(con't fromother thread) Is age a factor?

[littlenova]

Without bogging down the admissions thread...I wanted to answer John2DC's question about age being a factor in admissions to graduate school....and also add to the conversation I started with Soootired about personal/professional choices at this stage of an artist's career:

@John2DC & Soootired: I never was one to worry about the age thing. I didn't go back to finish undergrad until I was 26. I finished at 28...and applied to grad school at 31. I found out from MICA admissions that their average grad student age is in the early 30s. They actually discourage younger applicants, because she said she feels that most are not really ready for this kind of theoretical study right out of undergrad. I have had MANY younger friends from undergrad drop out of programs because they weren't ready and even more finish but, say they wished they had waited because they will never get to do it again the "right" way.

In the years after school, I bought a house, saved some money, travelled a bit and did a few residencies which helped me edit my work. I am just now starting to get how to balance making art with the rest of the stuff going on in my life. I think waiting until I was ready helped. Someone else I know on the other hand is 45 and applying to school. I wouldn't say there is a cut-off persay, but you have to be realistic about what you want out of an MFA. I would only recommend going back that late if you have had a long, notable career in the arts and maybe you would like to teach or reach that terminal phase of your career.

Edited March 26, 2010 by littlenova

[michaelwebster]

I am 22 and graduated from East Carolina University last may. I decided to take one year off so I could apply to a residency and include all of my senior work in my portfolio. I have met one person that was finishing their senior year at SAIC and had also been accepted to CCA and was interviewing at Calarts. She was 21. Most everyone else was in their late 20s or early 30s.

The only way I was able to do this was I was in a dozen shows and studying art history and theory constantly while I was in high school. I also did alot of open studio classes in undergrad to make what I wanted to make.

I still really really needed a year off for my portfolio. And some of my older work held down my portfolio a little.

I got rejected to CalArts, UCLA, Carnegie Mellon, and Columbia.

I got in to CCA, SAIC, UNC, and UNCG.

I think age and experiences play a huge role in a schools descision, and your work and conceptual skills are usually tied to age.

I was able to get into the schools I interviewed with, so I feel like my ability to talk about the future of my work helped my chances.

Edited March 27, 2010 by michaelwebster

[john2dc]

I completely agree with your analysis from the perspective of someone considering an MFA program. A candidate in his or her 40s or older needs to consider carefully why to get an MFA. But, if someone older has resolved that issue decided to apply then the issue is what barriers if any would he or she would face with school faculty/admissions officers because of age. I don’t think it is insurmountable, and extensive life experience could be a plus if reflected in the artwork, but I think candidates in their 40s and older are not likely to be readily embraced. I have heard of instances where older candidates with otherwise good portfolios were considered too accomplished to benefit from an MFA program. But this is difficult to evaluate. Younger persons submitting the same mature portfolio might justifiably be considered outstanding given their young age. On other other hand, I have known of candidates in their 50's attending very good MFA programs. I am in my 50s and considering an MFA for the critical feedback – after a successful career in a different field entirely. This will be an interesting adventure if nothing else. Congratulations on MICA. great program.

[littlenova]

@michaelwebster: Congrats on your acceptances! I think you're right. Some programs can tell where you are going or see a clear progression in your work and will overlook some inexperience if they spot the talent, consistency, drive, etc.

I think age and experience play a huge role in a school's decision, and your work and conceptual skills are usually tied to age.

I have to agree with this. I think it's hard to have a solidified point of view when you're younger. It's not unheard of...It's just a bit harder. Getting into a good program or getting an MFA is only a starting point, really. When the faculty are gone and graduation is over, there is only one voice that will matter when editing your work. And if you aren't ready, it can be a rude awakening for some. I always say to slow down and follow your own timetable.

What's interesting is everyone has a different path...I have seen people without an MFA rise to art stardom in Miami and I have seen the exact opposite happen where classmates of mine found their focus in grad school---without it, they may have never discovered things about their work or themselves. I think an admissions panel can see intention more than anything else.

@john2dc: You bring up some valid points...First off, I think when you apply to a school...You are right: They look at the whole package in your statement. Age might help or hurt your application depending on the work and the program. If your work was relevant and you had a strong foundation of studio practice and exhibitions, I don't think a program would deny someone based solely on their age. (I have NEVER heard of someone being too accomplished to benefit from an MFA program, either. They would offer them a position to teach or give them an honorary degree or something...This isn't undergrad.)

