The Mark
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Posts posted by The Mark
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I scored in the 17th percentile (yes, I'm serious) on the gre quant and somehow managed to get into the ITIP program at GW, which is essentially a straight international economics program—unlike SAIS, which is only half int'l econ and half functional/regional study. The irony is, SAIS is where I really wanted to go, and, though I haven't heard this directly from them, I'm confident I didn't get in there mostly because of my horrible math background and gre quant score. Yet GW thought I could handle two straight years of int'l econ. Go figure. I don't know how that happened, but it did. So there is hope, especially if you don't want to study econ heavily, which I actually did.
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Does it happen? If so, is it difficult to do? And if you can, is it even worth doing?
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Need an Elliott one.
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Well, there's something to be said for self-selection...........................................................I hope
Yeah, or the myopia of admissions committees at top schools.
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A 64 percent acceptance rate for my program doesn't exactly make me feel better about getting in.
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I applied to four DC schools and was accepted only to the Elliott School ITIP program with no funding. Naturally, I've been thinking a lot about this very topic, and the conclusion I've come to (at least for now) is this: the ITIP program at Elliott is worth borrowing the full $60k for tuition for two years, but not the full advertised cost of attendance (COA) for two years, which would amount to about double that. The metric I've heard is "Don't borrow more than you expect to make in your first year on the job." Whether this is accurate, I don't know. Maybe some other people can chime-in.
Given the salary range of ITIP grads from the last few years' employment reports (the highest of all the Elliott School programs), $60k seems like a manageable amount of debt. Plus, my situation is unique. I'm an older student, but my relevant (note the emphasis) work experience is weak, so the chance to live, work/network, and go to school in the hub of international relations for two years will provide me with opportunities that I will never have should I choose not to attend. I don't want to get too into the weeds about my background and professional goals, but there's no doubt that my chances of accomplishing my long-term goals will be greatly increased by taking the GW offer and giving it my all rather than not going. For me, the key is that I will need to work full-time to minimize how much I borrow, so I'll be spending my summer looking for a job. Once I accept my offer at GW, I can put that on my resume and hopefully use it as leverage to find higher quality jobs/internship opportunities. I'll be attending the Elliott School open house on April 12, and I'm expecting great things.
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You could always put down a deposit at GW, talk to SAIS in June, then make a decision about re-applying after you hear what SAIS has to say. Sure, you'll probably lose your deposit, but what's $500 here when you're talking about a much more expensive education slash the psychic cost of wondering what-if for the rest of your life.
And if it is because of your GRE, then you need to study and retake. There are legitimate reasons why some people don't ace the GRE and it has nothing to do with smarts. But (!), the GRE is a particularly coachable test: if you study in the right way, you will raise your score. I've tutored SAT and ACT and I've gotten kids 10 percentile point increases -- this wasn't b/c I'm some magic tutor or b/c they were secretly brilliant, but b/c these tests are predictable and can be gamed. I'm lazy as hell, so I understand not wanting to study for a test that will take 4 hours of your entire life; but, if you don't want to kick yourself every time you walk SAIS, then struggle through GRE studying. Enlist the help of friends / family to pester you and harass you into studying. It can be done.
On the other hand, taking GW's offer very likely won't adversely affect your career in the long run, so the cost at this point is mostly psychological. And it's only two years out of a lifetime, so when you're 80 and reflecting back on your awesome kickass career, I bet you won't mind so much that you went to one school instead of another. So you could also get over the rejection (much easier said than done, I know; I've been rejected from plenty of things in my life), and make GW work awesomely for you. Good luck!
Thanks, MollB! I like your perspective. I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I didn't study for the GRE last time around. I took it completely cold. Considering that, my verbal was actually pretty respectable (69th percentile), but the quant, arguably the most important part, was dismal (17th percentile). No clue how I got into GW at all, let alone their international econ program. I am in no way bitter about the fact that a four hour test can invalidate 15 years of personal, professional, and intellectual growth and achievement........yeah.
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I just called SAIS, and they said that I should contact them in June, and that I could set up either an in-person or phone meeting with an admissions counselor to go over the reasons why my application was rejected. Had anyone here ever taken advantage of this, and how blunt are they?
