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While reading through this again, w/r/t my commentary about the schools in NYC, w I amped up the programs that get a lot of heat, and also glorified the appeal of what I found attractive about them, so do know that my opinions are more or less built on hearsay via forum and what I think works for me. I spoke with people in program and out of before applications, and based my questions of the schools around my needs and wants. Which may or may not apply to you, so I'd encourage you to fact check this perception or even go from scratch. Definitely take the time now to reach out to current students, make a list of questions you think will help you shift through the BS and or bring to light red flags. If you haven't already, mb try to mentally prioritize what you seek out of an education given all the verifiable differences of the schools you've gotten into. If you have the ability, try and visit classes. This is not to say you haven't already done this but, edit edit edit. You don't have to make any decisions right now. You're in a great position, and congrats! It's inspiring and keeps me hopeful. The point about MA v. MFA I think is important to consider as a very possible reality, there is definitely a lot of courtship from the schools to you right now, so take those institutional dynamics and care into your considerations.

@outflare I'm also an incredibly independent student, that's the draw of Columbia for me - the ability to have as many resources available but no pretenses or expectations of needing to utilize them. While it seems odd I'd potentially pay/ incur (debt) so much to have the ability to disappear, I think it fits my personality and needs. I don't know how well I'd do in a setting more intimate and emotionally/socially intensive. Not that I am not invested in people or that aspect of programs, but I think if I am going to pay for anything then it would be ideal to feel intellectually and creatively stimulated. I'm only modeling what does that for me from my experience in undergrad though, so we'll see what shakes out - and if the perceptions are even correct. All of this could change. The course selection at Columbia is pretty rockin' too- Last year's course descriptions and instructors were so varied and unique, I found. Basically, they provide the type of academic rearing you wouldn't get from a standard English program. The workshops and seminars are really designed to enliven "the" creative writer, you can tell there's quite a bit of thought poured into that aspect of the program. I have not heard anything from anyone - pretty much radio silence, and it's starting to concern me that something was wonky with my apps and I didn't know it or some Fasfa thing is doing something weird or I'm mean....it's also equally/potentially possible that I terminally suck, but if I do, then I'd like to know soon. Anyway, I don't know what's going. I am thinking about getting in touch with admissions now. I feel like either it's not going to be a good look for me at all this year, or there's something odd going on, or it's wait-list city. I feel like at this point, most people have heard something from at least one school. But none of the schools is EEEKKK. I know people received rejections from Hunter & Rutgers (I think), yet I didn't hear from them either so I am pretty confused all around. At this point, I'd be happy to know just about anything, though the more I will for these decisions, the less likely it feels I'll get any before May. But this is what I know from other's past experiences; Decisions could take up until mid to late April for any of the above schools. I'd try not to think about the politicking that's going on, or the bureaucratic heuristics that need to be met in order to push along the roll out. I imagine there is a ton of unnecessary stalling. But do Know that you'll be contacted at some point. The good news is you have an acceptance, and it seems you like the program a whole hell of a lot. @Three21, rutger is great, it's only newly fully funded? I think? They require GRE and do look at applicants to support themselves via teaching in addition to the coursework of the program. I was given the impression that in addition to having a solid sample, it'd be ideal if you expressed interest in teaching. I could be misconstruing that message, but it was the first school of the many I researched that were particularly clear about the teaching track and what was expected of a prospective student.

@Three21 not it wasn't on my list as its not as proximal as I'd need, but one of my mentors attended. She only had nice things to say though nothing too specific.

@Three21I applied to NY schools (mostly), I have a family situation that limits my ability to look elsewhere. Though, I would probably not do well in a small town/college town at this point in my life, so the trade of what I find valuable in non NY program is easily offset by the energy and environment of the city. I have heard many o' things, all consistently inconsistent. Every new comment is either polarizing or flips the coin over from what I last heard about each of the schools, with the exception of Queens (because I haven't a certain impression of its personality yet). As far as these schools being sensitive to certain groups, idk, the people I've spoken with haven't offered up much on these issue, maybe for a reason or not, idk? My general impressions are this: Columbia - academically rigorous, may lack the intimacy those who want or need a lot of attention, less thought put into overall cohort dynamics, but at lot of activities and extracirc programs available for students to indulge. Seems to fit well for a pretty independent student. NYU - I didn't apply, It's a great program but I could never see myself there, which is a totally silly thing to say, something in my gut is just like "nah." So I don't have much information regarding NYU besides it's well known reputation in mfadum. Hunter - a lot of the work with mentors, you get to know your peers incredibly well, many opportunities to network and learn skills that would be really helpful for publishing and post grad life, they see you more like muses and prodigees than they do students in ways. That's what I've been told, have no clue how true that is. New School - more artistically aligned, but definitely a mixed bag as far as faculty and selection. I've heard a lot of different things overall, but It is my impression those who do well and enjoy it are those who are bold and incredibly energized to be creative as much as possible. The lulls of the program appear in/at foundational coursework, but people have seemed to stand out when given the latitude. Brooklyn - the most well-rounded program creatively. They're completely invested in facilitating their student's growth and developing talent. Thoughtful, challenging, and prioritize recognizing, including writing cultures and trends that are stripped apart or painted over by other MFA programs. Rutgers - the most well-rounded program academically and in form, also most cost effective for the entire population. Haven't heard a single negative thing yet. I think there's another program that's an extension of a college but is in brooklyn? :S I feel like I've just described the different personalities of My Little Ponies but, that's my approximate and lazy impression of all the programs, except for Queens, which I am most interested in via the research. However, I haven't happened upon any specific personal information that would inform the feeling of the program.

