Law School Drop-Out

[El Chicano]

Hey Everyone,

Last November I dropped out of a top 20 law program, right before finishing my first semester. There were many reasons why I chose to leave law school, but the most powerful was that I found the professional culture of law unappealling and the work unstimulating. I am now considering entering an M.A. program in U.S. Labor History or Mexican History, with the goal of moving on to the P.h.D.

I guess you could say that I am still in mourning over my break with that path. I know in my heart that it was the right decision for me, but I still can't help doubting myself. In fact, I am nagged by what happened every day.

So I was hoping that maybe this thread could generate some therapeutic discussion about issues stemming from a career in the legal field.

Thanks,

E.C.

[BCHistory]

I can certainly understand your situation. I, too, attended law school for one semester.

What began as misgivings earlier in the semester turned into a full rejection of my initial plan of studying to become an attorney. I also shared the same feelings you had regarding the legal profession. I felt law school was an intellectually sterile environment.

At first, I also "mourned" my break with a goal that I had pursued for several years, but at the end of the day, I realized how much happier I would be pursuing something that I actually enjoyed researching (history).

[El Chicano]

BCEmory08,

Thank you for sharing your story. It feels great to know that I am not the only one!

Since leaving there is literally no one I have been able to talk to about this. People who've never been to law school have no idea what it's really like, and current law students, as well as lawyers, won't listen to any criticism, for obvious reasons.

It's also great to hear that you've been able to move on. I have hope that I will too, but I also know that it will take some time.

Just out of curiosity, what are your specific areas of interest in U.S. History?

Thanks,

E.C.

[Daniar]

Hello everyone,

I am in a similar situation. At the moment I study law in the second semester. But I have lost all interest and motivation in it. Unlike you, I study law in Denmark, where things are a bit different. When you want to become a lawyer you enter "law school" straight after high school, which is what I did. And then you study law there for 5 years. When I had just graduated from high school I had to choose between law or history. In school I have always been good in history and that was where I initially had my interest. But for certain reasons I decided to go with law. It was something completely new and I thought that it would be a perfect combination for me. In the first semester I really enjoyed it even though I was not very good at it (learning to think "legal" is hard). My grades for the first semester were quite average, but at least better than what most people received. In the following semester I became better and received better response on my assignments. But I really began to lose the interest in it. And after some time I found myself reading history when I was supposed to read law. So now I am going to make one of the hardest (or maybe easiest?) decisions.

I love everything about history, and I am quite sure that this is the right path for me. But I agree with you guys. When you have striven to become a lawyer for several years, and you suddenly realize that it does not interest you at all, then it is very hard to drop that idea and move into a new field. Some of my friends and family say that I should simly follow my heart, while others (especially family members) don't quite understand it and indirectly suggests that I should "just" finish it (and then afterwards do what I want... ).

But I have already applied for the B.A. History study. In less than a month I make the final decision (but honestly I already know it in advance)

Like you, I would like to pursue a career within history. Of course it would be wonderful to get to work with research. But for me that lies many years ahead.

I wish everyone good luck with their lives

[El Chicano]

Daniar,

It takes a lot of courage to make such an unpopular decision.

It seems that one of the main similarities between your experience and mine is strong familial pressure to becoming a lawyer. They obviously mean well, but I am guessing that most of them are basing their advice on totally unrealistic depictions of the legal profession in the media. In the US, at least, it's been elevated to a status well above what it actually deserves. Very few people outside of the legal profession realize that the majority of lawyers aren't wealthy, and that the work isn't particularly glamorous, either in content or in practice.

I was aslo very suprised to find that lawyers aren't necessarilly intellectuals. Unfortunately, the stereotype about them as "wheelers and dealers" pretty much sums up what they do.

Good luck to you, too, Daniar.

E.C.

[Daniar]

I suppose that the general idea about the legal profession is not any different here in Denmark, or anywhere else in Europe. Obviously, there are differences between the profession in the U.S. and in Denmark.

But generally, most ordinary people have their knowledge of lawyers from the media. And this portrayal is obviously very unrealistic. Ironically, many Danes (or Europeans in general, I suppose) have the basic idea of attorneys from American television shows.

Another thing I also considered was that when you begin the law study, then everyone suddenly sees you as the lawyer of the family. During the full 2 semesters I have been bombarded with legal questions.

At first it makes you feel great, but after a while it becomes annoying. And the way people suddenly change their attitude towards you is also very worrying.

