Catpaw

I would actually love to hear other people's answers to this. I don't know that this question has come up in quite this form before. My impression is that, among the fully-funded schools, prestige is a mix of self-propagating reputation + a higher stipend and/or famous faculty (ideally both, but sometimes—like with Syracuse—the faculty are famous enough that people overlook the meh stipend). Vanderbilt is a relatively new program, for example, but it developed a reputation fast, in part because their stipend is among the highest, and they brought in some prestigious faculty. So a lot of people apply, and it lets them be choosy with their cohort, and bam. A burgeoning reputation. Iowa, on the other hand, has kind of a 'meh' stipend compared to many. And—this is very subjective and I'm almost leery of saying it—I don't feel that their core faculty are often the main draw, for most applicants...? But its reputation is everything, and they've graduated so many reputable authors that everyone can name at least one author they admire who studied at Iowa... Its huge applicant pool and large cohort size also helps maintain their reputation, because it lets them pick a large number of top applicants. So inevitably there are rising stars who graduate from each cohort. But there are also plenty of Iowa graduates who come out of the program and essentially never write again. I know two personally. They do accept (and graduate) a lot of duds, which I think is true of most programs honestly, but with Iowa it's kinda hidden by the large cohort size. I also get the impression that semi-arbitrary online ranking systems can perpetuate a sense of 'reputation'. UVA recently got a huge boost in its online ranking reputation (probably helped, too, by the big increase in their stipend!) but I remember a few years back when their reputation was more muted. Even though the core faculty have remained nearly identical throughout? But the reshuffling of online rankings (plus, I guess, the better stipend) really increased their applicant size. I think Johns Hopkins is the main school I think of where their reputation is presented to applicants as numbers-based. Yes they have famous faculty, yes they have a really high stipend, but also they present metrics such as "many of our graduates have signed a book deal three years within graduating" or "many of our graduates go on to receive Stegner Fellowships" and it's hard to argue with results like that. But it's also telling of their focus. It smells, to me, like a self-selecting prophecy—it says that they're going to select for students whose works already feel like they could be mainstream-publishable, and whose aesthetic maps to what the Stegner Fellowship likes to see. Aka, there's a good chance that many of their students would have gotten an agent (or a Stegner Fellowship) within five years anyways, even if they hadn't applied to Hopkins. Because those are the type of students that Hopkins is looking for, and accepting. In contrast, some programs don't allow agents on their campus at all, and they put the focus entirely on the writing for writing's sake. Those programs are looking for a very different kind of student. I feel, too, that some reputations come across as near-universal (Iowa, for example) but a lot of it is subjective... I don't get a strong sense of Cornell having a 'universal prestige' reputation for example (they are very reputable, don't get me wrong!), but I definitely feel like Michener has that reputation? In my head, I see Iowa, Michener, and Michigan as the 'top 3' in terms of prestige and name-recognition, but I feel like this is so fuzzy as a metric, and I'm really interested to see how my internal sense compares to other people's perceptions! (Also I should add that I'm thinking from the POV of fiction. I am sure that it's a bit different for poetry or CNF.)

From what I can see in the forum backlog, there were eight rejections for fiction posted to the Draft spreadsheet on February 18. One of the rejections was reported here by rhaenyra, who does post on the forum. No other rejections reported since then!

Yes, I did! All was resolved smoothly. I'll quote my response below (but thank you so much for asking, I appreciate it!).

To the folks who are regretting leading with a transgressive or darker writing sample: On one hand, yes, the people reading these samples are reading hundreds of them, and that makes one's attention lag. Tired readers are more likely to go off a brief flash of an impression of a sample, at first glance, and they're more likely to pass on a sample whose flash-impression doesn't match their subconscious mental model of what they're expecting a 'good' MFA sample to look like. And they will miss some really bold and exciting writing by doing this. Though, small comfort when it means we don't get into the program... However. I have a friend who worked with a reputable MFA mentor for their application, and the mentor repeatedly tried to get my friend to cut a certain experimental and transgressive passage (which went on for several pages), and which felt key to their submission. The mentor felt strongly that this whole passage would completely repel the adcoms. My friend and I, on the other hand, both felt it was the best part of the sample. My friend ended up keeping the passage. And yes, they were rejected from the majority of programs they applied to. But the top programs that accepted them did tell them, during calls, how that passage had been the moment when they knew they wanted my friend at their program. One professor (who was a writer my friend really admired) specifically dubbed it as 'brave' and couldn't stop talking about it. I think we all take certain gambles with the writing samples that we send to the programs. We try to show our best work, and sometimes 'best' can mean our bravest work. Sometimes our bravest work can freak people out lol. Or they just bounce right off of it because, whatever, it's not for them! But sometimes you do reach someone with it who sees it for what it is. So, sometimes, the gamble can pay off.