@aridari fahck, that really sucks. I hope it resolved productively? It doesn't sound it though. My thoughts and feelings go out to the guy who had those comments directed at him. I hope there was an overwhelming defense for him, and if there wasn't oof.... I feel for him, because as stupid and incorrect as those comments are, they can cut deep in any setting, and you're right It's never, ever OK. Ageism is also tough, I don't even want to imagine how that conversation read. jesus. Those types of comments always make me squirm. They're so obviously attached to/steeped in this outdated imperative that one who is good and/or proper must also exhibit/ follow certain uses of language. Like some seriously historical white, aristocratic, colonialist, racist, classist crap that still somehow gets passed off as literary standard in some circles.

@aridari I didn't see what happened on Dr aft. But Oof, oof... On another note, seems like there are a lot of NYC school applicants here: Did any apply to Queens? Does anyone have any specific impressions?

@romola which is to say, if you would like to pursue a teaching opportunity at some point, don't limit yourself unnecessarily. I'm not saying go for it and drop the editing gig, but no one will penalize you for positing and researching the ways you could make it work, if you felt passionate about/ interested in it. I say this because this experience isn't as easy to seek out in the circles not within academia. But these opportunities can be loaded too. Some grads feel disconnected because they are consumed with teaching, some rely on it in order to afford the program and just resent the entire process, while others simply love and enjoy the act of teaching. So definitely be your own advocate for your own interests (financial, creative, personal)and the type of experiences you feel you need to be successful in the program and after w/ or without the time and energy committed to this prospect. Again, if that means putting up a small cost or loan to be able to explore that option over two or three years, it's not impossible that it wouldn't be worth it. It could be the case you wind up having the teaching experience under your belt and on your resume, and it opens up a lot of doors for you or gives you something you really need for your life after school. Sometimes this experience gets writers into more stable financial positions so they can write. But it is equally possible, and maybe even more probable (based off of what I've heard) that this experience could become a crutch and detract from growth during and post grad. I'd definitely encourage you to see how those in your program approach it, what the commitment looks like, and its financial ROI / risks (i guess) as to sum the benefits and practices of the opportunity. If you find that it would provide you with knowledge and skills that are valuable, worthwhile, or even desirable, then yeah maybe consider altering your financial situation (with in reason to your own needs, goals & health) to explore it.