As you perfectly stated, the majority of lawyers are not wealthy, and the "romantic" view on the work of a lawyer does not stand (in my opinion).

E.C., when do you have to apply for the M.A. program? And are you more certain which program you wish to follow?

[smd76]

Well, I finished law school, but never took the bar--taking that stand against the pressure of friends and family was one of the hardest things I've done. I knew half way through that I didn't want to practice law and my judicial clerkship just confirmed it. (EVERY lawyer I met wished they had done something else. My favorite was the local small-town prosecutor: "I should have gone to dental school!") But I finished and lucked out by getting into one of the biggie online legal research companies and getting myself a nice little niche job in the company after a couple of years.

I've managed to stay employed in non-legal jobs that still require a JD. But now I'm aiming in a new direction. It's a big leap, but if it works, I'll be able to be in the academic world I love full time, and be able to support my family doing something that doesn't seem as mindless as sitting in a cubical all day for 30 years. My job now is fine, not fulfilling, but fine. Ok money and I can support my son and I. And the hours are way better than practicing law which works well with a family.

And the best part is...the field I'm aiming at is super short of PhDs to teach. So if I can pull it off, I can double my income and actually pay off law school some day. :-D

I agree that law school/lawyers are glamorized. I enjoyed school itself, but practicing law is NOT something I could do and be happy for several reasons.

So I'm going to lump myself in with the drop-outs.

[El Chicano]

To Daniar:

Sorry about not replying earlier, but I've been having some trouble with my account.

In answer to your question, I don't have to apply until this upcoming fall. However, instead of going back to school right away, I am actually going to Europe to teach English for a year. And depending on how I like it, I want to go to Latin America afterwards.

Also, I know my profile suggests that I want to teach at the University level, but I am actually divided right now about whether or not the high school level is a better fit. One of the main reasons high school is looking so attractive is the bleak state of American academia. In my situation, money is paramount, so we'll see.

What about you? Are you set on the university level?

E.C.

[El Chicano]

smd76,

Thanks for sharing your story, and for the show of solidarity.

In the interest of catharsis, could you elaborate on the reasons why you felt you did not want practice law?

In my story, I did not feel that I could effect the social change I wanted as a lawyer. Your point about spending 30 years in a cubicle definitely struck a chord in that respect.

Thank you,

E.C.

Well, I finished law school, but never took the bar--taking that stand against the pressure of friends and family was one of the hardest things I've done. I knew half way through that I didn't want to practice law and my judicial clerkship just confirmed it. (EVERY lawyer I met wished they had done something else. My favorite was the local small-town prosecutor: "I should have gone to dental school!") But I finished and lucked out by getting into one of the biggie online legal research companies and getting myself a nice little niche job in the company after a couple of years.

I've managed to stay employed in non-legal jobs that still require a JD. But now I'm aiming in a new direction. It's a big leap, but if it works, I'll be able to be in the academic world I love full time, and be able to support my family doing something that doesn't seem as mindless as sitting in a cubical all day for 30 years. My job now is fine, not fulfilling, but fine. Ok money and I can support my son and I. And the hours are way better than practicing law which works well with a family.

And the best part is...the field I'm aiming at is super short of PhDs to teach. So if I can pull it off, I can double my income and actually pay off law school some day. :-D

I agree that law school/lawyers are glamorized. I enjoyed school itself, but practicing law is NOT something I could do and be happy for several reasons.

So I'm going to lump myself in with the drop-outs.

[smd76]

smd76,

Thanks for sharing your story, and for the show of solidarity.

In the interest of catharsis, could you elaborate on the reasons why you felt you did not want practice law?

In my story, I did not feel that I could effect the social change I wanted as a lawyer. Your point about spending 30 years in a cubicle definitely struck a chord in that respect.

Thank you,

E.C.

