Teluog
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Posts posted by Teluog
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I've been considering this for a while now. But what is a "regionally accredited nonsectarian" school?I would agree that your faculty at Emmanuel likely won't be helpful for research doctoral admissions, mostly simply because most of them haven't gone through that process and aren't engaged in choosing doctoral applicants. (I'm a little wary at some implicit anti-evangelical vibe that can sometimes happen on this forum, and want to make sure I'm avoiding that...it's a question of experience and not intelligence.)
I'll continue to hold by what I wrote earlier. Don't go get a second bachelors. Instead, see if you can transfer to regionally accredited (preferably nonsectarian) school and finish out with a BA there. It might take two years to cover the requirements, but that's a lot less than four to do an entirely different degree. It might not hurt you to have a BRE, but it won't help you either—which is what you really have to consider with PhD applications.
I just noticed that Tyndale in Toronto offers a BA in Bible & Theology (including an honours option). They can take up to half the coursework required for a degree in transfer courses.
And that raises another important question: how does one stand out among the competition?I've written this elsewhere, but top-tier PhD admissions are not so much about checking off boxes and making sure you have all the requirements to be admitted. Everyone who is a legitimate candidate will have those boxes checked; it's about standing out among all of those people. Yes, of course, there are always outliers at every school, but they are seen as outliers for a reason.
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Language is actually one thing I hope to take care of before I actually go to apply. My question with this is whether or not I should pursue Hebrew and Aramaic and any other ANE language for credit during school or if I should tackle them in my spare time with self study.3. One thing about preparing for OT doctoral studies (and this is coming from an OT major) - languages, languages, languages! This was what No One told me during my undergrad, and now a good part of my MA is being spent on scurrying to catch up on all the languages I need/don't have. You will definitely need more than one year's worth of Bibical Hebrew and Greek; other semitic languages are important too - Aramaic, Ugaritic, Akkadian, Syriac if you're into the reception history of the Old Testament, and if you're into the Ancient Near East, West Semitic, Sumerian, Hittite, and Middle Egyptian. And, of course, the most important Semitic language of all: German.*
You don't need to have all those languages, btw! I was just trying to be comprehensive-ish. But you'll definitely need (to be competitive): Biblical Hebrew and Greek at at least an intermediate level, one or two additional semitic languages, and German for academic reading (and throw in some French while you're at it if you can!). Right now, I've just completed first-year Hebrew, and I will be taking a class on intermediate classical Greek over the summer while working through an intermediate Hebrew reader on the side; in 2014-2015, I will be taking Hebrew exegesis, Hebrew poetry, Akkadian, and either Syriac to an intermediate level or Ugaritic. In sum: languages, languages, languages!.
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Teluog, this might be your best bet, and it's true what she/he says: most people going into OT have two Master's, at least, and the academics I know who were admitted to PhD programs in OT with only one Master's had a BA in Religion, for which they did well.
(Although, have you considered Gordon-Conwell's MDiv program? That might work out for you too, given your affiliations and your school's affinity with GC. GC might give you some good opportunities, as an alternative to a second BA.)
Having looked around at various faculty at various places, I do in fact see a lot of MDivs. Joseph45 pointed out that an MDiv is also useful for getting a job. I was actually considering pastoral ministry when I first enrolled in bible college, but I realized immediately that I was not ready for preaching or teaching anytime soon, so instead of the 4 year BTh in Pastoral Ministry program I dropped down to the 3 year Arts and Biblical Studies, and of course at the time I had no idea a 4 year bachelor was necessary for doctoral admission. I wonder if it's a good idea to go back and pick up that 4th year?
FYI I'm not planning on applying anywhere anytime soon, I've already decided to take time off of school, partially because I need to figure out what is even a possibility, partially because I just need to work and make money and survive. And partially for a host of personal reasons (eg I don't even know if I'm cut out to preach or teach, I've always had communication issues). So I'm hoping that taking time away from school isn't a I hindrance either, especially if it's for personal growth and to take the time to do personal studying (I have a consortium of theology, biblical studies, psychology, spirituality, and philosophy books).