@romola Yes. I think many individuals in your position would look at how their time is spent (instead of their dollars) and whether or not their energy and emotional resources are being applied correctly to maximize their writing goals, growth etc. Which you know, as technical "artists" - I think we can break ourselves from this strict image of needing to be like a Super Adult/ Super artist who gets the best deal for their passion. We shouldn't lust after seeming smart about our finances because it's tied to some naive idea about what being a writer really means. We should seem smart because we are smart and put in the personal work of what is financially responsible for each of us. For some people, I know going to a program at some point is really important, and some have turned away a program for fear of the financial future and feeling like they'll have to "sell - out." To me, it's not worth future tripping about hypothetical scenarios either, especially when you could be spending the time applying yourself practically and thinking about probable future scenarios. It's just good practice to make sure you are aware of the choices you are making and you feel connected to them. If someone wanted to take on 100k in debt and felt so compelled because they might feel irreparable over the regret for not, then like hell ya why not? It's not the most sound decision in a vacuum of course, but I'd rather see someone feeling like they did the best they could with what they got and knew about themselves, rather than following some ubiquitous unattainable ideal financial situation that other's have expressed they wished they had without any real reasons or understanding to back it. I try not to limit myself if I can, I try to find creative solutions to expand what my circumstance permits me, and I'm not sure the financial standards/ expectations out there are communicating that. In MFA application and post graduate culture, there are certain ideals for what is desirable financially in program that primarily surfaced from people having no clue what being in debt felt like or what being a career writer felt like or being in debt while being a career writer. These negative sentiments, very rightfully and yet unsurprisingly, cropped up from having to put a dollar sign or value judgment on their graduate experience and the real world implications of their experience. A lot of the arts have been this way too. It's not a super unique experience to writers. Applicants struggle to actualize the genetic currency of their prospective educations. We don't like to think about the market prices for X school's resources. But, those financial attachments and judgments matter and are unavoidable, especially because they form our impression of how worth the experience was overall. It can be jarring when students naturally confront experiencing their education through an economic view finder. Cause lets face it, you may not pay anything, but if you don't get any time to really do anything, then you're probably going to feel you didn't get a good deal. You'll encounter that feeling regardless of you having done your best to exorcize that capitalist demon out of your lost Marxian soul. Or conversely, if you are paying a lot of money, but you don't get valuable or meaningful instruction/instructors, you'll feel cheated. In other words, a lot of people do not and will not be able to expect and anticipate the financial and lifestyle realities of said debt, their education, and post grad life and these hard learned epiphanies end up bumming a lot of people's shit. Like we all want the freedom of a car, but then there's the gas and insurance and the tires and the tune up etc. etc. We want and romanticize grad school to be this precious thing, but it is also a financial responsibility too and just acknowledging that in any capacity that's authentic to you is a good start. I mean, I don't think most students actually know the amount of money they need to live in order to feel comfortable -not how much money they generally need to get by, because there is a huge difference. It's no wonder a lot of people spend a lot of time working really awful jobs, some actually do because their lifestyle and financial standards require them to be more comfortable, and that is valuable to them. Other people are miserable and would rather spend their time not making money, just to feel comfortable. Some of us don't have options or preferences because other depend on us. Some people might need loans in order to work in order to support their kid during program if they don't get tuition remissions, some people might not take loans to work for tuition so they don't have to go into debt because they have kids. I mean, no two people are a like and no two programs or offers are alike either. Like, if you can live three months with a budge of less than 1,500 or whatever the realistic cost of being responsible and spending your time wisely in program, then you don't have to think to much about the whole ordeal and can adjust accordingly. But if that situation is not copacetic then....you know...hey maybe this isn't the right path for you yet or you need to take out a small loan 7 or 5K so you aren't miserable, can eat and have the emotional space to enjoy your program.You know, it's important that you feel like a person, your own person, which I think people forget or unnecessarily force themselves to overlook.

@romola I can't speak from direct experience, but I can give you my perspective. I went to a commuter state school before state schools became expensive. I was lucky enough to come out debt free* having worked during undergrad to pay for tuition/ living expenses. At times it really sucked, but it wasn't actually the worst thing in the world or unmanageable, it was perfectly livable. Regardless, working to reduce my debt in school didn't hinder me in the way many imagine working during school would. I think a grad program would be different given some structural considerations of the institution, where you are in life, and your writing goals. Since undergrad, I've been working for the past 6 years saving for eventual grad school &/or not working to focus on my writing. I am willing to pay for school if I feel it's the place for me. It was not easy to save nor was it easy creating the circumstance where saving worked out for me, but I am blessed to have the finances to expand my options. I do have many writer friends who are in and out of school at the moment. Some have taken on some debt and no debt while some went into grad programs with some to no debt. They all have varying opinions. I do notice many have hada hard time conceiving of the type of lifestyle they will be living after grad school, thus making some of them feel unprepared to assume the debt regardless of the amount. The way I see it is that there are very different practical implications for being in 12K in debt versus 90K in debt. One is theoretically livable on a meager income assuming you don't have many other bills, and the other would require you to have stability and a job that guarantees that financial debt to decrease over a long period time- thus 90k in debt would have a much greater impact on your lifestyle after school for much longer. So, really you have to try and ask yourself what type of work and freedom you'd want in and after grad school. If you know that you are going to advance your writing after grad school in a isolate manner by creating more time and space for yourself you won't likely be making a lot of money. So in this instance, it would be a goal to minimize the debt to none. However, I don't think taking on, what could only be say..., 12k in debt for the first year of a program is as hellish as people make it out to be. The "fully funded only" rhetoric perpetuates fiscal irresponsibility/ignorance in my opinion, and limits the education/realities of it's intended audience, kind of like preaching abstinence as an effective form of preventing pregnancy and STDS. There's only so many spots that are fully funded, but there are a lot of smart ways to minimize debt in a responsible manner that can actually maximize the graduate and post graduate experience. But, if it's important to you to come out debt free, then don't feel pressured to temper that feeling. Say you are in position where you're looking at a debt much larger than 12k or even 20k. It would be equally reasonable and healthy to evaluate and question whether or not the program gives you easy access to work /instruction opportunities, scholarships, flexible class times, and ultimately the experience you want. If these things don't add up, or you don't feel confident about it. Its totally okay and may be better to put it off another year, save more money (if you can) and shoot for a program you are equally excited about with better financial prospects (that could be only taking on 6k overall in debt versus the previous year's 90k). In the event you think the school is worth it, and you are willing to pay for the total cost, I would advise you have an honest conversation with yourself about how you can maximize your experience in school towards the future you want, with a financial landscape in mind. In this scenario, I would hope that you make the absolute best of your time in school while holding yourself accountable to the serious nature of the resources you are investing. Either way you can swing it. People have done it before in undergrad and in grad school. It's pretty unfair that we have to pay for school, but I think there's this assumption that being in school is the hard reality, when it's actually life after school that's a pain in the ass. So think about the reality of your future and what you can manage mentally and fiscally. There are school debt calculators that could help you visualize your future payments and how manageable / unmanageable they'd be. Other considerations you might want to think about on a personal scale future: - Do you plan on getting married or having kids - Do you want to buy a house - Will you have to pay for your own health care - Do you already have debt All of these considerations should only help to guide you towards an opportunity that you feel comfortable and happy taking.

