anxious over the only grad school offer in US

[Grace Chen]

Hi GradCafe community,  as a 1st post, I'm kinda anxious about the grad school decision.

I applied for a few graduate schools last minute and got just one offer for a 2-year masters at Duke.

While it could have been a good news, I started to have several concerns:

concern 1: I have worked numerous years, but when I go for certain job that I wanted, HR would say it's not the right profile as I don't have an advanced degree, even though I meet the technical skill requirement due to self-learning. This kinda prompted me for a master, but at the same time, 2 years without salary and out of workplace can be a considerable opportunity cost. I understand there're restrictions for international students on f1 visa. Does grad school make financial sense for those in the early 30s?  Besides that, just for continuity's sake, I want to be able to keep working on stuffs, small client projects etc, to keep me in touch with current real-world demand. I wonder would my student visa be too restrictive.

concern 2: I know I wanted to move to US but I didn't do much research on Durham NC beforehand. Now I have some doubt on whether I can get used to suburban living, and to what extent the location would be a disadvantage for job hunting afterwards, given the tightening H1b.

If I'm younger and already located in US, I probably wouldn't worry about this. What's your thoughts? Have you once faced the same doubt and sailed through it? Thanks.

 

 

Edited May 2, 2018 by Grace Chen

[fuzzylogician]

1. The F1 visa doesn't allow students to work. That includes "stuffs, small client projects etc", including if you get paid in another country. Some might tell you that you can work under the table and no one would ever know; I would advise you to be *very* careful and not do anything illegal. A Masters would mean being out of the workforce and not making a salary. Whether it's worth it to you is an entirely personal question. You know precisely what the costs are: you are out of the workforce, you're not making money, you're paying for a degree; in exchange, you hope to be able to apply for other jobs with more career prospects and a better salary once you're done with the degree. Only you can decide if it's worth it to you. 

2. You don't have to apply for jobs in NC just because you studied there. But yes, it's getting harder to get the H1B visa, and it might get even harder. No one here can predict the future. Again, it's up to you to decide if it'd be worth it even if you end up going back to your home country (or a third country). It's a real possibility to keep in mind that you might not be able to get a job in the US post-graduation. 

3. Whether you'll like Durham is yet again something only you can know. For me, it's a nice place, even though it's on the smaller side. But I don't think that really helps you out too much, because you and I are different people. 

[TakeruK]

I'll second what fuzzy said. 

Going to a graduate program in a foreign country is a significant investment and only you will be able to determine whether the costs of doing so is actually worth the benefits you are seeking. Can you find another way to get the same credentials in your own country, perhaps meaning that you won't have to pay so much of the costs (both financial and opportunity due to your inability to work on a F-1 visa).

I will point out one thing that may be useful though. You can apply for and get approval to have OPT (Optional Practical Training) status. There are two types of OPT: "pre-completion" and "post-completion". As their names imply, the former is status you can have while you are still in your degree program and the latter allows you to remain in the USA after your degree program ends to work in the field of your training.

Here is more information about OPT: https://www.uscis.gov/opt

There are a lot of considerations, such as your field of study (STEM fields have longer OPT timelines). However, in terms of continuity of your work, the most interesting part to you may be that after one full academic year, you may apply for pre-completion OPT, which allows you to work up to 20 hours per week when school is in session (no limit when school is on break) in the field of your study. I am not sure if your planned Masters program is in the same field as your small projects etc. but OPT does cover self-employment but it also means a lot more paperwork to register yourself as a business owner etc. If you are interested in this route, definitely talk to your grad school's international office about what you may have to do. But if this works out, it means you can reduce the amount of time you are not in contact with your business world to only 1 year instead of two. 

[ExponentialDecay]

tbh I would not use OPT before graduation. Your school might be okay with arranging CPT with you, which would require them to assign you a credit for the work you're doing, but you wouldn't be using your OPT.

 

[TakeruK]

1 hour ago, ExponentialDecay said:

tbh I would not use OPT before graduation. Your school might be okay with arranging CPT with you, which would require them to assign you a credit for the work you're doing, but you wouldn't be using your OPT.