BTW are graduate schools admission department or program directors helpful on what degrees or types of schools I need to enter their programs? As you've seen, I don't think the profs from my bible college can be very helpful. The reason why my bible college has hardly any profs with doctorates is because those who are working on doctorates come to teach a course as adjunct, then they get their degree and get hired elsewhere.
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Go back and get a second BA. Otherwise you will likely be apologizing for your questionable undergraduate education all your (hopeful) academic life. As I said, the time you will likely spend in school will be about the same, since most of us have 2 to 3 M* before beginning a doctorate anyways (and thus you may be able to get by with only one M*). As someone said above, talking to your professors is generally the best idea. But since it appears they may not be professors at all, you may be better off (sadly) getting advice from random people on the internet.
As in another bachelors before getting to M*? Would it be possible or wise to attempt an MDiv + MA or MTh? Or would my bachelors still be a hindrance even with a couple M*?
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None of them have mentioned any top schools at all. In fact, hardly any of the profs have doctorates, even though the academic nature of the courses was challenging intensive. Am I not alone here in wishing that I would have done my bachelors somewhere else?Seriously, just talk to the professors you know, especially since you have specific theological interests.
I mentioned earlier that I'm committed to an evangelical or ecumenical/non-denominational position, and am hoping to teach at such a place. I would however love to obtain a "broader" education as long as it's not an extreme liberal or conservative pole. I was wondering if Wheaton or TEDS are at least 2nd tier. I'm under the impression that Duke, Chicago, and Drew are ecumenical in nature?There are clearcut top tier programs, but, as the previous conversation witnessed, even those places are frowned upon by people with certain theological positions. And even among those with more liberal theological convictions, some schools are viewed much more favorably than others--people will just think different things about you whether you go to, for example, Chicago, PTS, or Duke for a masters. I don't know what you want people to think of you, or what doctoral programs will be the ones you want to like you.
I'm not having any luck acquiring a half decent job even after graduating with my BRE. This economy I've learned seems to require a gazillion degrees/certificates/licenses/trophies/medals/$$$$$ to find ANY stable employment of any kind anyway. I'm curious though to know what those of us have done who didn't "make the cut" as a scholar/professor.Ask your professors, but, again, please remember that this is a hard path. Getting a masters degree doesn't gurantee entrance to even a mid-level PhD program, no matter where you go. And even more importantly, which many commentators on this site don't really grasp, getting a PhD, even from a toptier program doesn't gurantee you any job at all.
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I can't seem to find any student profiles from any of those schools that show where their PhD students come from.Browse the above departmental websites to get a good idea of where their graduate students studied before beginning the program.
So where do those who obtain master's degrees from TST, Wheaton, and TEDS usually end up going for their PhDs? And I thought MacDiv was top tier or at least 2nd tier, not a "lesser known school."{You will find that the top 'evangelical' schools attended (if any) are Fuller and Gordon-Conwell. Though from what I have seen most of the students at TT programs come from the usual big name div schools: harvard, yale, chicago, and so on. Of course you will see plenty of randoms with M* from lesser known schools. So there is a chance of getting into a TT program if you attend McMaster, but the odds are against you.
Someone already mentioned getting a second bachelors degree. Would it be wise to aim for, for example the MA in Theology at TST or MA in Biblical Exegesis at Wheaton followed by an MTh at a top tier place before attempting a PhD? Are masters degrees at top tier places difficult to get into? MThs especially?The acceptance rate at most TT programs hovers between 5-10%, and I would guess that at least (??) 25% of the applicants are highly qualified (e.g. coursework at TT M* programs, high comp. in languages, great letters, writing samples, and so on). This combined with the likelihood that you will almost certainly need to get a second M* after attending McMaster (in part because most of us do, but more likely because your undergraduate and prospective M* from McMaster are not 'TT') makes your odds further troubling.
