Chicago MAPH - thoughts?

[philosophia]

Ok, rejected for philosophy, but accepted with half tuition into MAPH as well as a super personalized e-mail explaining why they wanted me. Plus, parents in the area so no rent expenses, etc. (Really, the cost isn't much of an issue because of this.) Still waiting on five schools, but I'm wondering if people have thoughts on this ... if it comes down to this and a "safety" that I am interested in but not in love with and that isn't well ranked, what should I do? I think I'm a pretty good applicant with a few holes that could be cleaned up by spending another year in this program. I would also find it difficult to start a program at a safety and leave with just an MA, and not even sure that it's the best move if I want to get into stronger programs. I know there are people out there who are very critical of this program as a cash-cow, but I've also heard very good things. In my case, the cost issue isn't so bad. Any thoughts?

[thomasf]

I'm impressed they offered you any tuition remission. While normally the expense is so stupidly burdensome as to be insulting to a ph.d. applicant, in your case I would certainly consider it because you would get to study with the regular philsoophy dept. faculty. If there are people there you really want access to then it could be just the good thing. On the other hand, if you are not especially enamoured with the specifics of the program I would go with any funded ph.d. offers you get. If it was me.

[Guest]

I was accepted for this program, but without any tuition remission. I, too, was initially attracted to the program because of Chicago's philosophy department (Conant, Diamond, et al) as well as the English department. This was one of my top choices, but I don't know how on earth I am going to pay for it, especially since I already have a lot of debt from my undergrad degree. I'm excited to have been accepted to such an elite university, but I don't want to be saddled with massive debt after I graduate (especially since I don't know what I want to do afterwards!).

[smithigans.wake]

That last post was mine...new to this board. :?

[thomasf]

I will be declining the offer, principally because I don't believe in university 'prestige'. I may be naive, but aside from finding competent/nurturing faculty, I believe that the program that you're in is simply not so important relative to what you actually accomplish there in terms of research to merit such a large price tag. Of course, if my parents/the government/anybody wanted to pay my way--fine.

That said, I didn't apply to any programs I felt lacked strong faculty to my area of interest.

[smithigans.wake]

No, I don't think you are at all naive. I have applied to other, less prestigious schools I would still be quite happy to attend, so I will wait and see what other offers I get.

[Guest]

That's not too bad - they denied me to the English PhD program and decided to accept me for the MAPH instead, but they gave me neither funding nor a personalized email. It kind of seems, to me, like they're saying "well, we aren't going to pay you, but you can pay us and we won't mind."

I won't be going - I've decided, since I only applied three places and got rejected at them all, to take my own backup plan and see what working in the non-academic world is like. Maybe I'll run screaming back toward grad school and this time try harder and have better luck. We'll see.

Good luck with your choice, though. It sounds like they want you, if they bothered trying to convince you, and the good thing about an MA is that you can still get your PhD afterward if you want. On the other hand, if you get your PhD at a school you're not enthused about, you can't then go get your PhD in the same subject at a higher-choice school because they don't do that. So MAPH might be good if you're considering reapplying for PhD programs at other-than-safety schools... just my two cents, which might not even be worth that.

[philosophia]

Thanks for everyone's comments. I'm still waiting on 5 more schools (wasting time on here because I can't leave the apartment till the damn mail shows up ... I kinda feel bad about staulking the mailman, but what can you do?) -- but I must say that I think given my specific situation that I will plan to very very seriously consider this offer unless I get a really great offer from one of these other places (but I'm not betting on that...). At the end of the day, lots of research and conversations with various people has convinced me that it's a strong program that will do far more than make you look polished and add a big name onto your CV, it's just too bad that it's so expensive and not worth the debt for most people. Also, I'm not exactly excited about the prospect of going through this all again in a year or two, but I suppose that in the long run it's probably worth it. Is anyone else planning to attend the event in April?

[thomasf]

I just got my email from one of the directors--I'm really surprised they're sending these out to all their admittees, as it contained personalized information about my history, interests, statement, and other prospective schools. Of course, that would explain the long gap between the notice and the email.

Anyway, I'm also surprised that they're willing to fly me out. All in all, I feel flattered and tempted, and that makes me damn suspicious. Still no way I'm going without some sort of funding (and I'm still waiting to here from the committee on social thought), but I'll probably take them up on their offer to fund a trip, just to meet some faculty and get some advice in case I end up reapplying next year.

[Guest jjjj]

I completed the MAPSS program last year, which is MAPH but for Social Science. I found the whole experience very worthwhile, as it helped me transition from the working world back to academia. Two years ago, I applied to 7 schools and was only accepted by Chicago MAPSS (with partial tuition scholarship) and my safety (with no money). This year so far I've been accepted into 3 programs, two of which are wonderfully ideal and are giving me big funding packages. However, I may still have to complete another MA. It's not necessarily transferable, which is OK with me because I like taking classes, especially if I'm being paid to do it!

