lns25

Oops, it wasn't in this thread that I had posted the thing about Fukuyama's response, but here it is: I'm in a similar dilemma myself and emailed Prof. Fukuyama about his departure to ask whether he thought I should go to SAIS or IPS (vs. Fletcher, SIPA, HKS, Wagner, etc.) given that I've been working in i-dev, will continue after grad school, and had really been hoping to work with him specifically. He told me to go to SAIS. He's only going to teach one course at Stanford and maybe not specifically for IPS students. He didn't answer my questions about whether he would be serving as a faculty advisor or hiring research assistants. Here's the gist: " It's hard for me to tell you too much about the Stanford IPS program since I've never worked directly with it. I will probably only teach one course a year when I get out to Palo Alto, and it may not be in that program. I do know that it is much smaller and less well established than SAIS. One huge advantage that SAIS has is its location--much of the development world is physically located in Washington, which gives you a tremendous leg up in networking, internships, and seminars. So overall I'd say SAIS would be a better choice." --note: this had nothing to do with the multilaterals question, it was more a response to my particular career goals and to say what his involvement would be at Stanford, at least tentatively

Sorry, it was absolutely not my intent to misrepresent IPS, I apologize. I was sharing what I learned from talking to an IPS student a few weeks ago. It's true that IPS has more quantitative prerequisite classes and that the program's courses start at a more advanced level, but the person I talked to said they were not as good as she was hoping, though perhaps that's only her opinion and other students are more satisfied. About the multilateral orgs statement, I should have said "maybe not the place," and explained that an IPS student told me that and what her evidence was. She said that the professors in general, including one specifically who had worked in a high level position in the UN, had been surprisingly unhelpful about getting students (or presumably at least her) job contacts in multilateral organizations. She emphasized this issue to the extent that I felt like, if I wanted to work in a multilateral agency myself, it might be trickier coming out of IPS than a bigger program. As it turns out, that's not really what I want to do and I'm much more interested in social entrepreneurship, which Stanford is probably a much better place for, possibly the best in the world, (anyone considering this should definitely check out http://extreme.stanford.edu/) but I can't go there due to some personal constraints. I agree that the IPS curriculum as a whole is well tailored for transnational issues and multilateral work, but the other schools have functional concentrations that could give you a similar experience. Perhaps the evidence I was given was too anecdotal and job contacts in multilateral orgs really aren't hard to track down for other IPS students. I know that Sarah Tung, who is responsible for a lot of the career advising and job placement for IPS students, is very well liked, but there are also no employment stats on the website, so it's hard to gauge whether what this student told me is likely to be true for other people or not. Do you know IPS students from the last couple of years who have landed in multilateral orgs? I don't think anyone would argue that IPS isn't a very strong program and it sounds like the size allows for a pretty awesome experience in terms of face time with professors, advising, access to resources, etc. I'm assuming you know far better than I do about fellowships for the second year. If you say "most" of those students get fellowships, and those fellowships cover 25-50% of second year tuition, then it could make a considerable difference. If you know some of the numbers, it would be very helpful. Information on the IPS website about fellowships is, as with most of the schools, not all that detailed, so it's better to hear this from a current student. As for Fukuyama, I think I posted somewhere above in this thread that I had emailed him about his joining Stanford's Freeman Spogli Institute, to ask whether he thought I should go to IPS if it meant I could have a chance to work with him, or go to SAIS, and he suggested the latter. I pasted most of his email into the thread. I'm not entirely surprised that he said that; he built much of the IDEV program and is likely to be pleased with his results, whereas he said he didn't know IPS well. He's also working on a book, which I assume will be taking most of his time and explains why he would only be teaching one class per year (at least for now) while he's at Stanford. I imagine he'll do some great lectures beyond that, though. I'm sure any contact with him for IPS students would be very valuable, and it's certainly a loss for SAIS, but my impression from his email was that his involvement would not be as extensive as I would have hoped.