But, michaelwebster's quote above is spot on. Maybe the question has less to do with age effecting an admissions decision and more to do with age effecting the work. Is age on the side of the applicant? Meaning has the applicant used this time to make work, show and contribute to the art community over the years? Has age assisted the applicant in developing a stronger point of view as an artist? Hopefully the answer is yes. But, sometimes the answer is no...and this field is a bit hard to crack if you are starting over this late in the game.

The same portfolio in the hands of someone younger might yield a more positive result only because they will have more time to develop their craft and grow. Someone who is a bit older would, I believe, be expected to show how they have resolved these issues over the years.

I met a 58 year old filmmaker at my residency who owned a business for most of her life but, had been making films for years. She just went back for her MFA and finished at OCAD. She is amazing...and she had been making art for a long time. This made her such an asset to their program, because she had life experience and artmaking experience. She went right into teaching afterward and just recieved a prestigious grant form the Canadian govt.

It really is case by case.

Always fun to chat. Best of luck to you as you navigate this process!

Edited March 27, 2010 by littlenova

[turnip]

Great topic, littlenova.

(I have NEVER heard of someone being too accomplished to benefit from an MFA program, either. They would offer them a position to teach or give them an honorary degree or something...This isn't undergrad.)

I have friends who graduated Yale Sculpture a few years ago who said that Jessica Stockholder would frequently discard applications that seemed like the person just wanted a pedigree. They want people who need grad-school. They said one person applied who had already shown at the Whitney; they rejected that person.

They also told me about a guy who applied to Yale 4 years in a row before he got accepted. Yes 4 years. He is now the most successful out of their classmates - sold out shows in NY.

I'm approaching 29 - and may be (re)applying to grad school next year, unless I decide to have another child instead.

So here is another spin on the age topic: children. Are there any other parents out there? If I were to have gotten in to school this year, my husband would have left his job to take care of our son while I was in class and work nights somewhere. (We have an alternate schedule - meaning our son is always with one of us while the other is at work - and it works for us really well for us.)

Same friends who went to Yale said there were several people with kids in school there and mentioned how great it was to have little kids running around during crits. Sounds dreamy to me.

Back to age, I really want another child and I just don't know which way is best to work it. Have another baby and go to school in a few years, or go to school and have another baby in a few years. ??? I know I'm the only one who can answer this question....and I honestly think my answer is to live life and let things unfold how they will.

I'm wondering what others have done/ are planning to do.

[littlenova]

@Turnip: Interesting stuff about Yale denying admission to an accomplished artist! I wonder why they would do that, I mean...What if someone successful wanted to teach? Why wouldn't they want that experience in their program? Oh, to be a fly on the wall in that admissions panel!

I am glad you brought up children. My husband and I both just turned 32 this month and I will be in graduate school while he is working towards his PhD and working for the government. We are financially blessed in that we both had a chance to save money for grad school and both of us were offered aid to attend. But, where money hasn't been an obstacle----time has. I will be almost 35 when I graduate and really would like to have a child while I am in school.

My program is only 6 weeks over the summer with an option to TA part-time during the year while I make work. It's the perfect set up, because I will be home alot. My husband also gets about 5 weeks paid vacation and works from home on Fridays (4 day work weeks). So, I feel like this is just a great opportunity to spend time with a child. I think women have unique challenges when it comes to their careers at times, but it's getting alot easier. I have been so career driven, though, and I am becoming mindful that having a personal life is equally important.

It's definitely a juggle, but it can be done. You are younger than me, though! You've got some time on your side.

Edited March 27, 2010 by littlenova

[turnip]

My husband is also a government employee (state).

That is the wonderful thing about the low-res programs (as far as balancing families are concerned), and definitely why I was day dreaming about Bard. I am torn though b/c since my h is willing to relocate, I feel like I should take advantage of that and go to a full 2 yr program.

I think I will probably apply to both types next year and let fate decide.

I will say having a child is a lot of work and it takes time to learn how to balance, but I have been way more productive with my time since being a mother. Like anything else, the more you have to do, the more you get done.

best of luck as you work out your work/school/family life.

[turnip]

I think admissions are mostly on work, so this might not matter.