Don't think that completing the program with good grades automatically gets you into a PhD program at Chicago. I know a lot of MAPH and MAPSS people who were not accepted this year. Then again, a few were, so maybe they made better contacts with the faculty they wanted to work with. The program is flexible--you can chose to take any classes you want after one core class, so if your interests are varied that will be accomodated. Or, if you only want to take philosophy classes you can do that too. Also I guess keep in miind that you may have a gap year between completing the program and applying again. Most people are encouraged to wait until they are finished with their thesis because by this December all you'll have is one quarter's grades.

Good Luck!

[Guest Guest X]

so my choice for next year has basically boiled down to the MAPH at Chicago or my MSt at Oxford. Everyone I talk to at Chicago tells me how much better their program would be for me... but I don't know. Oxford is less money and it's ... Oxford. But I just wanted to get into a PhD program in the states.

I'm not going to make it out for campus day at Chicago, but I'd love to hear from some of you guys who do how the MAPH looks.

[Guest guest]

I'm having a WTF moment because they did wind up sending me a semi-personalized email. It seemed like it was pretty much a form letter with my interests filled in to make it sound personalized, which didn't do much to convince me that they really want me.

What I don't understand is why they would offer to fly me up to visit if they can't afford to give me any funding at all. Do they offer to fly everyone up to visit? Do they send these letters to everyone? I'm dying to know.

[Guest Guest X]

I'm having a WTF moment because they did wind up sending me a semi-personalized email. It seemed like it was pretty much a form letter with my interests filled in to make it sound personalized, which didn't do much to convince me that they really want me.

What I don't understand is why they would offer to fly me up to visit if they can't afford to give me any funding at all. Do they offer to fly everyone up to visit? Do they send these letters to everyone? I'm dying to know.

yup, I got the pseudo personalized letter too. Seems like a pretty flimsy tact.

[smithigans.wake]

(I posted the following in "The Bank" forum, and thought that it would also be relevant in this thread.)

Hello all,

I wonder if anyone has seriously given thought as to whether they should even go to graduate school. At the moment, even though I've been accepted to a phenomenal school that was one of my top choices, I find myself asking just this very question.

I've been accepted to Chicago's one-year Master's of Arts in the Humanities Program. If money were not an issue, I would go in a heartbeat and I am sure I would love every minute I was there.

But, as we all know, money is definitely a very big issue. Of course I am grateful and proud of the fact that I got into Chicago, but what sense does it make for me to add on $45000 to my already-existing undergraduate debt, when this degree won't lead to any assured job prospects? I'm going to love the next year, but what about the subsequent years it'll take to pay it off? I might not enjoy the year at all, with all that debt looming over my head.

With these prospects, I'd almost be smarter to enroll in McDonalds' Hamburger University in nearby Oak Brook...

I read student and alumni bios on the MAPH page and find a common theme: many people come to the MAPH not knowing what their next career step will be, and they expect that the year at Chicago will help them sort this out. What I don't understand is how Chicago expects such students to have this career uncertainty while shouldering all that debt. They offer tuition remission to only a handful of students. What are the rest supposed to depend upon?

All I know at this point is that I would like to embark on some sort of writing career. I know I have potential as a writer, as I've received encouragement from professors and friends who've read my work. And I have truly enjoyed the academic work I've done up to this point. I am just not sure what my next step should be. I am not sure if I want to keep writing for the more specialized audience of academia or for a wider audience as a sort of freelance journalist or critic. I wonder if it would be smarter to actually find a job at a magazine or publisher and do some field work before I go back to school.

Anyone else giving grad school a second thought?

[Guest Guest M]

Yep, I'm starting to think of other options too, but only because I have yet to be accepted to a program with funding. And I'm on a few waitlists. Urgh.

It's hard to think about signing your life away for 7 years sometimes. It seems very abstract, romantic, and fun right now, but when I'm 30 and still in grad school, I might see things differently.

I think it's only natural to have doubts/cold feet before you embark on any kind of commitment. I think this requires lots of serious thinking (AWAY from posting boards) to sort out your own motivations, goals, beliefs.

[Guest whizzo]

I went to MAPH last year, and I was recently rejected from a PhD program there... even though I got excellent grades and did everything they told me to do.

Now I'm out nearly 50 thousand, and don't have any great job prospects or acceptance from any PhD programs. Yeah... I feel a little taken. "Sure, give us your money... we'll tell you anything!"

