Indiana: need advice!

[arka]

As I've posted before, I was offered admission to Indiana Bloomington to study political philosophy/theory there. Yesterday I got back from my visit to the campus, which went fairly well. They are offering me a great financial package (full tuition coverage plus yearly stipend) for 5 years. William Scheuerman, Aurelian Craiutu, and William Rasch (in Germanic Studies, where I'll be doing my outside minor) are all widely published and respected scholars, and all were very forthcoming about their wish to work with me. Jeffrey Isaac, who is the current editor of Perspectives on Politics, told me there would be an opportunity to work on the editorial staff in the future, as well as that he would like to have me as a student. So I have little doubt that intellectually, I'd find myself in a good place there.

What I'm more worried about is the competitiveness of the program, specifically when it comes to placing students of political philosophy. Historically, the subfield has not been emphasized there, although it does seem like in recent years they are making a concerted effort to change that (such as hiring Scheuerman a few years ago.) I was told that financial cuts will prevent them from hiring any junior faculty in the subfield for the next few years. The faculty and the grad students I spoke to were also all fairly straightforward about the TOUGH job market (especially for those having political philosophy as their first field, as one student told me). Their recent placements in the subfield were at places like Colorado State, Denver University, University of Illinois at Urbana, Kalamazoo, Butler, and Grinnell--all mid-low ranked places. And with the state of the job market today, I wouldn't be guaranteed to get even that far when having to compete with currently unemployed grads from Berkeley or Chicago.

This is the only program I have a concrete offer from. As far as I see it, the pros of the situation are that I'd be in an academic environment where I could grow intellectually and would get the attention and support of some very high quality scholars. Furthermore, the strength of the department in comparative politics would allow me to get a good education in a subfield that I know little about now, and that could potentially set me apart from other theorists when interviewing for jobs. And overall, the department has a reputation as a solid program, usually ranked 20-25 and that could increase since Elinor Ostrom won the Nobel Prize in economics last year.

But I still can't shake the feeling of uncertainty in my mind about this. This is my second time around applying for Ph.D. programs and I don't want to go through the process again. My choices are either to take up the offer or give up the prospects of academia in general. And right now, I don't know what to do.

[tourist]

So are you asking whether you should get your PhD from Indiana specifically or whether you should get your PhD in general? It's a tough market for everyone out there, and to think of Indiana in lesser terms than say a Harvard or a Princeton probably won't help you at all. Because to assume that in a stiff competition between 2 or 3 equally qualified candidates, the one from an Ivy or a "top 10" will get the job over the others is faulty. That's what it sounds like and you seem to be disappointed that you didn't get into one. I think we're all disappointed about our rejections. Would you be feeling more confident about your job prospects in 5+ years had you gotten accepted to one? Don't mean to sound like an asshole, but you're asking for advice and being vague. The fact that IU isn't an Ivy or "top 10" seems to trump all the good things you've written about it.

Edited March 27, 2010 by tourist

[Penelope Higgins]

Go to Indiana, do really well for your MA, and then consider your options. You can choose to apply to transfer at that point, and can get letters from faculty who can talk about your performance as a grad student. Yes, you will have to repeat some classes after the transfer, and potentially re-take comps, but since you have funding at IU and will presumably have funding wherever you end up, you are not losing any money. At my program, we regularly see students leave for higher-ranked places, and regularly accept students from elsewhere. Outside the top 15 departments or so, this is a more than reasonable approach.

As I've posted before, I was offered admission to Indiana Bloomington to study political philosophy/theory there. Yesterday I got back from my visit to the campus, which went fairly well. They are offering me a great financial package (full tuition coverage plus yearly stipend) for 5 years. William Scheuerman, Aurelian Craiutu, and William Rasch (in Germanic Studies, where I'll be doing my outside minor) are all widely published and respected scholars, and all were very forthcoming about their wish to work with me. Jeffrey Isaac, who is the current editor of Perspectives on Politics, told me there would be an opportunity to work on the editorial staff in the future, as well as that he would like to have me as a student. So I have little doubt that intellectually, I'd find myself in a good place there.

What I'm more worried about is the competitiveness of the program, specifically when it comes to placing students of political philosophy. Historically, the subfield has not been emphasized there, although it does seem like in recent years they are making a concerted effort to change that (such as hiring Scheuerman a few years ago.) I was told that financial cuts will prevent them from hiring any junior faculty in the subfield for the next few years. The faculty and the grad students I spoke to were also all fairly straightforward about the TOUGH job market (especially for those having political philosophy as their first field, as one student told me). Their recent placements in the subfield were at places like Colorado State, Denver University, University of Illinois at Urbana, Kalamazoo, Butler, and Grinnell--all mid-low ranked places. And with the state of the job market today, I wouldn't be guaranteed to get even that far when having to compete with currently unemployed grads from Berkeley or Chicago.