 

Post-completion OPT is certainly better but pre-completion OPT is worth considering too. I had thought that CPT must be for a required part of the program, but I was on J-1 status so I'm not super familiar with F-1 options. One of the reasons I brought up pre-completion OPT is that for me, I had thought about doing a little bit of pre-completion AT (J-1's version of OPT) for a side teaching job that was only 6 hours per week for a few months. But I didn't know at the time what I would do after graduation so I wanted to save the 3 years of AT for post-completion in case I needed to use it for a postdoc. In the end, I didn't stay in the USA for postdoc, and I could have used a different status anyways. I still think I made the right choice because I was still a few years from graduation and didn't really know what the future held. But someone who is 1 year into a 2 year Masters might already know whether or not they need to keep their OPT for post-completion.

[Grace Chen]

1 hour ago, ExponentialDecay said:

tbh I would not use OPT before graduation. Your school might be okay with arranging CPT with you, which would require them to assign you a credit for the work you're doing, but you wouldn't be using your OPT.

 

Thanks for all your replies.

@ExponentialDecay Out of interest, why would you suggest not using pre-graduation OPT? Does it reduce post-graduation OPT months?

Hypothetically, if I leave US to work during the first year term breaks, am I still bounded by f1 terms? I am more concerned about the continuity of work as compared to getting extra income.

If I intend to work in US post-graduation, what's the time frame that I should get H1B sorted? is it Apr of the 2nd year?

[TakeruK]

2 hours ago, Grace Chen said:

Thanks for all your replies.

@ExponentialDecay Out of interest, why would you suggest not using pre-graduation OPT? Does it reduce post-graduation OPT months?

Hypothetically, if I leave US to work during the first year term breaks, am I still bounded by f1 terms? I am more concerned about the continuity of work as compared to getting extra income.

If I intend to work in US post-graduation, what's the time frame that I should get H1B sorted? is it Apr of the 2nd year?

Just want to say that you should definitely get expert advice from your school's international office before trying anything. We're not experts here, just people with similar experiences.

1. Yes, using pre-graduation OPT takes away from your post-grad OPT eligibility. You get a set amount (12 months, plus some extra time if you are a STEM major) for all OPT, whether it's pre- or post-. It's generally much better to have post-grad OPT so that you can use that time to find more permanent employment and you are able to work many more hours, but like I said above, if you aren't going to be using the post-grad OPT, then you might as well do pre-grad OPT.

2. If you leave the US, then you are no longer on F-1 status. So yes, if you go back home during the breaks, then you can work. However, if you are going back and forth often, you may run into issues if you cannot prove that you only worked while not on F-1 status. Keep very detailed and clear paper trails. Also, I am assuming you are from a country that will allow you to get a multiple entry visa into the USA. For some foreign nationals, you need to apply for a visa for every single entry, so this may not be tenable.

3. You need your employer to sponsor your application for H1-B. So, the first step is to find an employer that is both willing to hire you and sponsor you for H1-B. If you are lucky and/or find a good enough job, your employer may even pay some or all of the fees to get you this visa, otherwise you should be prepared to pay for it. Note that most academic employers, at least in my field, will not sponsor you for H1-B unless you have a permanent position. But it does sound like you are seeking non-academic positions. 

Getting a job with H1-B is no easy feat. The Trump administration have made some changes and proposed others that makes everything more uncertain.

But notwithstanding that, even if you do find an eligible employer willing to sponsor you, the existing challenges were i) there is a limit on the number of H1-B petitions (65,000 plus 20,000 extra for those with advanced degrees) and ii) this limit is usually filled within a few days (this year, the window opened on April 2 and the limit was reached on April 6). See: https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-workers/h-1b-specialty-occupations-and-fashion-models/h-1b-fiscal-year-fy-2019-cap-season ; this year 94,000 applicants applied for 65,000 spots, which means that if you applied after April 6, you will be rejected and if you applied within the open window, you approximately have a 65% chance of getting considered [when there are more applications accepted than the limit, the applications are chosen by lottery to proceed]).

