pajarero
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Posts posted by pajarero
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Go with Duke! It sounds like you have the best feeling about their program, and your visit confirmed that you would like your fellow students and have accessible, innovative professors. I got into Sanford too, but eventually had to turn it down because I only got a small scholarship. I couldn't go to open house, but based on all the info I could gather, they offer: 1) one of the most rigorous academic curricula of any MPP program, so you will leave extremely prepared for applied policy work or future research, 2) extremely rigorous master's project that requires an initial prospectus defense that's tougher than what most non-thesis grad programs require, and 3) GREAT connections to the mafia of alumni for getting a job. On the other hand, from emailing with current Sanford students, I've gathered that you will not have time for anything outside of required coursework the first year...it's apparently that intense.
I hear that even though Durham can be kind of hit or miss, that it has lots of stuff to do and is cheap. Social life should be pretty good with so many students in the area. Also, while the program is more applied than theoretical (which seems to be a big difference between Sanford vs. Harris), it will still leave you prepared to do a PhD in the future. In the end, the details of the coursework aren't what really make a lasting impression...it's the people you meet, the overall experience you take away, and whether you and the program are a good fit. But it's your decision, so don't let random people on this website like me tell you where to go...it sounds like you already know.
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Sorry zhao, but I made an assumption. Are you admitted to Yale's MEM (master's of environmental management) or MESc (master's of environmental science) program? The MESc is a bit more research-oriented and requires a thesis, whereas the MEM requires a more flexibly-defined master's project.
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Hi zhao, I'll comment because I'm also admitted to the MEM program at Yale's FES for this fall and I'm more than 90% certain I'll go there. The PhD and the MEM serve completely different goals. The PhD will take you directly into the depths of scientific research in your field. If you want to work on energy issues at a very high level and are interested eventually in a post-doc positions, working in a government lab, in industry, running research programs, or becoming a professor, the PhD is absolutely your best option. CMU is a fantastic school for technologically advanced research. I don't know if CMU requires you to already have a main advisor, but that can probably change after a year or two of exploring your interests.
The Yale MEM is not a research-oriented master's. It's meant to give interdisciplinary training in a wide variety of subjects relevant to modern environmental problems (ecology, earth science, social ecology, policy, economics, development, water, etc.). Lots of flexibility is given to focus on one or more of those areas for an internship or short research project. It's great for people who have at least a few years of work experience, want to work in the environmental field, but don't necessarily have the academic exposure to get the job or salary they want. It opens doors to work in environmental consulting, government agencies, conservation NGO's, international agencies (e.g. World Bank) or all kinds of things. I've seen some stats: most people work, and in 2008, only 3.3% of MEM grads continued immediately on to further study.
Of course you'll need to make the best decision based on your goals, but I wish the best in this process. Hope this might be helpful information.
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Help! I've finally narrowed down my grad school choices, but as I am unable to visit any schools before deciding, I'm wondering if anybody has the personal experience or information to comment on the following programs:
- UCSB's Bren School of Environmental Science & Management (MESM program)
- U Maryland's dual-degree program in Public Policy (MPP) and Conservation Biology (MS), a 3-year program
- Yale's School of Forestry & Environmental Studies (MEM)
For reference I am interested in studying coastal marine conservation, and my primary interest is science. I am looking for intensive training in ecology (primarily marine, coastal, estuarine/wetlands and restoration), GIS, quantitative methods/modeling, environmental policy analysis, economic analysis, as well as other aspects of environmental problem-solving: negotiation, ethics, leadership. I could see myself working for the public sector, non-profit conservation, or even consulting after graduating, so I'm looking for a school that prepares people well for real careers.
Based on scholarships I've been offered, Yale would be the cheapest, U Maryland would be second, and UCSB would be the priciest; unfortunately cost is a major consideration for me. I feel the most efficient, professional training for my interests (and only two years) would be UCSB. Yale's program seems more directed to social science people and managers, and their science classes seem to lack lots of field and lab components (less marine offerings too). So I don't know if Yale trains capable environmental scientists in its MEM program. U Maryland looks great, has tons of field- and lab-intensive science courses, but seems less efficiently-organized; also, I don't know how quantitatively intense their MPP program is.