Two corrections - one, that person I mentioned from SIS, along with at least one current student who has very thoughtfully written about SIS on this forum, worked FULL time, not part-time. This only makes your full ride + work experience + financial flexibility combo even more appealing. Two, I have no idea how old you are, I just guessed the same range that I am in, probably because I was trying to imagine very carefully what I would do in this particular situation

As with about 90% of the questions asked in this forum, it depends what you want to do. And how strained you are financially. If you're looking to work for a three letter agency and/or USAID, it's really important to note that GWU's career placement is probably one of its biggest strengths. I've seen (in the inbox of someone whose inbox I see really frequently) a flow of emails about career events that is seriously impressive in its frequency. Far more than I'd expect from any given school, and I think if you took advantage of that, you'd certainly be in a great spot. Elliott is highly respected in Washington, Foggy Bottom is a vibrant and practical location (and Elliott has a lovely new building), so if DC is where you want to be, you're good. That doesn't mean you can't ever leave DC later, of course; let's be honest, the first one or two jobs you have coming out of grad school will easily be as important (if not more) than what school you go to. (For development.) You get a good development job coming out of Elliott (or anywhere) and stick with it (make yourself essential, climb the ladder a rung or two) for a few years and you shouldn't have trouble transitioning elsewhere in the world. So if you're willing to stick around for a few years, I can't imagine you'd go wrong at Elliott. It may not be as rigorous a program as SAIS, but it's gonna be what you make it--just focus on the practical skills you can gain while you're there and by all means go to some of their almost-weekly career stuff. I see that you've got a full ride at SIS, though (congrats!!), and I can imagine one pretty awesome scenario there, which could easily beat out going into debt for the more highly ranked programs. This isn't an imaginary scenario either; I know it's possible.... The only person I know who went to SIS, (who is really, really awesome, both as a person and a development practitioner) kept a part-time job all the way through her two years there. She said she could do that because it was fairly easy, and she thus benefitted not only financially, but professionally, and certainly enough to justify having gone there. She's maybe five years out now, working in the upper levels of a major nonprofit development organization, teaching at one of the top development masters programs, and lecturing regularly at a bunch of the others in NYC and DC. So, if you're a go-getter, you could make American work really well for you, just make sure you focus on accumulating practical skills and getting work experience for as much of those two years as possible. I would focus on researching the SIS job/internship placement procedures if I were you. Maybe try tracking down a current student and an alumnus/a and to how helpful it is. With a full-ride and part-time work, you could actually make money as a grad student, keep rolling with your career as a professional at the same time, and come out of it with a degree, a bit of cash, and a stronger CV than you had before with what may be (comparably) quite a bit less effort and definitely less financial strain. If your gut says go to SAIS, I would ask myself if the following are true: 1. If you're a less assertive person and have trouble forcing yourself to make stuff happen (ie going to American and potentially fighting a bit to get yourself a part-time job doing something related to idev) 2. If you don't have a strong CV yet for your age and feel like you really need a graduate school's NAME to open doors for you (more so than having accumulated a degree on top of whatever professional experience you have) 3. You don't have much in the way of networking under your belt and tend to be less effective at it than you'd like 4. You have little or no debt to worry about from undergrad and went to a school that, at least for people in academia, is relatively well respected 5. You're super ambitious, an over-achiever, and enjoy a significant intellectual challenge before breakfast everyday If some or all of those things are true, sure, go to SAIS. Grad school's expensive, we're gonna get it paid off, no worries. If you feel like these things don't apply to you all that much and you could make the free ride at SIS + job count in the way I suggested, I think you'd be in great shape. Think about it--you could be SO flexible after graduating. One of the most important things you can have on your CV for international development jobs is field experience. Maybe you don't have any yet and really want it so you can get a job as a project officer or a program analyst for something really cool when you get your degree. You graduate with a little money in your wallet and your DC part-time job experience, perhaps with a development NGO (which would be more likely to hire you if you're going to stick with it for your two years as a student), and you say to yourself "I need field experience to be able to get the job I want the very most." You can buy yourself a plain ticket to Thailand and work with children growing up in brothels or interning with an NGO fighting sex trafficking, help out in a Peruvian healthcare clinic treating people for multi-drug resistant TB, teach kids at a school for migrant workers in China, work with an organization promoting ecotourism in Madagascar, build better irrigation systems in Kyrgyzstan...anything. The point is, it gives you the freedom and flexibility to gain the world experiences that are so often sought after in hiring young people for international development jobs. Most field work is poorly (or not) paid, so it's really hard to get it unless you can support yourself for a little while. Fortunately, the places where you need to get that experience are usually inexpensive. So financial flexibility is (albeit unfairly) one of the main ways to make yourself stand out as a future job candidate in development. If you've already got field experience, maybe you'd rather keep that money in savings, move straight into full-time work in DC upon graduating, and climb on up the ladder. Who knows, maybe the money you saved could be enough for a downpayment on a house when you're in your thirties. (Okay I have no idea how old you are now but I'm guessing 24-26.) Anyway I look at it, you've got great options, so look into the SIS career stuff, figure out if they've got sufficiently practical and rigorous courses, even if there aren't quite as many as at other schools, and make your choice. You really can't go wrong, so long as you take the bull by the horns. Good luck!