My reasons aren't terribly exciting. I knew that I really wasn't interested in anything particularly adversarial, but always figured there was a paper-pushing branch I could get into if I had to. Ultimately, I hoped to work for a few years and then get an LLM and teach or something like that. But I graduated shortly after 9/11 and there were no jobs out there really other than really low paying public defender positions. (I know the economy is worse now, but at that time it seemed pretty bad!) I got a clerkship instead in a small town and got to see a condensed version of how things work. What I saw was that everything was based on meth. In that picturesque tiny little town, everything was somehow tied back to it. I saw the public defenders having their official hours cut because of funding, but having to take on a higher case-load. So to make ends meet, they'd be taking a few private clients on the side (meth defendants or nasty divorces)--hoping that they could pay their legal fees. I saw the attorneys working for people who were angry, disrespectful, hurtful, threatening and entitled. The attorneys I met on both sides of the aisle didn't enjoy what they were doing. They represented their clients appropriately, but when they found out I didn't intend to take the bar exam, the reactions ranged from congratulatory to jealous that I'd gotten out while I could. Don't get me wrong...I really enjoyed law school. After the first year, it wasn't particularly difficult. (First year is evil!) And my clerkship was the cushiest job I ever had. I got to do more than most of the clerks in bigger cities just because there wasn't a huge staff or caseload---they didn't need to keep me locked away in my office. I wrote opinions, I sat in on every trial we had, I got to judge high school kids doing moot court, I taught a "law unit" to a group of local nursing students. It was great. But I didn't want to be sitting at the attorney's tables.

I really didn't want to feed my family based on other people's problems. And the career of constant pressure just wasn't what I wanted long term. I had hopes of having a child in a few years and I didn't want to work 70 hrs a week and have the babysitter raise him.

I probably shouldn't have ever gone to law school. But I don't feel like it was wasted time. I honed my analytical, research, and writing skills. And it's given me a leg-up in my current career. Because of my degree, I got my foot in the door where I'm at. And now I have a hard-to-explain-but-they-seem-to-think-I'm-vital niche job. Was it worth the cost? Maybe. I don't regret it though. I refuse to do regrets. Everything we do builds off of our past. It all contributes to who we are. Without law school, I can't even picture where I'd be right now. But I haven't ever for one minute regretted the fact that I didn't take the bar exam.

You said catharsis right? Hence the novel!!!

Oh! And the cool thing is that once I got the job where I am, the whole building is full of lawyers who don't want to be lawyers--hundreds of them tucked away in random departments! For the first time since I'd made that tough decision, I was with people that understood that practicing law is not always the best choice. It's nice not to have to explain myself. Seriously...the decision not to take the bar was almost as hard as the decision to get divorced. MAJOR stress/pressure/etc.

Good for you for realizing and redirecting early on. I can only imagine how tough that must have been.

[coyabean]

I took the LSAT and registered for the LSAC long before I ever even entertained my current PhD route. Like many people I sort of chose law by default. Where I come from people really only know about a half dozen or so professions: lawyer, doctor, engineer, teacher. Well, four. If you can talk and can't cut paper straight like me and your parents want what is best for you they say, "you should be a lawyer."

As I got closer to applying I talked to many, many of the lawyers around me and all of them -- every, single one -- counseled me to do anything but law school. Then I started doing the math -- law school debt, job market, globalization -- and became more than little spooked. Finally, it was the Famous Law School Board That Shall Remain Nameless that convinced me that law school was not for me. The attitude of those who succeed in law school -- a current pop culture term of douche and bag comes to mind -- made it clear that I would be miserable in law school

I commend you for making the hard choice that, honestly, many current law school students don't have the cajones to make. They'll stick it out and become one of the many miserable, indebted lawyers out there. Law school is like marriage -- better terminated before you fully commit.

I think that if you look beyond those still enrolled then you'll find many lawyers or law students with whom you can identify.

[Daniar]

E.C.:

Your plan sounds very exciting. Exactly where in Europe will you teach? I think many Europeans are generally good at English, but especially the large countries tend to have enough with their own languages - for more or less obvious reasons. So they could certainly use some good help

I agree with you. It can be a uncertain business to pursue a career within academia, so to aim for the high school level is also not a bad idea. Since I just left high school one year ago myself (and been through one year of law), I feel that it's too early to say if I would be set on the university level. Teaching in high school would also be good. And when you consider the different factors, then being a high school teacher seems quite attractive (at least here).

smd76:

Thanks for sharing your story. I really enjoyed hearing it, and it gave me a good perspective. Although I will most likely drop out now after one year, I certainly don't think it was wasted time. I am quite aware that I have developed a sensible quality in the analytical field which I can use in another study/job. After I attended some lectures in History, I am now very secure about my decision to drop out of my law study.

Also good to hear that you managed to change direction even with a JD

[socme123]

Just wanted to express solidarity with this thread. I wish I'd dropped out, but I didn't! I did the JD, the bar, and am even practicing now (just 2 years). I actually loved most of law school because my law school is more similar to grad school than most, but I've learned now that most law practice is terribly boring and pointless.