Does anybody have firsthand information or anecdotes about the student and academic life at any of these schools that one can't get from the websites? Any firsthand experience working with graduates of these programs? Is anyone else in a similiar decision situation?
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Can anyone enlighten me about how exactly this asking/negotiating for additional aid process works? Who exactly would I need to talk to? I haven't seen or heard anything from Sanford about how to go about this or a deadline for doing so (as stilesg57 refers to). Or is the possibility of negotiating off the table this year, given the economy? I really hadn't planned on asking about getting more money because I was quite happy with the funding package I originally got from Duke. However, GPPI recently made me a significantly better offer, which really complicates things because (after visiting both schools) I'm more excited about Duke's program but it's hard to walk away from Georgetown's offer...
I was accepted to Sanford's MPP program for this fall. Got a scholarship offer, but not too large. Would've still been left with $30K in loans for the first year. I emailed the financial aid office to try to ask for more, but I was basically told: last year the office had a different staff and explicitly mentioned the renegotiation of aid in the original admissions letters. This year, they are not negotiating aid, but rather making their best offer from the beginning. So in sum, they would not consider giving me more aid. Hope this discouraging bit of information helps. In my case, I have decided not to attend Sanford because of its cost.
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They canceled the bonfire over a mild drizzle of rain. Epic failure if you ask me.
Hmm...that doesn't reflect well on an environmental school if they can't handle a little adverse weather and build a fire.
But I second Wooldogg: any comments of people who attended the Nicholas School visit day would be really interesting for me as well. I will mention that I received an email today from Lauren Stulgis, the Program Coordinator for the Coastal Environmental Management MEM program, directed toward accepted CEM people who couldn't visit. Some of the useful information included was:
- Accepted CEM students can take a course or two during the Summer Session II at the Marine Lab this summer (July 12 - August 13) for no additional cost and count it toward their degree requirements: "Our second summer term (www.nicholas.duke.edu/marinelab/programs/courses/summer20102) features a core lecture class called Conservation Biology and Policy, co-taught by Drs. Mike Orbach (CEM Director) and Larry Crowder, and several complementary electives to choose from including Marine Mammals, Biology and Conservation of Sea Turtles, and Marine Ecology. All of these classes meet core CEM requirements and this is a fabulous opportunity to get a "head start" on meeting requirements and to get to know Marine Lab faculty (CEM advisors are based at the Marine Lab)."
- PDF of all past CEM students' masters project titles
- PDF of all past CEM students' first employment positions ("employment record")
The last two were things I had been specifically asking for to get a better idea of what I could study, and where I could end up, and undoubtedly helps inform my desire to go to Duke. It also looks like 2 people every year get a Knauss fellowship and a couple others get other NOAA fellowships (something I was interested in). The summer session is kind of a bonus, I guess, if you have nothing to do in July and have a burning desire to take classes.
And though I was thinking MEM/MPP originally, I am now seeing the lone MEM as a very viable option, especially since my interests are mostly in science, it would be much cheaper, and only require 1 master's project. Decision time is right around the corner...
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The forestry dean at uni here is an FES alum, and he says the Yale/Duke programs are top in the country. I think you may have missed something: you take one course from each of 7, but then you can specialize in one of those if you so choose, or you can stay unfocused if you so choose. It's all in what you make of it I think.
what do you mean by 'lack of field skills/adaptability'? Curious now.
I'll PM those who requested info on finances...
Yeah, perhaps I'm overreacting, especially considering I have no inside knowledge on Yale FES. I think in picking grad schools it's much like romance...those that don't respond so generously to your affections are the ones that continue to evoke your interest and desire, while those that do respond openly and generously make you more apt to discover flaws, whether real or imagined.
