SymmetryOfImperfection
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Posts posted by SymmetryOfImperfection
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Just now, rising_star said:
Instead of being disappointed, take action. By which I mean, I don't know how/why you've concluded you aren't supposed to know about the existence of the email. Do people in your lab literally *never* talk about any of the emails they receive? If everyone got a copy but me, I would generally just assume it was an accidental oversight, ask someone to forward me the email, and mention it to my advisor at the next one-on-one meeting. (I say this because my advisor could be forgetful and often would accidentally leave people off emails with no malice intended.) If you don't take action, then yes, you will be not be involved in the project as much. So, take action!
I am definitely going to bring this up at the next meeting. I just find it very strange that this happened. I did the bulk of the data collection and analysis for this particular project. People who weren't even on this project were included in the email; I wasn't.
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Just now, fuzzylogician said:
Yes, definitely state explicitly when something is wrong, this is not something that anyone can just guess, even if you think it's obvious (and even if it is, some people just aren't good at interpreting social cues). As I said above, it's good to just have the conversation, and better to do it early, before you get very frustrated and it becomes a bigger deal than it needs to be. If your advisor doesn't even realize that there is a problem, of course it's not going to get fixed. I'd advise you to also think about what kind of feedback you want and at what frequency, because that might come up (and if not, you might want to bring it up). Think of things that your advisor can do that are within what he is actually likely to be able to commit to, so that both of you can be comfortable with the new arrangement.
I just found something that changed the dynamics of the problem. I don't know what I should think at this time:
I was chilling out in my office while my colleagues were reading an email. I asked "hey found any good papers?" and they said "no its just an email from the boss detailing a new direction for the project". I say "hmm I better go read it"... and it is not in my inbox. The topic of the email was very similar to the report that I had just turned in, and it was quite long. Obviously, I should not read email that was not directed to me, so I didn't see much besides the title. I don't think I can do anything since I am not even supposed to know of the existence of this email. Everyone in the group was sent a copy of this email except me.
I am just disappointed that I am being excluded from the project that I am working hard on and producing data for.
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21 hours ago, St Andrews Lynx said:
Does your advisor behave in this way towards the other students & postdocs? If so, then I wouldn't take the non-emailing personally. Fuzzy has covered the main pieces of advice I'd have given.
If the advisor is more responsive to some students in general but not others then there is more of a problem. But every advisor also has to manage their own time and might choose to monitor some projects more closely than others (perhaps if a project is nearing publication, or there is a collaborator involved).
Also, it might not be clear to your advisor that you are wanting feedback, if you are not specifically asking for it. They might be assuming that everything is OK when they receive your project reports.
Thank you for the advice. I did not actually think about the fact that my advisor might think everything is going OK. I sometimes have a hard time communicating my wants and needs clearly, I guess I should make it explicit, such as by saying "Can you give me some feedback on how this project is going?" I try not to take it personally since this is the way he does it, I just wanted feedback on my work - guess I should just say so.
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He has almost never replied to me sending out a research report. Not even an acknowledgement of "OK, thanks" to show that he received it or read it at all. It's been going on for years. I mean, I am sort of used to it by now but it just feels terrible. It's almost as if my advisor has zero interest in my research project and is giving me the absolute minimum in feedback. I sometimes get pumped up on a new idea, design an experiment, run it, analyze the data, it takes a month... and then, I send it out, and absolute radio silence until the next group meeting, which is when the postdocs and 5th years talk.
It's incredibly demotivating sometimes.
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Just now, Familiar Heron said:
It's not typical for students to be kicked out. Period. Echoing Eigen, there is no code word for expulsion for a research group until the PI notifies you directly. Moreover, all that we know is that you broke the equipment and that it's being repaired in-house. This doesn't give us any information regarding cost of the equipment, the potential hazards of your oversight, what protocol was ignored, etc.
What sticks out to me is your paraphrase that the accident was "symptomatic of lack of attention and unsafe lab practice." Do you have any history of unsafe lab practices? If so, have you faced disciplinary action as a consequence of unsafe practice?
There's a few problems with the equipment, once which I knew was my direct responsibility and one which I didn't (and turned out to be the bigger one). There are no direct personal safety issues resulting from my mistake. If my personal mistake was the sole problem, it would've taken half a day to fix. In the course of the repair we found another, even bigger problem which will take an additional 2-3 days and hundreds of dollars to buy parts.