@Three21 @auroras @aridari Full disclosure, I'm 25 and this is the first time I've ever been on a blog platform like this that's not Reddit. I am/was v. impressed with the update notification gradcafe _nice-work_. Yes, those are excellent, sobering points and absolutely true. In response, I want to make sure it's clear my interpretation of Draft is solely my own and emotionally based. It just didn't work for me in terms of my growth, but that doesn't mean it didn't provide me an opportunity to connect and learn from others nor does it mean the group doesn't benefit others. I personally learned more from reading over current students cross genre work in programs I applied to and how next year that may affect my application and sample. Yet, I think its imperative to point out and speak about the lack of awareness and/or tolerated bad behavior that can be harmful in Draft. I didn't call to it specifically in my first post, so I apologize for the post reading as dismissive or even hateful as it totally sounds of cynicism wrapped in resentment baked in belittlement. However with that being said, writer friends of mine (in far less privileged positions than most) and I had similar reactions, which I didn't articulate as clearly in my original post, so I don't think the criticism should be taken with a grain of salt either. I want to emphasize that it's certainly not all of the people in the group (which most absolutely do their best to maintain some civility, professionalism and encouragement). My critique is ultimately that of the dynamic and mechanics of a space that benefits directly from showmanship and promotes dialogues which prop up certain improper or misunderstood standards of what is and isn't seen as good or desired upon submission. I.e. One of my writer friends who is disabled unjoined the group last year because he was so deeply offended by the group's handling/wash over of criticism on MFA programs, funding and the institution with regards to it's protections on marginalized groups. He ended up withdrawing his applications that year entirely and seriously questioned whether or not MFA culture is the place for him. In my mind, this goes beyond pride or hurt feelings or seeing other people being performative on Facebook or shrugging it off as social media. That's deeply upsetting to me and should be to other writers too, because while it's not in my interest to limit how and in which way writers interact, it is my intent to call out the allowance of certain behaviors in a community that may be ultimately demeaning, superficial, or reinforce and remind other less advantaged writers of the great institutional barriers they have to overcome. To me, the mode of Draft does set an important standard, tone and personality for the perceived culture of writing now, and especially for writers who are interacting with their prospective peers at such a vulnerable time. But truly, my larger point was this: For my friend, me and others, the perception of Draft was that many of the vocal individuals in the group were also the individuals getting accepted. Said vocal individuals, being as the were, made it known to everyone else that they have the time, space, undergrad pedigree, resources and published work to back the acceptance. Given my friend's history, he is not a writer who had the opportunity to workshop or work with great faculty at a great undergrad leaving him feeling severely disadvantaged and discouraged. In his attempts to connect independently or gain insight with the group in a way that could speak to his circumstance, he was met with pleasantries and gestures that more or less indicated to him that his experience and talent didn't/couldn't amount to the "pinned post" standard. I, on the other hand walked away feeling a bit annoyed and confused because of a few celebritized facebook extroverts, and found other resources to be more helpful. So yes, it's totally unfair to critique the behavior of the whole group when it's really only done by a select few in each case of myself and my friend. But, I am only eager to advocate for more constructive uses of the space because it is representative of the upcoming generations of people and perceptions aligned with the MFA program, and it does have a big impact on aspiring writers, like my friend. It's absolutely true that for every erk worthy post there are at least 100 lovely, talented people happy to support and help to the best of their ability. So I beg the question of how that ideal of support and understanding is ultimately represented by the curation/structure of the group and what's actually discussed/ prioritized on a meaningful level among its members, and how that ultimately translates into programs. Auroras: It's encouraging to know the committees in your experience are much different, and I am glad you found a program that you love. Thank you for your insight. Do you have any advise on revision processes that may be accessible to individuals who lack time, social network, or resources to try and emulate this experience?