This is the only program I have a concrete offer from. As far as I see it, the pros of the situation are that I'd be in an academic environment where I could grow intellectually and would get the attention and support of some very high quality scholars. Furthermore, the strength of the department in comparative politics would allow me to get a good education in a subfield that I know little about now, and that could potentially set me apart from other theorists when interviewing for jobs. And overall, the department has a reputation as a solid program, usually ranked 20-25 and that could increase since Elinor Ostrom won the Nobel Prize in economics last year.

But I still can't shake the feeling of uncertainty in my mind about this. This is my second time around applying for Ph.D. programs and I don't want to go through the process again. My choices are either to take up the offer or give up the prospects of academia in general. And right now, I don't know what to do.

[arka]

So are you asking whether you should get your PhD from Indiana specifically or whether you should get your PhD in general? It's a tough market for everyone out there, and to think of Indiana in lesser terms than say a Harvard or a Princeton probably won't help you at all. Because to assume that in a stiff competition between 2 or 3 equally qualified candidates, the one from an Ivy or a "top 10" will get the job over the others is faulty. That's what it sounds like and you seem to be disappointed that you didn't get into one. I think we're all disappointed about our rejections. Would you be feeling more confident about your job prospects in 5+ years had you gotten accepted to one? Don't mean to sound like an asshole, but you're asking for advice and being vague. The fact that IU isn't an Ivy or "top 10" seems to trump all the good things you've written about it.

Sorry if it sounds vague. What I meant is that I'm not sure whether it is worth getting a PhD in general if it is not from an Ivy or a highly renowned institution. You're right in that I'm assuming Ivy grads get preferential treatment during job searches, which goes along with mostly everything I've heard from being in the field so far (and on this forum.) And yeah, I think I would have been feeling more confident about my future job prospects. But if I'm wrong, then please tell me how.

Go to Indiana, do really well for your MA, and then consider your options. You can choose to apply to transfer at that point, and can get letters from faculty who can talk about your performance as a grad student. Yes, you will have to repeat some classes after the transfer, and potentially re-take comps, but since you have funding at IU and will presumably have funding wherever you end up, you are not losing any money. At my program, we regularly see students leave for higher-ranked places, and regularly accept students from elsewhere. Outside the top 15 departments or so, this is a more than reasonable approach.

I already have an MA in the field from the New School for Social Research. Going to IU would mean having to re-take some basic courses but also potentially transferring a number of credits from my previous graduate work. I'm not sure transferring from there with a second MA in hand would make my application look any more appealing.

[tourist]

Sorry if it sounds vague. What I meant is that I'm not sure whether it is worth getting a PhD in general if it is not from an Ivy or a highly renowned institution. You're right in that I'm assuming Ivy grads get preferential treatment during job searches, which goes along with mostly everything I've heard from being in the field so far (and on this forum.) And yeah, I think I would have been feeling more confident about my future job prospects. But if I'm wrong, then please tell me how.

Then don't go to Indiana. See what you can do with your waitlists. And then your job will be assured, while most of us bottom feeders will be struggling under the weight of our non-distinguished program burdens . Pretty simple. Good luck! (In all honesty, it's your choice and you know best. Asking it on this forum and reading other people's opinions shouldn't matter one bit.) Cheers.

[Penelope Higgins]

Ah, I didn't catch that part. Then my advice is irrelevant. My apologies.

The department has been honest with you about its situation, and about the prospects for the job market based on the performance of past students. You have to ask yourself whether you would be happy with a job at one of the places listed in your post above. The only alternative, as you stated, is to take a different career path than academia. We can't advise you on how to make that choice, but you have all the information from IU that you need in order to make it on your own.

The only thing I would say is that if the schools you list are really a reflection of the department's placement record, that is a much better list than you characterized it: UIUC is a very strong research department, Colorado State and Denver also have PhD program, and Grinnell has great students and gives faculty real opportunities for research. That is, especially if those are theory placements as you suggest, a pretty strong record. So I think you're seeing the glass as a bit emptier than it really is.

I already have an MA in the field from the New School for Social Research. Going to IU would mean having to re-take some basic courses but also potentially transferring a number of credits from my previous graduate work. I'm not sure transferring from there with a second MA in hand would make my application look any more appealing.

[plisar]

Penelope is right, again, of course. Those placements are quite good. I'd be quite happy with a placement at any of the places you listed.

[gsams]

I am doing my undergrad at IU. We are well-ranked and have some excellent talent here, for sure, but I think if I was in theory, I would look elsewhere. I also chose an "unranked" for my PhD, but there placements are EXCELLENT - OSU has been the most recent, for example, but many are top 20 placements and currently 100% placement rate for students. If you were in comparatives (my specialty) or American, I would encourage you to take IU up. I am not saying that the faculty in theory isn't good, but comparatives and am pol dominate. The majority of opportunities seem to go to those two fields.

[Wesson]

FWIW, I just looked, and UIUC has two political theory faculty, neither with a Ph.D. from Indiana. Also, I'm not sure IU cracks many top-25 lists any more. They used to, but that was some time ago. That said, if you feel good about the people with whom you'd be working, and you're o.k. with the nature of the job market (i.e., that your IU Ph.D. presumably won't be getting you hired at a top-10 program), then I'd say go for it.