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Okay, but what sort of Ph.D programs? There are tons of "Ph.D programs" in biblical studies. If you get a Ph.D in biblical studies from McMaster or The Master's Seminary or another small, very conservative evangelical institution, that's the world in which you will remain. You may be fine with that, but those are not "top tier" Ph.D programs. They're insular and, to be blunt, somewhat incestuous (meaning a lot of the PhD students are former MA students, and even some of the faculty are former MA and PhD students.) That's a huge red flag if you're seeking TT PhD programs.
I'm not aware of McMaster being John McArthur conservative. But I would like to avoid finding myself in either a left wing or right wing bubble. My goal is eventually to teach at some kind of ecumenical or evangelical institute, as long as the institute doesn't live in a vacuum.
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Yes, those are questions I intend to ask any institution offering a master's degree that I'm interested in. That being said, I already asked in a separate thread about top tier PhD programs, but now it needs to be asked: what are top tier or acceptable masters degrees that are accepted at TT PhD programs? I'm looking into the best evangelical or ecumenical schools especially for the masters, since I don't have a denominational tie.Before you sign away the next two years of your life on an MA that likely won't get you into a TT PhD program, you may wish to ask for actual stats on the program's graduates. How many go on to PhD work? Where do they go? Have any of the graduates over the past 2-5 years been accepted for a funded PhD at a TT school?
I thought MacDiv WAS TT? As for TST, I recently noticed their MA in Theology. It's considered an "advanced degree" even though it is designed for those with no previous theology training and requires a bachelors only in general arts. I'm not sure if any of this matters though when applying for a TT PhD.I don't mean to sound negative but doctoral admissions at TT schools are extremely competitive and the degree you currently have (a 3-year Bachelors with a solid B average from a bible college that is not ATS accredited) is not going to get you there. You will need something stronger than an MA from a small Divinity College. Have you considered TST? Because it really is the only TT option in Canada.
And how do they determine what the quality is?To answer your initial question: the length of your degree is not an issue, at least not for MDiv admissions. For more academic masters programs, the length may be an issue but if they are concerned about the length, they will be equally concerned with the relative quality of the degree.
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Their MA as stated on their website is designed to prepare PhD students, and biblical studies is one of the emphasis options: http://www.mcmasterdivinity.ca/programs/master-arts-christian-studies
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The college is accredited with ABHE.
The program was 96 credit hours: http://emmanuelbiblecollege.ca/res/pub/Academic_Catalogue/2014-2015/Academic_Program_Offerings/BRE/BRE_Arts_Biblical_Studies.pdf
Apparently McMaster Divinity accepts a lot of students from my school, though mostly for their MDiv. My bible college and current residence is only 45 minutes away from MacDiv, and they have ties to my bible college, since some staff know know each other and the interim president I had is married to the editor of MacDiv's theology journal, who also teaches Greek. They both also go to my mother's church was is basically right behind my apartment!
I'm considering MacDiv's MA in Christian Studies program, if anyone know anything about that. I might create a separate post on this.
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I have a Bachelors of Religious Education in Arts and Biblical Studies from an evangelical Bible College. It was an enjoyable program and I got to study a broad variety of topics, including Bible, theology, new religions and cults, world missions, communication, and I took all 3 Greek courses that were offered as my electives.
I struggled with 3 or 4 courses early on due to personal and family issues but once that got cleared I was getting at least A- on nearly every exam and assignment. I got 4.0 in all 3 Greek courses. My GPA ended up at 3.5.
My biggest concern is that the program was a 3 year program, not a 4 year. I worry if this will hinder admissions into a good MA program in bible or theology, and eventually a top PhD program. I'm considering focusing on Old Testament studies so I know I will need at least 2 introductory Hebrew courses before applying, but will I need to transfer or pick up an entire full time year of undergrad coursework still? Or just a couple more undergrad courses aside from Hebrew?
