masters actually help?According to my adviser I'm probably not competitive enough for PhD with my stats (see below), hence they suggest the Masters. If I do well in the masters program does it actually help or do admissions boards only see 'oh he couldn't make it in undergrad so he HAD to do a masters'.
- Masters generally do not have funding like PhDs...am I going to have to go into outrageous debt? My family isn't well off, being mostly elderly and sick...thus a PhD was very interesting to me because it's funded. Im wary of going and donig a Masters becasue I dont want to be in outrageous debt. How do I at least cut the debt down or are there funded masters?
- Are there programs that allow you once you're done your masters to transfer right into your phd? Boston U says you have to apply using a seperate application which is fine, I just wanted to know if schools have a 'slide in' program. I know a lot of the time you're taking your classes with other PhD students so it doesn't matter much especailly if you intend to go to that school anyway, but I'm simply really worried I bust my ass doing my Masters and my undergrad GPA will still prevent me from getting in anyway...AND I'll be in debt.
- Is there anyone out there in a masters program, or have went from Masters > PhD, who knows of some good schools or programs? I know a few schools I want to go to for my PhD and i'm already consdiering Boston U, American for my masters but I would like some more guided help if possible.
My stats are
Psychology (BA), Clinical and Developmental Certificates, Honors Track, Psi Chi Member
GPA: 3.3
Major GPA: 3.8
1 publication
GRE (v) 168, (q) 166
2 labs; 1 neuro lab for 4 semesters and 1 summer lab at Northeastern social sciences lab
LoRs from both labs and 1 teacher
African American Male
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I'm no expert, but saying a place is a top choice and then saying you need time to come to a decision about whether or not to go there seems disingenuous. I would re-word it.
Low quant GRE: successes and failures
in Psychology Forum
Posted
The total package does matter. I completely agree. I personally had really subpar UGPA. But my professor advisor saw something in me and took a risk.
My point is not to make it seem like a low GRE score is a death sentence of that you are incapable of being a good grad student.