Oof. Yeah, I can't think of why they'd batch e-mail requests for interviews, so I'm going to take this as a soft R. I'm really sorry you didn't hear back.

I'd probably describe my genre as some kinda blend between psychological realism and surrealism as well—the two always end up muddled together in my fiction, I guess. I've been very interested in detailed character-work lately, whereas a few years earlier I think I was more focused on language and image. (Also yes, agreed, I'm always curious what other people write, if others feel comfortable sharing! So if someone is reading this and is feeling inclined to share as well, please totally do so!) Tbh your project sounds fascinating to me so I hope you keep working on your novel over the next months! I too have been too stressed recently to write much (for obvious reasons lol), but I'm also looking forward to writing in the next months without having to think about a deadline... Feels like such a luxury to contemplate, after grinding for months for these apps!

Most will still be the same, but some can change drastically (Hopkins made a major shift recently, for example) or otherwise reword their prompt in a way that's distinct from what it used to be (I think UVA did this). And sometimes they'll add or subtract mini-essays too. If applying again for a future round, do double-check every single school's SOP requirement. Confirm it's what you expect it to be. Most will be the same, but then there's the ones that surprise you... (This advice is brought to you by me wishing that I'd thought to do this, as I got some nasty surprises a few weeks before the deadlines and had to rework my SOPs for those schools accordingly.)

Whoa a kindred spirit! Haha. Are your different modes of writing always fairly separated for you, or do they mix sometimes in the same piece? And yeah I do know what you mean about "pitching" and I don't think it's necessarily an incorrect instinct... For all that the programs do repeat just send us your strongest work, it's also true that definitions of 'strongest' get subjective past a certain point. "Strongest in what I felt I could pitch successfully to the adcoms" is a variety of strongest! It's impossible to say how adcoms will or won't perceive our applications, and what version of 'strong' will resonate with them—that aspect is always a black box, I guess.

It's not butting in at all, this is a forum!! 😄 I wish I could give you a satisfying answer, but it was super specific to their situation. Pretty much: it was for a school that does interviews, and the interview was friendly and casual, and afterwards my friend was told that they were #1 on the waitlist. And my friend happened to know that one of the people who had gotten accepted flat-out to this school wasn't planning to attend it. (The other person had also gotten into Iowa, and was clear that they were accepting Iowa.) So my friend knew that someone from the waitlist was definitely getting in off the waitlist—and they were #1 on the waitlist—so yeah.

So. This is true, all other things equal. However. I have a friend who applied with only a novel excerpt, and they got into one of the most selective programs and were also waitlisted at two others (with a guarantee of getting off the waitlist for one of them). I think there were a number of factors that made my friend's application really work for the schools who admitted them. And, all other things equal: being able to submit two stories, or a novel excerpt + a story, does up your chances a lot. A couple of MFA professors have expressed their hesitations on social media about novel excerpts, since an excerpt doesn't reliably show them whether an applicant can 'land the plane' with endings, so to speak. So including at least one short story is a way to say "oh I absolutely can land this plane, check this out, vroom vroom" et cetera. But if you feel that your stories are a notable caliber below what you're able to do at novel length, and that your novel writing is your strongest by far—submit the novel! I don't think my friend would have gotten into any school with their short stories at the time. Their novel-in-progress was a caliber above. And yes, their novel excerpt still got them rejected from a ton of schools, but it also really impressed a couple others, and that's all it takes to get in. You just need to impress one.

Yeah I submitted completely different material for the second round, and geared my writing in 2024 towards the applications. I do have the misfortune of working in awkwardly long forms—most of my 'short' stories are too long for many MFA submissions. So my initial goal was to write some short standalone stories, because those seem best-suited to MFA application requirements. But in the end, everything got too long again (blah!) so I ended up focusing on projects that I felt would excerpt effectively for an application. My strongest piece in my previous application round was a 65-page novella, and I really struggled to find ways to excerpt it effectively and without breaking the story's logic. I'm not sure I ever did succeed. (Clearly not, since I didn't get in anywhere lol!) I do think my strongest piece this round was a story-in-three-sections that I managed to squeeze down to exactly 40 pages. So all the 40-page-max applications got that story in full. I don't think it got me any acceptances this round either, but I feel much better about that application because I feel I was better able to demonstrate my abilities within the space they give you. That makes the rejections feel less bitter. I'd rather be rejected for giving it my all, and to know I showcased myself the best I could, regardless of their decisions.