Props to all of you for getting out quicker than I did. After $100K for law school and $10K rekated to the bar exam (not to mention bar fees), I'm annoyed, tired, disenchanted, and broke. But I have hope - grad school apps go out in the fall, and I am SO excited that I've summoned the guts to change course. Far too many of my friends have not.

By the way, Skip Gates dropped out after (or during?) his first semester of law school and is now a University Professor at Harvard. There's hope

[Daniar]

Just wanted to express solidarity with this thread. I wish I'd dropped out, but I didn't! I did the JD, the bar, and am even practicing now (just 2 years). I actually loved most of law school because my law school is more similar to grad school than most, but I've learned now that most law practice is terribly boring and pointless.

Props to all of you for getting out quicker than I did. After $100K for law school and $10K rekated to the bar exam (not to mention bar fees), I'm annoyed, tired, disenchanted, and broke. But I have hope - grad school apps go out in the fall, and I am SO excited that I've summoned the guts to change course. Far too many of my friends have not.

By the way, Skip Gates dropped out after (or during?) his first semester of law school and is now a University Professor at Harvard. There's hope

Hello profwannabemcb,

Thanks for sharing your story

I understand your frustration. But I could also just as well have continued with law school. Sometimes I enjoyed it, and when I read for the exams I realized how much I knew and how well I managed to explain the stuff to my fellow students. I also did quite well in the exams. Therefore I am also convinced that I could have survived and gotten my degree. But my interest in it lacked, and I don't want to end up in such a stressful job.

But do take care. And I really hope that you manage to change direction

Good luck!

Yeah, I also read about Mr. Gates, and it seems like he dropped out of law school after one month.

I also admire him as a scholar.

[meecat]

Just 9 years ago, tuition at UC Berkeley Law was $11,000/year for in-state and $21,000 for out-of-state. Flash forward to 2010, and you are looking at $44,220/year for in-state and $52,220 for out-of-state for ONE YEAR. So if you graduated in 2001, you could have graduated with a law degree for under $33,000 for three years, which is a fraction of what you would pay now for ONE YEAR!!

Something is disturbingly wrong with this picture. How is it that we freak out when gas prices go up a few cents at the pump, but we as a society are so complacent when tuition at one of the nation's premier law schools jump 250% in less than a decade? Would anyone be okay with a gallon of gas rising from $3 to $10 in 9 years? Or milk? Or any other good on the face of the planet? Why is it that demand for law school is so inelastic to the point that these schools can raise prices as much as they want and still know that thousands of students will still apply each year and continue to pay what is now over $150,000 in tuition alone (and rising)?

Unfortunately this is not isolated to law schools. Cost of higher education is going up across the board even though the job market is completely saturated and the value of one's degree is steadily going down as competition increases. It is unfortunate that people have to essentially mortgage their lives to go to school nowadays. Something desperately needs to be done.

[El Chicano]

Just 9 years ago, tuition at UC Berkeley Law was $11,000/year for in-state and $21,000 for out-of-state. Flash forward to 2010, and you are looking at $44,220/year for in-state and $52,220 for out-of-state for ONE YEAR. So if you graduated in 2001, you could have graduated with a law degree for under $33,000 for three years, which is a fraction of what you would pay now for ONE YEAR!!

Something is disturbingly wrong with this picture. How is it that we freak out when gas prices go up a few cents at the pump, but we as a society are so complacent when tuition at one of the nation's premier law schools jump 250% in less than a decade? Would anyone be okay with a gallon of gas rising from $3 to $10 in 9 years? Or milk? Or any other good on the face of the planet? Why is it that demand for law school is so inelastic to the point that these schools can raise prices as much as they want and still know that thousands of students will still apply each year and continue to pay what is now over $150,000 in tuition alone (and rising)?

Unfortunately this is not isolated to law schools. Cost of higher education is going up across the board even though the job market is completely saturated and the value of one's degree is steadily going down as competition increases. It is unfortunate that people have to essentially mortgage their lives to go to school nowadays. Something desperately needs to be done.

Meecat,

You're absolutely right. The amount of debt students are asked to shoulder in the U.S. these days is insane. In fact, as I reflect on my decision to leave law school, one of of my many comforts is the ridiculous amount of money I saved.

I found a great blog about tuition inflation at law schools, at the following link: http://esqnever.blogspot.com/

If you have time, you should also youtube: the Law School Carol. It's kind of eerie how spot on it is.

--E.C.