Bpr2106

Is the email from Virginia Kay?

Point taken about our mutual use of anecdotal evidence. In addition, everything you say about the competitiveness of Ph.D. programs is of course true. However the bottom line is that going to an Ivy League school for an M.A. will give you a greater chance at gaining acceptance to a Ph.D. program than going to a much less competitive program will. Like I said, I was offered a full scholarship plus a stipend at Georgetown, and I chose Columbia (and Georgetown is not much less competitive than Columbia). The fact of the matter is that if you excel at the highest level possible it will help your application.

I'm not clear on your logic here. Are you suggesting that funded M.A.'s by virtue of them being funded somehow help you get into Ph.D. programs? Or are you suggesting that M.A. programs in general don't help you get into Ph.D. programs, and thus paying for one makes little sense? I've spoken to many people from both the Georgetown M.A. program, and the Columbia M.A. program who have gone on to have great success in applying to Ph.D. programs. I think you have to be careful about making blanket assertions based on anecdotal evidence (i.e. your friends who've gone to UC).

Why the vitriol? There is no need to resent someone who is fortunate enough to be able to go an earn an M.A. degree at a private college. As far as your 'academics scoff at them', what does that even mean? As I've suggested above, who do you think would look more impressive to an ad com, someone who excelled at Columbia, gained excellent recommendations from tenured faculty, and wrote a great M.A. thesis, or someone who got a funded M.A. from a much less competitive institution. This subject always inspires a lot of snark from both sides. I can understand why, but unless people are blatant prestige whores, flaunt their privilege, and/or don't work hard at what they do, then I don't see any room for criticism.

With all due respect to your professor, this is from the Columbia website: APPLYING AS AN M.A.-ONLY STUDENT Typically about 13 M.A.O. students enter the program each year. For fall of 2008, the department received 100 M.A.O. applications and accepted 25%. The average GPA of accepted U.S.-trained M.A.O. applicants was 3.8; only a very few had a GPA of 3.5 or lower, and then only when other aspects of the record stood out. The average verbal GRE of U.S.-trained students was 695. If 25% admissions, a 3.8 gpa, and a 695 verbal, qualifies as "letting almost anyone in" then perhaps I don't understand the meaning of that phrase. I was offered a full scholarship to Georgetown plus a healthy stipend and I turned it down to get my M.A. at Columbia. I couldn't disagree more with the advice being given on this board. If you do not want to have a career as an academic then go and get yourself a fully funded M.A. wherever you can. However, if you DO want to pursue a Ph.D. then go to the best department you can possibly go to, form relationships with the most influential professors you possibly can, and produce dynamic scholarship. This whole sentiment that 'scholars look down" on people who pay for M.A.'s is meaningless. At the end of the day, when an admissions committee is evaluating your application they are not going to say, oh wait, this guy excelled at the highest level, has recommendations from powerhouse faculty, and with their guidance produced forceful scholarship BUT, he paid for it - so screw him. I know elitism is a taboo subject on this board but going to the best schools helps you get into the best schools. Not necessarily by the name alone, but rather, by placing you in a cutting edge intellectual environment that will push you to produce the best scholarship you possibly can. With all due respect to Wake Forest, if you can afford it, and are serious about using an M.A. program as a stepping stone to gain admission into a Ph.D. program, then by all means go to Columbia. M.A. student's backgrounds are varied. Many programs get a bad rap because a lot of M.A. student's are not serious about their studies and give the whole endeavor a bad name. However, if you're talented, and serious about what you do, they can serve as an effective stepping stone.

Hey Joey, Out of curiosity, which SUNY did you attend for the M.A., and did you find it helpful to use as a stepping stone to gain admission to Ph.D. programs?

A lot of people have knee jerk reactions to 'paying for graduate school'- professor's included. This doesn't seem to make all that much sense because people considering unfunded MA's, unless they are very irresponsible, are probably fortunate enough that they can afford it. Another reason why using funded/unfunded as a rubric to make decisions about M.A. programs is unhelpful is because not all M.A. programs are created equal. The fact of the matter is that attending Columbia will give you more powerful recommendations, and allow you to compete at a higher level (and thus produce more dynamic scholarship) than attending a much less competitive program would. That said, many of the M.A. programs at the top ranked schools (if they have them at all) are unfunded. Granted, this is all with the caveat that paying for an M.A. program is financially feasible for an applicant. If so, they can most definitely serve at useful stepping stones to great Ph.D. programs,

Hey Mike, I was also accepted to McGill and to Georgetown (with funding) for English. In addition, I went to McGill for undergraduate school and got a B.A. in English. Chances are I'll be attending neither of these places but I think there are a few distinctive pros and cons to each that I'd be able to enumerate for you. The pros of McGill are that it's cheap (Canadian universities are all heavily, heavily subsidized by the govt), and that, as opposed to U.S. M.A. programs, when you are accepted to a Canadian M.A. program it's pretty much implied, if you do reasonably well, that you will be approved to continue on as a sequential Ph.D. candidate. As I'm sure you know, this is NOT the case here in the U.S. The cons of McGill are that it's freezing in the winter. Literally, absolutely, ridiculously, freezing cold. To the point where it's really not enjoyable to live there (I'm a New Yorker, so it's not like I've never been through a winter, but Montreal is another level). In addition, while the faculty is very good, it's not GREAT. I guess from what I've gleaned the faculties at G'Town and McGill are comparable, but you might find more folks at G'Town who have good ins with American Ph.D. programs. That brings me to my last point, while McGill is a highly, highly respected international institution, I think most of it's humanities Ph.D.'s have succes finding jobs at other Canadian universities. However, that's not necessarily a bad thing as IMO Canada is a wonderful place. In terms of G'Town, I;m not nearly as knowledgeable (considering I've never gone there), but to me they seem pretty dedicated to getting their students into top notch American Ph.D. programs. In addition they have a wealth of extracurricular avenues of involvement (DC prison outreach program, DC schools project, etc etc.). It's also in D.C. so your opportunity to see various speakers and meet various figured will be much, much greater than it would be at McGill. Anyway, thats really all I can think of for now, but if you have any further questions feel free to PM me. Cheers, BPR

Is anyone attending, or has anyone attended this program in the past?

I don't have much advice about the Bonaventure decision, but I do know for a fact that Villanova hasn't notified anyone at all yet- so I wouldn't give up hope at all on that front. Good luck!

It really seems as if it's program to program. Further, when discussing whether or not getting an M.A. will make you a less competitive applicant, I really, really, think you need to factor in where said M.A. is from. If you get an M.A. from a lesser institution, or one that has a 'cash cow' reputation, then yes, perhaps it will be of little help. However, if you go and get yourself an M.A. from a top 15 school (pardon the use of rankings), then I just don't see how it would be harmful. I would be curious to hear where those who are vehemently against the M.A. received theirs.

Michelle, I think you should take all the negative comments with a, or possible multiple, grain(s) of salt. Congrats on the UVA acceptance. My big comment to everyone on the board who is naysaying getting an M.A. degree is that the discussion, as it's been had, isn't even really valid. How can one assess the value of getting an M.A., generally speaking. Like any other type of degree, not all M.A.'s are created equal. The simple fact is that getting an M.A. at UVA is a different enterprise all together than getting an M.A. at a lesser school.

Congrats!! Were you accepted by email, or did you find out by checking your status on the UVA website?

Tea, Where, might I ask, did you do your M.A.?