On the one hand, I think I should just take the offer I have at GW. On the other hand, it's going to annoy me every time I have to walk past SAIS and know I could/should be there. If they can offer me specific reasons A, B, and C why I didn't get in—and if they're reasons that are easily fixable (i.e. GRE, lack of math background)—then I may just fix the issues and reapply.
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I tend to agree with mnboy that no MPP or MA/IR is really worth crazy debt because public policy jobs don't pay huge salaries and the difference in career options between programs is not as pronounced as the difference between Law or MBA programs, especially if you're wanting to go in to government or non-profit work. For every door a program may open, your debt load may close three others because you can't afford to live in DC on that salary and still make your monthly loan payment, for example.
GWU is expensive and DC's an expensive city. If it were me, I'd take a year, work on your GRE, work experience, statements, etc. and also cast a wider net when you apply next year. You might get good financial aid and some nice stand-out opportunities at another school. Sometimes you've got to just find the right school that's looking for applicants just like you.
I'm actually considering taking a year off and doing just that. But it's kind of a scary proposition. Outside of drastically improving my GRE, I feel like there's only so much I could accomplish professionally between now and the end of the year. Then I could apply and end up in a not too much better situation than I'm in now. To be perfectly honest, my GRE was atrocious, particularly my quant score. I have no idea how I got into the Elliott program I did. I have a feeling that was a big part of the reason for the rejections from SAIS and MSFS. I'm going to attempt to get some specific feedback from both programs, and if it's along the lines of "Improve your GRE scores and you've got a real shot", then I may do just that. My professional background is very nontraditional. I though thought it would be an asset—and I thought I explained pretty well in my statements why it would be—but I guess they didn't see it that way.
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I am currently in the GW ITIP program, so I thought I would offer my view.
I really like the program. I think it is more marketable than the more general IA program and there is more individualized attention. The program office does a good job of getting out information about internships and other opportunities. I definitely think that the ability to intern or work during the day is a huge benefit of GW (though I believe American may be the same). Everyone that I know of in the ITIP program has some kind of internship. However, I believe most of them are not paid (though there are some).
As to whether the MA is worth it, I think it depends what you want to do. For a lot of jobs in international orgs or think tanks, a grad degree is required. If you look at bios of key public and private officials that work on international issues, almost all of them have grad degrees. So I think that if you want to work in the field, it is important to have the degree eventually. For government, the degree may be less important, but it is becoming more and more difficult to get a government job these days. That's my take, at least.
Full disclosure: I am actually working full time and have a good financial package at GW, so the cost is less of an issue for me. I still would have come to DC (and probably GW) for my degree if I had not gotten the job and scholarship right away, though. I think it is very helpful to be here where the policy is actually happening and the employment/networking opportunities are greater, and the ability to work/intern during the day is key.
CalSeeker: That's very helpful information and exactly what I was looking for. Thank you. I certainly would like to/need to work full time during the two years I'm there, but I'm curious how one finds the time to do school work and study when you're at work all day and in class most of the evening. The ITIP program sounds like it's exactly what I'm looking for. My undergrad degree was kind of soft, so I was hell bent on finding a quality international economics program with great career opportunities. That sounds like what ITIP is.
My real concern is borrowing money for the full cost of attendance. If I can manage to live off the money I make from a full-time or almost full-time job, then I would be willing to borrow only the cost of tuition, which, assuming tuition doesn't skyrocket this coming year, should be around $60k for two years. That seems like a reasonable debt burden considering the salary range reported in the most recent employment report.
I'm curious what type of math background is needed to handle the quantitative component of the program. I had no real math courses in undergrad, just a couple of generic liberal arts math classes. If I accept the offer, I'm going to enroll in a introductory statistics course this summer. Do you think that would suffice? Or is there higher level math like calculus involved?
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Someone in the MSFS thread said their decision was up even though they hadn't gotten an email, so I checked and mine was there too. This was about 30 minutes ago.
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Perhaps I was a bit hasty. Maybe not a full ride, but I would need some significant funding from SIS to make me consider it. Why? If I'm gonna be brutally honest, prestige is an important factor to me, considering my undergrad institution had zero, and I feel that prestige is at least somewhat connected to future opportunities. My perception is similar to yours between the two schools, that they're similar, but it seems to me, based on some of what I've read around here, that Elliott does edge out American in terms of quality of program, alumni, and opportunity, etc., even if only marginally. I just officially got dinged at MSFS a few minutes ago, so it looks like my initial conundrum remains. Also, I'm seriously considering working on my app and reapplying next year. Not quite sure yet.