Yes, unjustified. Tons of people from SAIS go into finance. You should go to SAIS. People always deliberate about whether SAIS or SIPA is better and they're really on par with each other in most ways. I understand the name difference but anyone who's hiring and knows about this is going to know that SAIS is very rigorous and absolutely as impressive as SIPA, if not more (depending on who they are. Some people think so and others do not, in terms of professionals who do hiring; it totally depends who you ask.) Go to SAIS for free and don't look back! You rock it while you're there, get close to your profs, take advantage of all the DC networking opportunities in a resourceful way, and you're absolutely set for life. No way you could do better than that at SIPA considering the opportunity cost of working with a BA for another two years and potentially paying for it vs. a free ride at SAIS. Seriously.

Congrats on your choices! From what I know, IPS is not going to give you rigorous quantitative training unless you go way out of your way to get it, and if you want to work for a multilateral idev agency, I would think SAIS or HKS is definitely your best bet. Stanford is awesome with social entrepreneurship and development start-ups, but not the place to go for multilateral agency goals. I know SAIS funnels a ton of students into such organizations, and I imagine you'd have similar options with HKS. Don't know about Cornell. I didn't get the impression from IPS admissions or students that the funding opportunities in the second year are all that significant, but it is a much smaller program so I suppose your chance of getting one of the 50% assistantships may be higher than elsewhere. I don't know what "minimal debt" entails exactly, but if I were you, I would look into the specific quant classes you'd get at Cornell and the employment stats in multilateral agencies. If they both seem satisfactory to you, I'd take that and avoid ~$100K in loans. If the quant stuff is weak or hard to get into and they don't have that many alumni in aid agencies, you can just about guarantee you'll get to work in one if you excel at SAIS. Fortunately, pay scales in multilateral agencies are relatively easy to track down, so calculate what your payments would be and whether the positions you'd qualify for would be doable given your debt load. Just my 2 cents. Good luck!

On that note, since I share your position to some extent, I'll add what I know / think about these schools and the other one I'm considering... SAIS: Better recognized for rigorous econ training, which is one of the arguably most useful skills you can gain as an i-dev grad student, seeing as it's difficult to gather via field experience. I've heard SIPA students say their SAIS friends felt like econ was "all they did" at SAIS, but that doesn't particularly bother me; I love econ and I think more of it should be beaten into my brain. A friend of mine is an adjunct microfinance prof at SAIS and said the students are "engaged and wicked smart." As for the community feel, it's definitely different from the other schools given that the campus is all by itself (academically) but surrounded by interesting think tanks and Dupont Circle, but I would still say I felt a sense of community there and I thought the campus was in a pretty awesome location. That being said, I've also heard (from knowledgeable sources and in reading SAIS student publications) that students there can be a bit whiney about various things, including grades of B-, the lack of a campus, blah blah. But maybe people complain everywhere. My SO might be in DC next year and I'd ideally live with him anyway, so I guess the community/location would suit me relatively well if I picked this, because I'm not trying to find a place where I can live in a dorm and engage with other students 24/7. SAIS has name recognition among those in the field, but that's pretty much it. I-dev and IR people. That being said, those are the people who are likely to be employing us. SIPA: I'd rather be in New York, both next year and medium-term, but I am concerned by the comments in this forum that SIPA maybe isn't that competitive, that it may be seen as a *slightly* weaker degree by some development professionals in DC and also by an economist I know who's a full prof at Yale IDE and teaches weekly at SIPA, who says that the SIPA students are too weak in their econ/quant training. But if you're more interested in management, for example, it might make more sense to take a more flexible curriculum. I've also met SIPA students all over the world...doing water sanitation work in Madagascar, microfinance internships in China, etc. I am mildly concerned that, over a more competitive school like Kennedy, this may mean that SIPA students are doing/hoping to do the kinds of things that I've been doing already (ie summer internships where I work), and that this may be the reason I run into so many of them. Then again, when I read about people doing cool and higher level stuff in the development field, it often jumps out at me that they have an MPA from SIPA. Friends working in idev in DC (for Grameen Foundation, for example,) have said that SIPA has a really active recruiting schedule in DC and is well recognized. I get