I have never been disciplined for unsafe lab practices before although the professor has noted that my experiments are not always well designed. The professor made these remarks because in the past week alone, 2 other people have made the same mistake I did.
Just now, St Andrews Lynx said:It sounds like - in the eyes of the boss - there's some kind of pattern of behaviour he doesn't like, and the broken piece of equipment is a continuation of that.
The best case scenario is that the meeting will simply be a warning that you should change your behaviour. Most PIs aren't assholes enough to kick you out of the group without giving a formal warning and a chance to rectify.
Some PIs are more willing to kick out students than others. You should have a sense of how your PI operates. Do a lot of students in your lab leave with a Masters degree, or no degree at all? Are there stories of your PI asking people to leave? Under what conditions were they asked to leave? Without knowing the PI we can't tell you what's about to happen.
My advice for the meeting is as follows. If the boss makes a generalisation/statement that doesn't make sense to you (e.g. "your lack of attention is a problem") then politely ask for some recent examples of the concerning behaviour. Listen respectfully to what they're saying. Ask them for advice on how to improve. Keep calm.
Don't make excuses or immediately try to explain/defend yourself if your boss brings up grievance(s). Even if you think what they've said is stupid or a complete misunderstanding (a) it tends to make people angrier when they raise a concern that's legitimate to them...only to have someone else dismiss it (b) it comes across as lacking in empathy and abdicating responsibility. For instance, if the boss says "You broke an expensive piece of equipment" the inflammatory response(s) is: "But it wasn't a major/expensive breakage! We got it fixed in-house. I don't see why this is a big deal" A better response is simply: "Yes. I'm sorry."
Definitely. Thanks for the advice. I will make sure to not argue about it and I do recognize that this mistake was a significant time sink.
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3 hours ago, Eigen said:
It might, it might not.
No way for us to tell you what they're thinking, and there's no universal secret code for getting kicked out of a lab.
Is it typical for students to be kicked out for this type of mistake? I'd think that a quickly repairable equipment mistake wouldn't be a reason to be kicked out but they made it out to be like it was huge.
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I made a mistake with a piece of equipment. The equipment is being successfully repaired (without needing to send it out) right now, but the boss says that this is symptomatic of lack of attention and unsafe lab practice and would like to have an individual discussion with me after he returns from a conference. Does this mean that I'm going to get kicked out?
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Just now, kingslayer said:
Haven't even started grad school yet and I'm already in panic mode. My friend didn't go to college at all, yet she's making more money than I am. She currently the top salesperson at her branch and I'm so happy for her but it also makes me super self conscious about my life and my accomplishments. She's about to move into an actual house with her boyfriend, is happy, will probably end up as a manager and above. I'm just here broke, in massive amounts of debt, boyfriendless, and unsure about what I'm good at. I don't even know if I'll be good at my future job OR if I'll get a job when/if I graduate. Uncertainties are so scary argh
Welcome to grad school and the typical graduate career path.
I have friends that also didn't go to college or majored in an easy A major, making money, getting married and all that. I'm a male though, it's a bit different, but you see high school or college friends talking about their investments, spouses, family vacations, etc, and you're here wondering, what am I doing with my life?
I kind of realized it's not worth it to go nuts over grad school. It is what it is, and it certainly is not supposed to define who you are as a person. If you let it define who you are, you won't like the results.
What helps me is doing chores and cooking. It is very easy to become a research robot and survive on cup noodles, Cheetos and Mt. Dew. Doing chores and cooking reminds me that I am a human being.
Best of luck.
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everything sucks.
only a single experimental variable is reproducible, all other experiments failing.
unable to identify why experiments are failing since intermediate steps seem to be working.
slipping on cleanup.
getting yelled at by the postdoc for slipping on cleanup.
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On 5/21/2016 at 0:18 AM, MarineBluePsy said:
I'm hoping my PhD program is different, but things I found irritating in my Master's program were.....
Students that didn't know the difference between debating and arguing and then ignored subtle or blatant requests from the professor to just shut up.
Students whining about the volume of assignments or reading because of their personal life challenges or choices.
Students not knowing how to do basic things like properly use research databases, paper formatting, etc and then not understand that the research librarians are there to assist them with that, not professors during class time.
Not using spell check.
Being casual instead of professional in emails to students, professors, etc.
Eating something smelly, messy, or loud in class.
Rolling in late and then noisily taking a seat, pulling out a notebook, finding out what's being discussed, etc.