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The only decision I'm still waiting on (that I care about) is MSFS. But I got dinged at SAIS so MSFS, short of a miracle, is virtually a guaranteed reject. Still haven't heard from SIS, but it would take a full ride for me to even consider it, and that isn't happening.
It's looking like the Elliott ITIP program at sticker price is my only option. Is it worth it? I know some of you have been in a similar (or the exact same) situation. I'd love to hear some opinions on this and/or the ITIP program in general.
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No funding. So...the question of the hour: Is Elliott worth sticker?
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I've emailed them. I'm going to phone tomorrow. Frankly, again not to sound (too) arrogant, but I am shocked to have been rejected. I pretty much tailored the past 18 months to this program so to say I'm bummed would be understatement.
I'm with you. I can't say I'm shocked I didn't get in. My gre scores were pretty terrible, and my math background was practically non-existent, but I had a few really strong elements to my application that I thought would overcome the negatives. I got into International Trade and Investment Policy at Elliott, so that does help ease the pain a little bit, but I had essentially become emotionally involved with getting into SAIS for the last couple years. I'd be lying if I said I'm not super bummed out. I'm interested to know what you hear from SAIS. I may wait a bit to contact them. Their phones are probably getting blown up right now.
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Anyone know if you can pick up a second concentration at Elliott and, if so, what that involves? Now that I've been admitted to International Trade and Investment Policy, I've found myself interested in possibly pursuing Security Policy Studies as well.
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Dinged at SAIS. Anyone know if they provide feedback, if requested?
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Somehow I managed to squeak through. I'm in at International Trade and Investment Policy!
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Anyone know, based on previous cycles, what not being in the first round of decisions portends, if anything? Losing my mind over here.
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Am I the only person on this thread who didn't get anything from SIS? This is *killing* me.
I didn't get anything either. All this is kinda freaking me out a bit. SIS is the lowest ranked/least competitive program I applied to. If I get dinged, that doesn't bode well for the rest of my apps.
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Accepted
Although, didn't hear about funding. I'm guessing it means I won't get any. Did anyone else hear?Still waiting on International Economic Relations. To which program did you apply? I read somewhere on here that SIS wouldn't be releasing decisions until late March/early April?
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It's been said before, but I've waited two months with no problem. As soon as March hits, I'm going crazy!
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Hey, I have a semi-related question that I didn't feel like warranted its own thread, so I'll tack it on here. I know SAIS (and, I presume, other schools) will often admit people contingent upon them completing econ coursework before matriculation. Does the same thing ever happen with mathematics coursework?
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ridofme: Yeah, you're right. I was talking about TESOL. From what I understand, they do 12-month contracts. I appreciate the feedback.
It's tough for me because I'm an unusual applicant, so I have no idea what to reasonably expect with this admissions cycle. I have essentially a self-taught business background, having managed and performed in two different music groups for the better part of ten years, and then two directly IR-relevant internships during college (went to college at 28). I think that the music business/entrepreneurial background coupled with my IR bachelor's and internships gave me an interesting story to tell in my apps.
So the short answer to your question is, no, I don't have any desire to focus on Asia specifically. The overarching goal of graduate school for me is to drastically improve my skills in quantitative analysis. I'd like to work on the comparative analytics side of political risk consulting, not necessarily specialize on a certain region.
Really, other than to get the default "international experience" many top schools are looking for, I see no legitimate reason to do the teach abroad thing. Though if that's what it takes, I suppose I will. As you mentioned before, there's no mommy and daddy to subsidize my experiences. Luckily, I'm not married and I don't have any kids either, but interning overseas for free just isn't in the cards. At least TESOL pays, and a good friend of mine actually came back with some nice savings.
Applying a second time.
in Government Affairs Forum
Posted
I'm curious to hear about your experiences reapplying to these programs: SAIS MA and MSFS. I'm wondering what effect, if any, persistence plays in the readmissions game. I applied to the big four programs in DC a couple years and got dinged at all but one, GWU, but they offered no money, so I passed. But I've been getting that itch again. I can't get it out of my mind.
I understand that improving your application in a meaningful way is the most important factor in reapplying. However, I'm just looking to hear some stories and get back into this.