[a fragrant plant]

(i.e., that your IU Ph.D. presumably won't be getting you hired at a top-10 program),

Is this a bit too arbitrary? Surely rank matters, but it's not uncommon for people in social science who graduated from lower rank universities such as the UCSC, UCI or the University of Arizona be hired at big name universities. If you think the department at IU has potential to make you grow as a scholar and they offer you generous funding, I'll go. Whether or not you'll be hired at a top-10 program depends on a lot of factors: your ability, the trend/focus in your field by the time you're on the job market, and luck.

[Wesson]

Too arbitrary? In truth, I think not. I wrote that a Ph.D. in political theory from IU "presumably won't be getting you hired at a top-10 program," and I think that presumption is correct. Is it possible for it to work out otherwise? Sure, but it isn't very likely. First, in general, very few people with a Ph.D. from a non-top 25 program are hired, especially for their first jobs, at top-10 programs. It happens, but it's uncommon. Second, political theory in particular is a buyer's market, has been one for a long time, and looks to be one into the future. That said, the vast majority of scholars work outside of the top 10, and it appears to me that one could receive excellent training in political theory at IU, so I wouldn't be hesitant to go there.

[arka]

thanks for all the responses. I also checked the UIUC website and noticed they didn't have anyone from IU teaching there now, so maybe the person has moved on elsewhere?

What rankings do people look at for grad programs in political science (or specifically political theory)? I've just seen the US News ones, but I've read somewhere on this forum that they aren't accurate. Is there a better survey to look at?

[interista]

thanks for all the responses. I also checked the UIUC website and noticed they didn't have anyone from IU teaching there now, so maybe the person has moved on elsewhere?

What rankings do people look at for grad programs in political science (or specifically political theory)? I've just seen the US News ones, but I've read somewhere on this forum that they aren't accurate. Is there a better survey to look at?

http://www.calpoly.edu/~mmoore02/APSA%20Paper%20Conference%20Final%20%28D1%29.pdf

go to page 13

[arka]

http://www.calpoly.edu/~mmoore02/APSA%20Paper%20Conference%20Final%20%28D1%29.pdf

go to page 13

yeah, I have seen this one as well. I'm surprised that NYU was ranked that high, since they are generally not known for political theory. Also surprising to see Cambridge that low.

[StudentForever]

As I've posted before, I was offered admission to Indiana Bloomington to study political philosophy/theory there. Yesterday I got back from my visit to the campus, which went fairly well. They are offering me a great financial package (full tuition coverage plus yearly stipend) for 5 years. William Scheuerman, Aurelian Craiutu, and William Rasch (in Germanic Studies, where I'll be doing my outside minor) are all widely published and respected scholars, and all were very forthcoming about their wish to work with me. Jeffrey Isaac, who is the current editor of Perspectives on Politics, told me there would be an opportunity to work on the editorial staff in the future, as well as that he would like to have me as a student. So I have little doubt that intellectually, I'd find myself in a good place there.

What I'm more worried about is the competitiveness of the program, specifically when it comes to placing students of political philosophy. Historically, the subfield has not been emphasized there, although it does seem like in recent years they are making a concerted effort to change that (such as hiring Scheuerman a few years ago.) I was told that financial cuts will prevent them from hiring any junior faculty in the subfield for the next few years. The faculty and the grad students I spoke to were also all fairly straightforward about the TOUGH job market (especially for those having political philosophy as their first field, as one student told me). Their recent placements in the subfield were at places like Colorado State, Denver University, University of Illinois at Urbana, Kalamazoo, Butler, and Grinnell--all mid-low ranked places. And with the state of the job market today, I wouldn't be guaranteed to get even that far when having to compete with currently unemployed grads from Berkeley or Chicago.

This is the only program I have a concrete offer from. As far as I see it, the pros of the situation are that I'd be in an academic environment where I could grow intellectually and would get the attention and support of some very high quality scholars. Furthermore, the strength of the department in comparative politics would allow me to get a good education in a subfield that I know little about now, and that could potentially set me apart from other theorists when interviewing for jobs. And overall, the department has a reputation as a solid program, usually ranked 20-25 and that could increase since Elinor Ostrom won the Nobel Prize in economics last year.

But I still can't shake the feeling of uncertainty in my mind about this. This is my second time around applying for Ph.D. programs and I don't want to go through the process again. My choices are either to take up the offer or give up the prospects of academia in general. And right now, I don't know what to do.

I know it's too late for this post, but a notice to everyone else. Professors (including DGSs) read GradCafe. Giving out so much identifying information is not the best idea. Even though you've already heard from these schools, you need to remember you're making friends/enemies with people you'll work with and run into at conferences for the rest of your career. Basically, my advice is to be as concise as possible and give away as little information about yourself and your situation as possible.