But, in preparing myself for applying, I struggled with whether or not to mention being a parent. I ended up working it in there and I wonder if that had any affect on my rejections.

This is a short quote from my statement:

As a work progresses, my approach becomes much closer to that of my parenting style: intuitive, responding with sensitivity, providing consistency and balance, as well as embracing the sundry ways ideas can manifest.

[littlenova]

@turnip: You should look into MICA, too. Many of the summer faculty came from Columbia and Bard. Bard is great, but I really think MICA is just alot more established as a program. There are three Top 5 programs on one campus and having that kind of a community is just so inspiring. Also, your husband might be able to find work here if he is cleared already. My husband works in R & D for intelligence and he loves it...

*Just a friendly plug before you pick your schools for next year...

[soootired]

Hi all (hi john2dc, happy belated bday littlenova)!

So many perspectives! Thanks for continuing this:

Let me clarify to all. I am not saying that the artist can not be successful on his/her own at a certain age, or not find representation; this is specifically in the context of graduate program admission.

Was discussing this with a friend of mine during her first semester at grad school. She is 36 and was admitted at 34. I’m 32. She went local (4 hr drive) because she has a 5yo, husband, and a home. During her app process she discovered that there was somewhat of an issue at some of the schools. It wasn’t official, just person to person.

I’d never focused on that until something caught my eye in a brochure that I sent for last year (don’t want to mention the school because I haven’t found it yet, and don’t like putting things out there without evidence). It concerned me, but at the same time made sense. The way that I see it is: It depends on the goals of the school.

A school focusing on traditional/craft may not want the same max. age that a school competing for young entrants to art fairs/new artist lists would. The more traditional may feel that older students have more to offer in terms of experience and stability. From the MFA grad students that I have met, I would definitely say that the most dedicated were older. They socialized, weren’t afraid to push boundaries, etc., but were very “together” human beings. No drama, no hangovers, just work. The standout was nearly 60 years old, published in Sculpture mag in 2008, went on the MICA summer trip, got raves in columns, and has exhibits consistently; he also had a pro career before earning his MFA. To michaelwebster, I’m not leaving you out because one of the most dedicated artists that I have met was also the youngest! (to be cont’d 1/2)

[soootired]

(cont’d 2/2) My mother is a painter, who got back into the professional practice in her late 50s (now early 70s), so ABSOLUTELY I believe that it is possible to have fresh ideas and potential to offer the art world. She continually gets shows and invites and just got published in a collection last year. However, I worry that it is a foot in the door situation: meeting in person + portfolio might work, but age on paper might not float.

Possible concerns of schools:

1) promoting phenoms; “Best under 30” lists; it pays to exceed expectations for your age because you have longer to develop and produce, and be somewhat of a darling in the meanwhile.

2) As I learned from a former boss who was pres of a Young Entrepreneur’s org at 40, you are still considered young at 40(ish) in business and careers with long-term goals (lengthy training, mastery, degree plans are considered), so accepting early 30-somethings, may ensure that you graduate an emerging artist under 40 in time to be under that umbrella.

Example: Accept 30-something into three-year program:

31 + 3 = 34 at grad.

34 + 2 = 36 after putzing around/discovering/getting job/body of work

36 + 4 = 40 having dedicated showings for about 4 years as a young artist

Get it, but don't like it. Fortunately, most programs don't appear to work that way and seem to choose according to potential/portfolio. People don't match up to their ages the way that they used to, so it's not so easy to forecast viability. Dunno, what do you guys think?

I love this forum; I always laugh when casual acquaintances remark that artists have it “so easy”. Ha! Try being creative + professional + accountant + philosopher + researcher + concise. Yeah, that equals artist.

[soootired]

I am in my 50s and considering an MFA for the critical feedback – after a successful career in a different field entirely.

@john2dc:

You know, making a transition into MFA from another field can be a very good thing in applying. Your career as an artist is usually considered from the point at which they consider you to have begun "training" or having serious interest in art. I have dual degrees (one in a different field) and am always asked about the other and how I might like to explore it in terms of my work. Integration of ideas or techniques from something else can definitely work in your favor. Good luck, sounds interesting!

[heyoo]

What is the average age for the people who get into mfa programs. Does it really matter how old they are I was just curious.