I'll be happy to share what my financial aid award was, but after I've made my admission decision...
Anyway, with respect to this particular Yale MEM alum, I feel it might be a bit classless to criticize him, albeit anonymously, on the internet. But since I already mentioned TNC: this individual was hired as a regional program manager in a relatively poor, developing country where I was working in Peace Corps. I basically saw him as representing the typical top-down conservation development approach in the NGO machine typical of failed approaches and lacking understanding of local conditions. Very good at running workshops on environmental themes, but having basically no relevance or influence on the decision-making of local governments or communities. The ivory tower, but from a third-world development perspective. But hey, he was new to the job...maybe he has already adapted.
But look, I was living in a rural village, seeing local perspectives, relying on rickety public transport, and not having a lot of extra cash, and when you see these conservation NGO guys roll in with their SUV's saying they're going to solve problems, you just can't help but be skeptical. Besides, they monopolize so much of the conservation funding that comes from rich countries, and 80% pays their salaries.
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<br /><br /><br /><br />Thanks for the info! That's good to know. It definitely seems more management oriented than Duke's - I was basically thinking about doing the Enviro Law and Policy stream which would make it closer to a policy degree lol. You probably still know more than me though: what kind of jobs do people usually go into coming out of this? The dean of forestry at my local university is an FES grad so I'm going to talk to him, but I also want to ask around as much as possible <img src='http://forum.thegradcafe.com/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /><br /><br />The 30% number was from last year - from the article posted on page 1 of this thread where it said apps were up 5% from last year too.<br />Commenting on the Yale FES curriculum, is it just me, or does it seem distressingly unfocused? Or at least the website seems to be lacking information. Principally, I feel the lack of a core curriculum that builds on itself and no strict requirements for developing focal areas seem to be real weaknesses. For instance, Yale's MEM degree requires taking 1 course from each of 7 general areas (e.g. Earth/Climate Science, Ecosystems & Biodiversity, Policy/Law, Info/Data Analysis) but I don't see how they ensure that these courses actually complement each other. It seems to me that Yale FES has tons of courses that sound really interesting, but they seem a bit biased toward the social sciences and they don't seem to logically build on each other. In my opinion that would encourage dabbling in lots of areas without truly become skilled in any of them. Maybe I'm wrong...does somebody have an inside view of Yale FES?
I'm sure with the Yale brand name you're guaranteed a job, but how skilled will you be? Yale FES has offered me a great financial package, nearly double what I got from Duke's Nicholas School, but I don't see that Yale would really make me an effective practitioner and scientist. It would probably, however, help me have lots of interesting ideas on a variety of environmental topics. Is that worth two years of grad school, even if it's cheap? Granted, I've only met one alum of Yale FES's MEM degree. But he fulfilled my perception of the theoretical, bubble-bound environmental manager at a big NGO (The Nature Conservancy) who despite all his ideas and supposed training, doesn't seem to have field skills nor the adaptability to respond to realities on the ground. But like I said, just one guy I know, not a statistical sample.
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I've been struggling to figure out this exact question for the last year as well, and have tried to find programs that: (1) satisfy my interests in strong environmental science and research skills (with strengths in certain ecosystems and regions), (2) provide the interdisciplinary management and quantitative skills needed to work in any sector, and (3) have a strong enough reputation so that I will be able to successfully enter the job market.
In other words, the lone MEM degrees (e.g. Duke, Yale, UC Santa Barbara) satisfy my main scientific interests, but they seem to be a bigger question mark to me in terms of how employers will perceive their usefulness (I may be wrong about this since I still don't have many professional contacts in the field). There are no MEM program rankings that I've been able to find, and only a handful of schools (UMich and Indiana in addition to the 3 mentioned) that seem to really push the environmental management concept. On the other hand, MPP's do have national rankings, and a lot more data is out there on graduate success in employment.