Being that slacker, procrastinator, or otherwise crappy student and then asking to borrow other peoples notes.
What IS the difference between debate and arguing? I'm always respectful to my advisor but he says I argue about my interpretation too often. I thought I was just airing my interpretation and not being pushy.
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Thanks for the tips guys. I spoke with some other members of the group today and it surprisingly went well. We agreed to at least do a lab cleanup and have a designated area for tool/glassware storage that deal with heavy metals.
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19 minutes ago, zipykido said:
Are you working with these materials under a properly vented hood? Also are you wearing a lab coat? Personally I don't work with anything too dangerous but my primary concern would be for me own health. Disruptions to your circadian rhythm can occur for many reasons (including stress from fear of exposure), but you should start monitoring your symptoms immediately if you believe there to be an issue. Your student health plan should include visits to your university's doctors as well as some sort of referral program that may not cost you anything. If you have lab meetings I would bring up the issue there, especially to make sure that everybody in your lab is following proper procedure. Aside from that you could also request a proper ventilation mask when working with the chemical. The last thing a lab or PI wants is a national headline that one of their members got hurt from an issue that was not addressed.
All processing of materials occurs in a closed atmosphere glovebox with an airlock. However, the precursor is transported to the box in powder form. The final films are also cut outside the box with a diamond saw. All waste is stored in a dedicated waste hood. I've been testing myself for other signs of nerve damage but those are supposed to only manifest at acute exposures.
I'm buying some surgery masks today.
Thanks for the tips. I've arranged a visit to the campus doctor and hope my blood tests come back negative.
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I work with very toxic chemicals which serve as precursors for the materials I grow in the lab. In particular, one is a bioaccumulative neurotoxin that causes nerve damage and all other sorts of nasty stuff even at extremely low concentrations. The primary forms that we are exposed to in our lab would be particulates in open air and organometallic coordination complexes in organic solvent.
I have always been extremely paranoid about bioaccumulative neurotoxins, but in the past I've never felt like the research was actually a danger.
Recently though, I've found my behavioral patterns changing involuntarily. I'm beginning to wake up at the slightest exposure to light in the morning, resulting in me waking up at 6 AM instead of my usual 9 AM. This has never happened before in my entire life and it's been persisting for 2 weeks, ever since I started heavily synthesizing my own samples and being in the synthesis side of the lab more. This occurs even if I sleep at 1-2 AM, which indicates to me that something has changed with my neural physiology, and is consistent with chronic exposure to a neuroactive substance.
I've also started to notice a few problems related to storage and post-processing of the precursors and final samples.
The professor and postdoc tell me that if we just follow standard procedure, we'll be OK. But I'm having my doubts that 1. standard procedure is enough and 2. nominal standard procedure is even being followed at all times. However, I also don't want to get my lab shut down.
Here is what I currently do to minimize exposure:
the minute I get home, take off ANY clothes worn to the synthesis lab after a day of synthesis.
shoes left at the door after being wiped in outside grass to minimize particulate transport from lab to home.
change gloves every single time I work with these substances.
never touch anything in the lab without gloves or a piece of Kimwipe paper between me and whatever I'm touching.
wash my hands in an outside bathroom after any time handling the chemical or anything in its proximity.
However, I also do know that others in the lab do not follow these procedures and thus may be contaminating ordinary surfaces with particulates. I would like to bring up chemical safety and minimizing everyone's exposure to dangerous chemicals.
Should I see a doctor about my symptoms? I'm on student insurance right now and I don't know the best way to get help.
What is a good way to bring this up without assigning blame? In the meantime, what personal steps can I take to reduce exposure?
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thanks guys, guess I'm just too nervous...
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I sent an email with an outdated report to my professor. Within a few hours, I sent the updated version of the file before he could reply when I discovered I sent the wrong one. I don't know why but I feel like I'm being annoying by doing this... am I just overreacting? In the back of my head it's really bothering me.
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On 4/9/2016 at 3:10 PM, EvelynD said:
That happend to me twice! One time during a long distance relationship; after I flew halfway across the globe I found out he decided that a longterm thing was not for him. And he decided that,....8 months before I went to visit him, but didn't care to tell me. And I also learned that in some countries making out with other people is not considered cheating if you are drunk whilst you do it. Right,...