To be honest, I thought Draft would be a good resource for me when I first heard about it, however I found myself pretty turned off by it only one week after joining .It was not healthy for me. I am definitely still soured and confused by it. (Though let me be clear: my waiting on school decisions likely has a lot to do with how I'm coloring this group and how much of a jerk I am when it comes to the idea of having to interact with other people in a cliche multimedia space to feel 'apart' of an artistic or expressive community.) At first I was excited and interested in many group members, their writing, their processes, their histories, but I soon realized there wasn't a lot of space for that... Instead, there was a lot of space for the following topics: - Agonizing over impending decisions, something, something pizza - Announcements about acceptances and rejections. - Vacant replies to posts about acceptances and rejections. - A lot of shit talking on non-funded programs, - But then a seriously large number of people discussing applying to upwards of 12+ schools, which most aren't fully funded ? Here's some other topics occasionally discussed (ranked from most discussed to least discussed): 1. What people included in their statement of purpose, what their sample looked like, other materials about applying (so, basically a conglomeration of people asking one another about their submissions in an attempt to seek out validation for doing "the assignment right.") 2. Some weird surfacey dialogues around POC and marginalized groups feeling safe in program.I actually think this is really important and should be discussed proactively in a group like this, but I found that the advice coming from those in the group (collectively) was often rehearsed and basically impractical. So a lot of theses conversations started to sound like "oh hey, we (other writers and purveyors of progressive program politics) acknowledge your very important question (about how to tell if a program is racist or bigoted in some other maligned sense) but have no solutions for you ( ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )." I couldn't honestly tell you why there is such little to offer during these discussions, but it's a total failing on the curators of the group given how important these topics are. The silver lining here is that there are, and god bless them, a few people in the group who have been advocates for these issues and offer to others to DM them for questions, guidance, solidarity. ...alrighty moving on down the list... 3. What to do about semi funded programs 4. How to afford the applications 5. How many schools people applied to 6. discussions about being poor and broke from applications but also being able to afford AWP 7. And, very infrequently, actual stuff about writing. All in all, I didn't really understand the specific purpose of Draft as a group member, unless one goes into it specifically wanting to reach out to past or current students at said schools one's applied to or have been accepted to. The person who curates Draft group also runs the blog the MFA years. After discovering that as well as seeing how said curator posts MFA Years Articles in the group as a form of branded institutional guidance, the whole thing began to seem weirdly like a clever, cyclical marketing experiment. IDK, maybe that's excessive but......the whole vibe I got from draft was just not good. I guess I was just unprepared to watch a bunch of applicants circling around each other, all in hopes of soon announcing some good news, or at the very least, observing others in order to benchmark the competition, and maybe even get information on how to be more like accepted drafters, to eventually conform, disconnect, commiserate, instruct, obsess, posture, resent, applaud..... So yeah, Draft is many things, but it is mostly not a creative place that really talks about writing not all that much. I do, however, believe that most of the group members in draft are talented, great people. Oh shoot so hey lol, since its germane and I'm curious.... Did anyone else notice this in draft? This year I felt the same 8 people got into everywhere, and frankly, the spread of that selection frightened me. Had some else thought this too? Maybe this explains my perception of group members on the whole, but the fact that I kept seeing the same individuals getting in, literally, everywhere, I started to think like, huh? It seemed to me there were definitely boxes that could be checked for those getting accepted into fiction programs (I wouldn't say the same for poetry necessarily.) Which is not to say, I think these writers didn't deserve to be in programs. I believe many of them absolutely do, but it was just odd that there wasn't more diversity in the selection process thus far from my observations, and that made me question whether or not MFA juries are actually looking for a certain type of writer/writing doing a certain type of thing and/or a writer that can appear a certain way. Thus, draft being a model for what that looks like? Thoughts? I'm waiting to hear back from all the schools i applied to (all NY schools), so I feel ya, pretty much willing to know anything at this point. Good luck to you all, I hope you hear back soon.