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Rankings are always subjective, but data is a little more objective. Auburn Theological Seminary in NY has studied which graduate programs in theology (broadly speaking) have contributed the most faculty to theological schools in North America. The linked document (from 2010) lists the top 20+ programs and notes which offer full funding and which don't, how that impacts admissions, denominational affiliation, etc. Included are the big names anyone would expect: Harvard, Chicago, Yale, Duke, Vanderbildt, Toronto School of Theology, GTU, Claremont, Union Seminary, Boston University. Several evangelical programs are also included. It's a good and useful read. It doesn't attempt to rank the programs but basically states that these are the programs that lead and have led to the most academic teaching positions (in theological schools). http://www.auburnseminary.org/sites/default/files/Report%20on%20a%20Study%20of%20Doctoral%20Programs_0.pdf
Link not found. :-(
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So what is it that makes Harvard Divinity, for example, top tier? Is it simply because Harvard has been a staple school in America for years? Is it merely because it's always been a popular school, or is its faculty truly known as producing the best scholarship and best student satisfaction?
Fair enough. I guess my biggest worry is acquiring an actual teaching job upon graduation, preferably in a generic evangelical institution. But any school that isn't too left wing or too right wing would be fine, regardless of denomination (I realize I might be asking too much already!) Thus I would need a doctoral program that will allow for good networking and make your resume or vitae look really good.Perhaps it would be better, then, if rather than asking for a generic ranking of programs, you told us what you value in a graduate program and what interests you have. Then, we could help point you in the right direction. For instance, do you value prestige, mentoring, or funding or all three or some mix of them or something else? Are you interested in OT, NT, ethics, theology, history, or a non-Christian religion? What approach, methodology, thinker, or school of thought tickles your fancy? Once you've answered some of these questions, you (and we) will be in a better position to rank programs accordingly.
I would also greatly appreciate a program that offers some pedagogical training aside from TAships. I don't just want to teach, I want to be a good teacher.
I am also going to need a school that offers as full funding as possible and/or the cheapest tuition.
As for subject matter, I'm interested in biblical studies and theology as a whole, but more biblical than theology. I'm interested in studying the Bible in a way that I call "inside and outside." Inside being exegesis and hermeneutics (biblical languages, historical background, archaeology, what a passage teaches theologically, etc.); outside being the higher and lower critical issues (form criticism, textual criticism, historical issues, etc.) In sum, I'd love to study everything from the interpretation of Genesis one to JEDP to historical Jesus to Johannine theology. I realize this is a broad outlook but I'm aware that no one really ends up teaching exclusively on their dissertation area of study, and thus interdisciplinary expertise is highly valued.
If I had to narrow it down, so far I'm thinking of majoring in OT and minoring in NT. So far it seems that Chicago Divinity is the best gig. But I need to mention that I have a bachelors in arts and biblical studies and need a good masters before a doctoral program, and I'm aware that one school's masters program doesn't necessarily entail that they have a good doctoral program . . . or does it?
I live about 45 minutes from both McMaster Divinity and Toronto School of Theology, and I hear good things about them. Gupta's blog post lists both as top tier so if anyone has experience with either of those let me know. It'd be ideal to not have to move away.
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As I've been looking into which schools are the best of the best in consideration of graduate programs in Bible/theology, I'm becoming more aware of which schools are worthy of consideration and which ones aren't. Especially thanks to Gupta's chart as seen here: http://cruxsolablog.com/phd-advice/
My question is this: who decides and ranks which schools belong in which tier? What factors are these schools ranked on (quantity of publications produced from their staff? Placement rate?)
My other question is where else besides that blog post can one find a list of divinity schools and seminaries according to rank? Gupta seems to have forgotten about Vanderbilt and Trinity Western/ACTS seminaries in western Canada.
Learning Languages
in Religion
Posted · Edited by Teluog
Since religious studies requires a multitude of language skill, and with time to spare before I can afford graduate school, I'm thinking of tackling another language--either modern or ancient--to prepare myself.
My question is how should one go about studying & learning. I have 3 semesters of biblical Greek from Bible College but no Hebrew yet. If I was to tackle Hebrew, should this be done for credit at a school or is self-study considered legit enough when applying for graduate programs (assuming the school offers competency exams to prove yourself)?
In other words, is it necessary or just better on paper to take language courses for credit? Or can one simply self-study in one's spare time by purchasing books or borrowing from libraries and using any available internet resources and flash card applications? If coursework is necessary, is distance education frowned up?
Is any of this different when it comes to modern languages vs the ancient ones?