So I decided to also apply to dual-degree programs (MEM/MPP) where the MPP existed as a strong option. UMich, Indiana (actually Masters of Public Affairs), and Duke are all particularly strong in this, and U Maryland has a similar dual-degree (MPP with MS in Conservation Biology). MPP's from these prestigious schools seem to have very strong success in the job markets (don't know much about UMD), and you can do these programs in 3 years maximum.
In summary, I'll only go to a school that is very strong in the environmental sciences; that's my main interest. But I want the bonus of the MPP for greater chance of career success.
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I'm accepted in MPP public policy and MS conservation biology. No final decision yet, but UMD looks favorable for me, largely because its price is much lower than other schools I applied to.
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Phillympp,
I was curious at to whether you have heard anything more about the UMD MPP program. I am also interested in the ISEP concentration, but I am having some difficulty finding more information about UMD. Like you, I was also awarded a generous financial aid package to Maryland.
Does anyone have more information about how Maryland would rank compared to Duke or Hopkins for the MPP?
And can anyone attest to the quality of the program?
I would appreciate any information that anyone has.
I am in the same boat as the two of you, though I am accepted to their public policy and conservation biology programs. UMD looks good because of their overall cost, and I believe their ranking is solid. Their prime location certainly allows you to take advantage of networking, internship, and career opportunities even if their name doesn't carry the "punch" of Harvard, Duke, or Michigan (but who knows? it would be good to get information from professionals in your desired field who can evaluate graduates from these different public policy programs). I wish to major in environmental policy, and though they are ranked about 12th in this area in US News (lower than Indiana, Duke, and Michigan, also programs I was accepted into), I don't believe I have any qualms in attending UMD. Any grad school is, after all, what you put into it; at least I know I'll also have the peace of mind of less debt once I finish!
To the person who is visiting the UMD open house: please post your impressions of the program after your visit! I am wondering whether their curriculum requires an intensive master's project of some sort that would look solid on a resume. It seems they have a policy workshop course, but is it as intense as a project, and does it require a public presentation, research, group work, etc?
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I'm glad to see this topic! Stilesg57: I am in sort of a similar situation as you were, though reversed. I've been accepted to both Sanford and Nicholas schools to do the dual MPP/MEM (the latter in Coastal Environmental Management). However, my primary interest is science and going to the Nick school's CEM program. I'm trying to decide if the MPP degree is going to be worth it, or if it would constrain my Nick school electives significantly. I can see myself just joining the Nick school and being happy with that, but I'm wondering if the addition of the MPP would greatly open up opportunities, and would be worth an extra year of debt (and the extra workload of a master's project, course coordination, etc.). Also I perceive other difficulties since CEM students often spend their second year at the marine lab campus.
Do you know any MPP/MEM(CEM) students yourself, and if so, have they expressed any opinions about their decision to do the program? Do they feel it was the right choice? Do they feel any constraints on designing their program and course selection?
Of course I'm posing this question directly to the graduate office too, but any insights you have would be appreciated!
SPEA vs Ford vs Evans
in Government Affairs Forum
Posted
First of all, don't worry excessively about the rankings. It's more important how the school you go to will connect you to your future goals (whether through training, internships, connections), whether you have a good experience there, and how it is viewed by people in your desired field. That being said, do re-check the rankings of public affairs/policy schools on U.S. News: SPEA is ranked higher than the Ford School in both Public Affairs and Environmental Policy (SPEA is #2 and #1 respectively). I searched for lots of info too, and it sounds like SPEA grads are extremely well-connected to the employer market, especially in environmental issues.
One reason I can think of to go to UMichigan however, is that their scientific research is better known and more prestigious. If there are certain labs or professors you want to work with there, UMich might be a good idea. But IU is no slouch, and the MPA/MSES dual program allows you to get two degrees without dealing with two different bureaucracies. One thing I LOVED about SPEA when I visited last year was the fact that professors of all different disciplines were down the hall from each other. And like you mentioned, they have great student services! I also grew up in Bloomington, so I can personally attest that it is a GREAT place to live, and inexpensive.
Good luck with your decision!