The second time happend a couple of weeks ago, just before I decided to go to gradschool in the US. After a couple of months of dating I noticed that the guy kept finding excuses to bail out on dates. I had a vacation planned so I decided to put the drama aside and deal with it after my holiday. He called me a couple of times during and was full of plans for after my return. Guess what,..I never saw him again. It makes you feel really shitty because you feel like you are not worthy of someone's attention. Hopefully you realize soon that if a person treats people like this, the problem lies with them and not with you.
I need to vent about the stress that comes with applying to gradschool in the US. I've only been in this proces for a couple of weeks and eventhough I'm working in a niche I have already found 2 potential schools. I like the good feelings that come with this proces, such as getting positive replies from potential POI's (major ego boost, and everybody is so friendly!), scanning craigslist for potential appartments etc. However, then I read on this forum that my top school is one of the most popular in the country. Or an American friend of mine tells me that in California, schools prefer in-state students above international students. And this makes me really insecure! I have no idea what my 'market value' is so to speak.
And because it takes so much investigation to locate POI's-schools, my head can get really filled with thoughts and sometimes I feel like it is too much. Luckily at such moments I can turn to my hobby: embroidery (guess why I'm single :P).Sorry to hear that, thanks for the encouragmement.. Wish you luck. So here's what I know: California public institutions (not Stanford, USC or Caltech) are hard to get into for their ranking because they indeed prefer in-state students. If you wanted to go to Berkeley or UCLA, you should re-evaluate other choices even if those other choices are ranked higher on paper, just because private schools don't have that quota. It is even more true for anthropology, since there are fewer TA positions. Basically, diversify your risk, increase the spread, so that your expected value of acceptances is above 1. Remember that acceptance rates fluctuate year to year too, so you may be a victim of an unlucky cutoff if you don't apply to a large number of schools just because you had bad luck.
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calculus is not like linear algebra so it isn't a good predictor, IMO.
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got ignored-dumped by the girl I was dating, I don't know why, and I'm pretty disappointed. Grad school is tough sometimes and it'd be nice to have someone to talk to without fear of being judged, someone that cares. I really cared for her too. I really liked hearing her out about her problems, I never ignored her, and I'd just like some equal treatment. I just hate playing the stupid game where you go by a playbook to poke for maximum response, as if people were robots.
I don't consider myself terrible in social situations or an introvert either, I'm not mean, I know when to give people the space they need and I genuinely care for others. I try to stay healthy, fit and clean. I don't do nice things exclusively for girls I date - alot of people in the department knows me as the guy who'd help others out, whether that's giving a tour for newcomers or just being a listener for other people's problems. I'm not putting anyone on a pedastal or putting anyone down.
I'm just not sure why that's not enough to not get dumped in the rudest way. At least give me the courtesy of a real breakup. It gets extremely tiring to be nice, and be hurt for it. I didn't have any problems with my last breakup because we were upfront and honest about the issues, and that's absolutely fine with me. I am not fine with being treated like trash.
This shit's just getting old, on top of pressures with my experimental research.
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avoid lab1 like the plague.
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2 hours ago, St Andrews Lynx said:
With any kind of stress levels it is important to (i) do stuff other than your research & teaching (ii) take care of yourself. Even when you have a lot of stress and limited time it still means taking some time off at the weekends to do other things; eating well; going to the gym (even a 30 min workout in the morning is great for me); perhaps going home to do grading instead of staying in the lab late.
If the one postdoc is part of the problem, maybe you can try and switch to work with someone else? High standards by themselves aren't a bad thing (more on that in a second): but if the postdoc can't give you useful feedback to learn & improve, or is rude towards you...ask to work with someone else. Obviously you need to be careful how you go about this - and be prepared for mediation rather than a transfer - but it seems like the obvious thing to try first.
I think it's important to differentiate between "high" and "impossible" standards. PIs want to publish high-quality papers. A quick way to bring a paper's quality down is through things like messy spectra, badly-designed experiments that don't account for certain variables, etc. In that sense, having high standards about how clean your materials are and how carefully you gather data are really important. And it's something that you need to start taking on board as soon as you arrive. But there also should be some logic as to WHY particular standards are expected. And other group members should be communicating the standards before you collect the data and find you need to re-run it all again. Also, the goalposts shouldn't be continually shifting.
The PhD is all about training you to become a better scientist. But not at the expense of making you miserable and destroying your self-esteem. There's no shame in walking away from a situation that's damaging you.
thanks. i fully understand that high quality papers need high quality graphs to go along with them. problem is, I wasn't given an explicit checklist which I'm used to getting for things that have to be done exactly in one way.