the feeling that doing SIPA -> DC is easier than SAIS -> NYC. But that probably depends on how rigorous you are with networking. I know a full prof in I-dev at SAIS who says that, for development and microfinance specifically, SIPA is the strongest program. I have a lot of field experience already and no language classes to deal with, so it may be that accumulating as many quantitative and practical analysis / management skills at SIPA would be the best balance for me. The SIPA students I've met are all really cool, though I do have the impression that the school itself feels a bit more impersonal and/or like the second part of a lot of people's dual degrees. I've also heard from another Columbia student whose friend went to SIPA (so this is third-hand, take with a few grains of salt) "SIPA is only worth it if you network the hell out of NYC," which is undoubtedly true anywhere, but it's sure that at SIPA you really have to be assertive and resourceful about getting the experience you want. Also, SIPA grades everything on a curve, determines second year funding by first semester grades, and requires group work in "almost every class." I find this to be an odd combination and have heard from a SIPA student (who is now an alumna) that it degrades the potential for a sense of community because it makes things more competitive, which is unfortunate. Particularly given the prevalence of group work. The practicum is a cool experience if you need field work--it was during those projects that I tended to run into SIPA students in the field. Professor accessibility varies a lot depending on the person; the big people (ie Nobel prize winners) are mostly just teaching PhD students, but they give lectures regularly that sound well attended. Columbia has great name recognition, but it's still not quite as stellar as Harvard, which may not matter. I spent a while in China, where Harvard is the only school anyone has heard of, and I'm afraid that has damaged my sense of name recognition for other schools. I want to be based in the US most of the rest of my life (I think...though that could change!) so perhaps I shouldn't bother thinking about any of that. Fletcher: I've spoken with a Fletcher alum (2009) who went to my alma mater for undergrad and said the idev certificate program feels like the strongest (and highest satisfaction) program at Fletcher, which is weaker on area studies and political and civil society development. I've had a scholarship offer and liked the school a lot for the hour during which I visited, and in some ways it feels like a great fit, though the alumnus with whom I spoke was not impressed with the level of teaching compared to our undergrad institution (which, though not always well known, is quite a challenging, small (1,600), and fanatically liberal arts school where you really have to be on your toes in class), and said class sizes at Fletcher are "atrocious", that many of the required courses are ~70 students. He also said that the social scene is a bit reminiscent of undergrad (our school was in a village and had one bar, so I take this to mean that there's a lot of creative partying/drinking happening on campus, which I don't particularly care about), and, more importantly, that some of the "community feel" that the Fletcher marketing teams try to highlight is a bit exaggerated. It may still be a stronger community than some of the others, and professor accessibility may be highest there. Unfortunately, I don't particularly want to be in Boston, as my SO is much more likely to be in NYC or DC (with a preference for the former), so it requires a bit of a personal sacrifice to be in Boston in the first place. I'm a little concerned that, given the option of Kennedy School, it might be a better investment for me to go to Harvard if I'm going to be in Boston, and just take some classes at Fletcher. I've been out of the country for three years and want to be in a place that feels really connected, and I wish I could plop Fletcher down in the middle of NYC, and then maybe put NYC in California, and then maybe put California in Brazil and add good Chinese food, but whatever. The point, as someone else pointed out in these forums, is to research the hell out of the schools, (the idev faculty you want to work with, the curriculum--PARTICULARLY in terms of practical courses that will give you concrete skills to put on your CV afterwards)--make a decision, and not look back. No matter where you are, you need to be thinking all the time about how your choices translate to your CV. Basically, says the buddy who works at Grameen and does a fair amount of hiring, you want grad school to not only translate into a degree name on your CV, but a whole list of other things--practical skills, internships, practicum experiences consulting for idev NGOs, etc. Which makes sense to me--if one wants to be a practitioner. Kennedy - I originally heard that Kennedy is a lot more theoretical and academic than SIPA/SAIS/Fletcher, which are generally recognized as the three most practical ones. However, when I look through the HKS curriculum, there seems to be a TON of practical stuff in there, and it's just a wider curriculum in general. Also, a bigger school, but the total number of students focused