So, it is very unlikely that you would be applying for H1-B status while still in your Masters program. Instead, most foreign students will use their post-grad OPT to find work after graduation. If they graduate in June (for example) and start a job immediately afterwards, then that gives them some time to pass through any probationary period before the company is willing to spend the time and money to sponsor you to apply for a H1-B. However, I'm not quite sure how the timelines work, since the H1-B process takes awhile and your 12 month OPT will run out before then. Maybe there's some parole status or something that allows H1-B applicants to remain working while their applications are being processed. I'm not experienced here, so maybe someone else can speak to this.

If you are somehow eligible for longer OPT (e.g. STEM field) or other visa statuses (e.g. if you are Canadian or Mexican, through NAFTA, you can get TN status) then this is much more likely. If you have some sort of academic position that can count as a research scholar, then you might be able to have J-1 status for your first USA job. All of these things can help you get the time necessary to qualify for and get H1-B, if that's your goal.

[ExponentialDecay]

8 hours ago, TakeruK said:

Post-completion OPT is certainly better but pre-completion OPT is worth considering too. I had thought that CPT must be for a required part of the program, but I was on J-1 status so I'm not super familiar with F-1 options. One of the reasons I brought up pre-completion OPT is that for me, I had thought about doing a little bit of pre-completion AT (J-1's version of OPT) for a side teaching job that was only 6 hours per week for a few months. But I didn't know at the time what I would do after graduation so I wanted to save the 3 years of AT for post-completion in case I needed to use it for a postdoc. In the end, I didn't stay in the USA for postdoc, and I could have used a different status anyways. I still think I made the right choice because I was still a few years from graduation and didn't really know what the future held. But someone who is 1 year into a 2 year Masters might already know whether or not they need to keep their OPT for post-completion.

CPT doesn't have to be required. You just need to receive credits for it. I would also recommend that OP make an independent study of US immigration law/get an immigration lawyer with experience in F1 and H1B in addition to using the services of their school's ISO, because ISO staff vary heavily in quality and I for instance have encountered multiple instances where the ISO gave me or my friends blatantly incorrect information (looking at you, Harvard and MIT). 

Further, if OP wants to stay in the US after graduation and don't have an employer that will ask for an H1B for them in April of their last year of grad school, they will have to rely on OPT.  F1 students receive 60 days grace period after the formal completion of their program of study, after which you must leave the US. And if you think that getting a job that will sponsor H1B is playing on hardmode, finding such a job while out of the country is something extra.

[TakeruK]

27 minutes ago, ExponentialDecay said:

I would also recommend that OP make an independent study of US immigration law/get an immigration lawyer with experience in F1 and H1B in addition to using the services of their school's ISO, because ISO staff vary heavily in quality and I for instance have encountered multiple instances where the ISO gave me or my friends blatantly incorrect information (looking at you, Harvard and MIT). 

Definitely. I have heard the same about those offices. I was very fortunate to have a very good international office experience but even so, a few others with unique situations were not able to get help from the office due to their lack of experience in those specific cases (they were referred to lawyers instead, which is better than giving false info, though!)

[Grace Chen]

Thanks both.

[orange turtle]

On 5/2/2018 at 6:17 AM, Grace Chen said:

...This kinda prompted me for a master, but at the same time, 2 years without salary and out of workplace can be a considerable opportunity cost. I understand there're restrictions for international students on f1 visa. Does grad school make financial sense for those in the early 30s?  Besides that, just for continuity's sake, I want to be able to keep working on stuffs, small client projects etc, to keep me in touch with current real-world demand. I wonder would my student visa be too restrictive...

concern 2: I know I wanted to move to US but I didn't do much research on Durham NC beforehand. Now I have some doubt on whether I can get used to suburban living, and to what extent the location would be a disadvantage for job hunting afterwards, given the tightening H1b.

Speaking as a former international student, I would suggest you look into several other factors you might also want to consider in your decision.

I have no idea which country you are coming from so some of these might not apply.

1) Currency Conversion

I come from a developing country so our currency is dwarfed by the strength of the Canadian (where I did my undergrad, and now doing my PhD) and US Dollar. When I was an undergrad, the exchange fluctuated quite a bit over my time in Canada. This meant that my finances and budget did change quite a bit, too. As a pretend example, I had budgeted spending 30,000 dollars of my home country's money, and ended up spending 35,000. You might want to consider how much the exchange rate is between your country now, how strong is that currency, and can you afford it if there is a change in that conversion rate?