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One thing that I noticed in grad school that has been very annoying is the lack of communication about specific requirements for presentations, posters, papers, etc.
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Just now, TakeruK said:
I'm sorry to hear about this. Honestly, when I saw the thread title, I was expecting to read about "standard" stress levels**, and to respond with good coping strategies. I also think it's not abnormal for people to not finish their PhDs---I think it's typical that 30% to 50% of people starting graduate programs will not finish a PhD in the end (but most will get MS degrees). However, what you are describing here is not normal or typical stress levels and it is not healthy.
Unfortunately, I don't really have good advice on resolving your situation. But, I think it would be a very very good idea for you to speak with mental health providers at your school. Hopefully the ones affiliated with your school's health center are free, or your student health plan covers visits with external providers.
I know there is a lot of stigma with seeing mental health providers, but there shouldn't be! It's incorrect to think that you only see a mental health provider if there is something wrong with you. Instead, think of it more like taking your car for an annual tuneup, your bike for a seasonal tuneup, going to the dentist for a checkup or getting vaccinations/annual checkup at your doctor's office.
I think that a mental health professional visit can be very useful for graduate students and they help us understand our stress better. We learn what causes stress to us and how to manage symptoms of stress. They also provide us with tools to prevent future stress. And, for more pressing situations such as yours, I find that they can help you think about difficult situations and tough decisions you might have to make.
For example, in your situation, I can think of a few things you have to decide:
a. Can you manage the stress you are feeling?
b. Is the cost of managing this stress worth what you will get out of this degree program?
c. If yes, then how will you know when it's no longer worth it? What would you do to continually evaluate whether or not this is something that will still benefit you in the end?
d. If no to "b" above, then what are you willing to do about it? Would you be able to talk to your advisor about their availability? Would you want to speak to the postdoc about the work environment they are creating? Would you be willing to change advisors and groups?
e. If you decide to take one of these actions, who will you get help from? How will you bring up these tough conversation topics? These are hard conversations to have---how will you ensure you get the support you need to clearly express your concerns and needs in a way that the other party understands you and will change?
This is certainly not an exhaustive list and I don't know the answer to them. But just examples of what a mental health professional can talk you through and help you cope with current stressors as well as help you come up with a strategy/plan to prevent future problems. They are a great resource for graduate students and I really hope our community continues to reduce the stigma on seeking mental help and realise that seeking help is not a sign that you are broken, but it's part of keeping ourselves healthy.
(** By "standard", I mean regular amount of occasional stress that is typical for a job similar to ours. I don't mean that being stressed out all the time is a normal healthy grad student lifestyle).
Thank you for the hints. Should I talk to the counselor at my school, or seek outside help?
Can I PM you some things? I'm worried that this environment is unusual, since right now you're saying that it's not what you think is expected. It at least feels alot different than at my old school.
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Multiple people from my cohort have quit or decided to drop after a MS.
The stress level here is absolutely insane. We are to teach (with a huge workload) until we pass oral comps at the least. Some people have been teaching for 5 years. Simultaneously we have to produce research.
The other thing here is that some of the supervisors have limited availability. Mine in particular doesn't seem to be highly interested in my project (that he assigned). This means we are supervised mostly by postdocs in such groups. The postdoc in my group has very high expectations and doesn't tolerate mistakes. The pressure is very high to perform and I can't handle that very well; when I work with the postdoc on projects, I seem to make more mistakes than when I work by myself or with other grad students
Because of this, it is hard staying motivated between a low availability PI who seems disinterested, very tough direct management and other people quitting left and right. Any help?
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On 1/16/2016 at 9:25 PM, onceinalifetime said:
So in general, why do so many people get depressed and drop out? This is really alarming what i'm reading here. I just got my first acceptance to a PhD last week. So I rode that wave of happiness for about a week and now I'm seeing this and getting worried again already lol. And this isn't the only thread/article I've seen with this tone. I've seen many.
1. it's hard work with low pay and long hours.
2. Sometimes you have to do what your professor wants you to do with little independence.
3. Your advisor might not be that interested in your work unless it's exactly what they were thinking of.
Advisor almost never replies to my emails.
in Coursework, Advising, and Exams
Posted
he doesn't mention me by name in the email and there were tips for future directions to take the project in. I know this sounds like I'm making a big deal out of something small, but my gut feeling tells me that this isn't normal in the context of everything else. There's other things too.