on international stuff may be comparable to the others and then there may be that many again who are doing domestic policy stuff. The newish MPA/ID seems to be recognized by many as the most practical degree in idev at any level, but students have an average of 5 yrs work experience and the required courses include 3 university level math courses, which I don't have (I was more humanities/anthro/econ oriented). So I applied to the MPP instead and got in, with one of their much-touted-on-gradcafe "awards" of a bazillion dollars in loans. The program is 30k more than any of the others and the application was such a beast, but it's exciting to have this as an option. It's just a different type of school in some ways and I'm not sure whether it's what I want, or whether I'd want to live in Boston (given personal constraints) just to have a degree from there. Then again, lots of (lay) people seem to think that the alumni network and name are so unparalleled that they would open a lot of doors. Still, if I want to be in New York after graduating, maybe it makes the most sense to do SIPA, given that the real-time connections I could make as a student seem like they could trump the significant presence of alumni from the other schools in NYC post-graduation. I talked to a student ambassador from HKS who gave a glowing report, mostly with explicit anecdotal evidence, of all the things I was concerned about (prof accessibility, availability of classes I want, size, community feel, cooperative vs. competitive spirit, job placement, required courses, etc.) I was really impressed after speaking with her, but I want to track down some students and alumni on my own to balance out the view of someone who is probably a student ambassador because she's a big fan. The main thing that made me consider Kennedy more was that she said, in terms of the theoretical - practical balance, that the only complaints she'd heard were from students who wanted it to be *more* theoretical/academic. But her view comes with a grain of salt. If she's right, though, it sounds amazing. Georgetown - I applied to GPPI instead of MSFS, though now I don't remember why, and when I visited the campus, it made kind of a bad impression, though I admit that was not necessarily for logical reasons...just one of those gut feelings that said "this place is not me" that you can't really ignore because you can't get excited about going there. MSFS is definitely well regarded, especially for IR, though I really don't get the impression from professionals with whom I work, or am acquainted, etc. that it's really as good for international development practitioners as SIPA/SAIS/Fletcher. That being said, I don't know as much about it because I didn't apply there. Okay, those are my thoughts. I think I need to dig into curriculum research now and really get as concrete an idea as possible about how coursework at any of these places would look in terms of practical skills afterwards. I think part of my heart wants to go to Kennedy because it's more selective and seems like the other students there are most likely to have done really impressive things in the idev field, speak tons of languages, and generally engage on a pretty high intellectual level with a lot of relevant experience to share, but at the same time, I want to like SIPA as much or more, because I want to be in New York. SIPA didn't offer me any aid though, which isn't a surprise, and I sort of feel like they don't necessarily want me, whereas Fletcher was quite a bit more personal about the wooing. And SAIS is generally smaller and might give me more of a challenge in the sense that it's more personal. So I have no idea. Okay, I know I wrote a bunch of stream of consciousness stuff there, but I hope some of that might help you out and let me know if you come up with anymore information and make a decision! I can't go to any of the visit days because I'm abroad, so if anyone has info about those either, I would be really grateful to hear it. Take care and best of luck with your decisions. As I'm sure you've heard a lot, those are all awesome options, so you're pretty much golden

I'm in a similar dilemma myself and I actually emailed Prof. Fukuyama about his departure to ask whether he thought I should go to SAIS or IPS (vs. Fletcher, SIPA, HKS, Wagner, etc.) given that I've been working in i-dev, will continue after grad school, and had really been hoping to work with him specifically. He told me to go to SAIS. He's only going to teach one course at Stanford and maybe not even specifically for IPS students. He didn't answer my questions about whether he would be serving as a faculty advisor or hiring research assistants. Here's the gist: " It's hard for me to tell you too much about the Stanford IPS program since I've never worked directly with it. I will probably only teach one course a year when I get out to Palo Alto, and it may not be in that program. I do know that it is much smaller and less well established than SAIS. One huge advantage that SAIS has is its location--much of the development world is physically located in Washington, which gives you a tremendous leg up in networking, internships, and seminars. So overall I'd say SAIS would be a better choice." -March 21, 2010