I was on a full scholarship, and I only had to pay living expenses, and it was still very, very hard during those years.

2) Suburban Living Benefits

I, too, went to a suburban university. The benefits of that, financially, might outweigh the possibly slow life. To give an example, I could have bought a decent house in my undergrad university town for about CAD$ 300,000. Where I am right now (also Canada), a simple one-bedroom apartment goes for about CAD$500,000 unless I plan to commute ridiculous distances. Professors who make >= CAD$150,000 are bemoaning how they can't afford a place they can buy. Now imagine what it is like on a student budget.

3) Extra cost

As an additional point to #2 above: I told myself I was willing to live further and just commute to my current university. It became quite obvious that that was a bad idea within a month of starting. I have a neurological condition that is severely affected by fatigue. I.e., the more tired I am, the more likely I will end up in the hospital. About 3 months after starting, I collapsed in the lab while no one was around. My lab partner found me lying on the floor, dazed, and struggling to breathe properly some (she estimates) couple of hours later; I was too out of it to reach for the phone just a couple of feet away. Needless to say, I ended up in the hospital which took a significant amount of time away from work which then had me madly playing catchup.

I bring all this up because you would need to consider how far you can and/or want to commute if you decide you want to go to a university in a big city. The farther from the city you live usually = cheaper rent and cost of living. In a university in a big and expensive city, that might mean commuting for a long time. In a small town university, well, you're away from the city and rents are usually cheaper.

4) Suburban Living Affecting Jobs

From my own experience of a sample size of n=1, I had no trouble.

It doesn't mean you won't, but I suggest you try to not allow that to affect your mindset. My university town was tiny, but I got a job within 2 months of graduation in a major city because I focused on developing strong, usable, transferable skills during my undergrad. I connected with every person I could think of in the university (helps when it is small!), volunteered in the community, did community-based research, and made it a point to get to know Canadian culture, norms, and expectations to strengthen my skills. By the time I graduated, you could throw me into virtually any Canadian community and I would be fine because I could communicate with people of all backgrounds. The professor who hired me ~ 2 months after graduation was so impressed, she paid for my return flight to meet her, her lab, and see the university and city to see if I could see myself working there.

5) Global Affairs

There is a huge contribution of privilege, luck, being in the right place and time, opportunity, and global affairs timing in getting jobs. But what you do and how you do it also plays a role. Sadly, you might also want to consider if your country of origin, ethnicity, and religion might or will play a role in what you do. It's not fair, it's egregious, it's disheartening, but the reality at this point is that it happens. Thus, my comment about privilege and global affairs above.

Keep in the back of your mind also that rules on immigration change repeatedly. I tracked the Canadian Immigration department religiously because I was determined to stay in Canada to work. Many of my friends didn't, and missed out on several things.

For example, in Canada, the government (at that time, anyway) allowed recent graduates from Canadian universities to apply for an open, non-employer tied work permit that is valid for three years. Within that 3 years, if you worked full time in a profession that is considered somewhat professional and skilled (i.e., serving coffee does not count), you qualified to apply for landed immigrant status (some restrictions applied, of course). There was a huge caveat that many didn't know of, however. You could **only** apply for the open permit within 3 months of graduation. You miss that boat, and you are like any other immigrant applying to work in Canada. Which means: 1) you might not get in, and 2) if your employer fired you, you quit, and/or made redundant, you have to leave the country as that permit is tied to your employer.

6) Age

I'm much older than my peers, too. And much of it is because I made sure all the above were in place (e.g., job experience and landed immigrant status) before I went back to school. You might find age a benefit, in fact. You're a little bit, hopefully, more wise emotionally and street-smart as well. My chair even commented he loves mature students as they come in with their head more firmly screwed on and tend to be more focused. It doesn't mean I dont regress to my "less mature" problems every now and then (like worrying incessantly about grades and what my professors will think of me) ?. 
 

So, think about it carefully. If this is what you really want, then plan for these. And then, go wholeheartedly into it with your eyes wide open and make sure to use all the opportunities available to you so that when the opportunity does knock, you are ready. 

Good luck!

[Grace Chen]

@orange turtle You had my respect!