Aah I'm the opposite—three years is more appealing to me than two years! But I'm also less interested in the credential (or in teaching afterwards) than the experience itself, and getting to immerse myself for a couple years. BU being only one year is actually the main reason I didn't apply there.

Ah! Yeah I wish they wouldn't drip it out like this... Well, I guess I will count U of Arizona a soft rejection then. Damn.

Ah, do you mean U of Arizona, or Arizona State University? I'm awful at remembering which abbreviations refer to which school (and I'm not on Draft!), so I may have missed updates about U of Arizona results coming in...

Adding that Hunter is most likely to be next week as well at the earliest. I wasn't attending to the cycle last year, but two years ago they called to notify about interviews on 2/25.

It's not inconsequential if you do have prestigious publication credits, but it's also not of high importance. Many people without any prior publications get accepted; a lot of people with prior publications (and often prestigious ones!) do not get admitted. It doesn't seem to play a strong factor in final decisions.

Oof... Very sorry to hear it. Has anyone posted acceptances/waitlists for Irvine? I'm guessing I'll be getting my rejection any moment now too. Rejection buddies!

Rejections can (and sometimes do) come in waves for some schools. It seems to be something in how the system is set up for certain schools, but I don't really have any insight as to why it happens—just that it does sometimes. WashU has sent their rejections in waves in the past, for example. A bit annoying for us, but what can you do...

Yes, and mine too. It probably means they've processed (or at least in some way accessed) our submissions. Though, my sense is UVA notifies later in February (closer to early March, I thought) so we still might not hear for a while? I don't remember their typical timing.

Iowa doesn't, and Michigan hasn't historically. UVA however does do interviews now before finalizing results. (And I can't speak for NYU since it's not one of the schools I know about!)

Responding to the stress from the previous page around our writing samples: I think of our samples as, "With this sample, I've committed to a perspective—a lens—through which I'm showcasing my writing for this application, and I've done my best to present that perspective coherently to the committee." Different samples to different programs can showcase our writing from varying perspectives, of course, and I think that's good and fine! We contain multitudes lol But whether the committee recognizes that perspective, or is swayed by it, is a gamble we all take. And the people staffing MFA programs are human. They're fallible and they have subjective taste and they can miss things—even at the most selective programs. Plus, many top MFA instructors have spoken about how the final decisions come down to splitting hairs, and often in ways that have little to do with the individual quality or promise of one's writing. There is always, always an element of chance. If you submitted a story or a chapter that you feel is some of your strongest work, and is something you feel really damn proud of... it still doesn't guarantee you'll get into any top-tier program. But this is because the whole process has so many elements of unwitting fortune—and though we wish we could control the final result through the sheer quality of our writing sample, it's not really something we can control in that way at all. So whether you get in, or not, doesn't change that what you submitted can still be really damn good.

I know you are likely hoping for a clear-cut yes or no answer, but my cautious answer would be "it depends on the writing sample." And possibly depends on who you list as your writing influences, too, in conjunction with the sample. My impression of JH's faculty is that they're not particularly focused on spec fic, though I could be missing someone on the roster who is... Still, I think that if you are submitting spec fic which can read as in some way as either experimental or fabulist, and which has a focus on the language on a sentence level, then you'll likely be fine. (I also realize that many people define spec fic very differently, so I didn't want to get too into the weeds with this answer and then have it turn out we were thinking of completely different things as 'spec fic'!)

Just a quick update on this, in case anyone ends up in a similar boat: the MFA Program Coordinator for Irvine replied a couple of hours after I reached out, and he confirmed that they got my packet—the postcard must have just gone astray in the mail. I'm glad I reached out for the ease of mind. They were quick to respond and very courteous!

Thank you!! This has been something I've been really uncertain about for a while since I never got the postcard back, but I didn't want to overstep. Thank you for confirming this... I will reach out!

If we applied to Irvine and opted to include the self-addressed postcard with our manuscript (aka, the postcard that gets mailed back to you as proof-of-receipt), do you know if we should we have received that postcard by now? Or do those postcards get mailed only as each individual app gets reviewed? I've been uncertain if I should reach out to the department and confirm whether my application packet actually made it to Irvine, or if I'd be inquiring too soon... Just not sure what the appropriate process is.