This is probably just me feeling sorry for myself right now, but all of you who were accepted to MAPH, my advice is to not go unless you know exactly what you're going to get out of it, or go if you get some funding. I'm feeling like I was completely taken advantage of right now.

[thomasf]

Brutal. What discipline? Where did you apply? Seems like a degree efrom Chicago should have gotten you some attention. Especially if your grades were good. Did you apply during your year in the program? I have heard that if you wait it's best because you have more grades, a thesis, and better relationships with your profs...

[smithigans.wake]

"whizzo"--yes, please do share some more insight if you would; it would be most helpful to me as I try to make this decision. Do other MAPH students have similar experiences? What, specifically, did the program directors tell you to do, despite which you weren't able to get accepted into a PhD program? Despite the rejection, do you feel the MAPH has given you any alternative career possibilities?

[Guest whizzo]

Okay-- so here's the deal. MAPH can be a great experience, but you have to weigh out all the pros and cons. It's a LOT of money to spend, especially if you aren't necessarily guarenteed a PhD spot somewhere, IF that's what you really want. However, they do have a very helpful career office, and the staff is more than friendly and helpful about everything. As for my classmates, well, a little over half (of the ones I'm still in touch with) think that the program really helped them. Others feel they could have gotten where they were without it.

I applied the year after the program, so with my good grades and highly praised thesis... well, I'm guessing I'm just one of the very unlucky ones. It hasn't helped that I've been getting rejection letter after rejection letter from U of C's human resources department. Like I said: one of the unlucky ones.

I'm just a little steamed right now... my particular department (I'd prefer to stay anonymous on this one, though) gave me a verbal promise of acceptance and then at the last minute took me out back and shot me like a lame horse. Excuse the colloquialism, of course.

MY ADVICE is to decide what it is you want to do with the degree-- do you really want to go to a particular PhD program? Maybe instead it would be best to just take a few classes somewhere to brush up on things you need rather than spending all the dough on U of C. However, if you're planning a major shift in your interests and want to get into a PhD program that's not your undergraduate course of study, the MAPH program is very good for that. Also, if you just need the MA so that you can teach in community colleges, MAPH is also a good way to go. There are also a lot of internships to be had after MAPH... but the majority are unpaid, and once again, you'll have to either live off more loans or forego the internship for a paying gig.

I know this might not be a lot of help, but it's the best I can offer.

Oh, and a little horror story: a friend of mine in the program applied for PhD programs this year, and U of C sent THE WRONG TRANSCRIPTS, basically blowing his chances completely of getting into a program next year, not to mention the hundreds in app fees. I'm guessing that this doesn't happen often, and I'm not sure how it reflects on U of C... but it doesn't make me like them any more right now. Yikes.

[thomasf]

Too bad you can't share the department. But I'm no longer considering the program.

It definitely sounds to me like you got especially unlucky. If you're still interested in the PhD You may want to consider just taking a regular paying job for a year while you prepare applications again--for a lot more programs. I also received a 'verbal guarantee' that didn't pan out. I wonder if that happens often in academics... Right now I'm considering whether to take partial funding at the New School or try again next year. Luckily I really enjoy my day job.

[Guest guest]

Hi "Whizzo"--Thanks for the information. I'm sorry about your lack of luck this go-round. It's not unusual, from what I've heard and seen, for people to try several times, especially in hopes of acceptance to the top programs.

Though of course I respect your reticence to go too much into specifics, if you can I'd like to hear more about the kind of verbal promise the U of C dept gave you. Was it something like, "Oh, don't worry, I'm sure you'll get in," or more like, "I would really like to see you here for the Ph.D.," or ________? Also, did anyone from MAPH or any of your professors help you with your applications--e.g., offer to critique your SOP, read a revised version of your writing sample, help you pick the programs best suited to your interests, or give you an honest evaluation--with specific examples--of your chances for admission to doctoral programs? Does/did the career services office help with that sort of stuff?

Finally, what was your opinion of the level of seriousness among the MAPH cohort, in general? Did you feel you and others were any less prepared for graduate-level work, overall, than the first-year doctoral students?

Thanks for any advice/answers you can provide!

[Guest whizzo]

Well, to answers to your questions:

My "verbal promise" was basically, "Wow, I'd love to take you on as a student," and "Oh, don't worry, you'll DEFINITELY get in," and "You really should come back here for your PhD." The whole gamut. Also, I DID have professors and preceptors help me with the statement of purpose, etc. When they told me what my chances were of getting in to programs I applied for, they basically told me that I would be one of the best candidates... of course, they did say that applying is totally a crap shoot, which I understand, though I thought my best chances were to get in to U of C.

A lot of stroking, and then I got a rejection letter from them in the beginning of February, most likely meaning that I was one of the first they rejected.

Again, I think I'm just unlucky.

Anyway, MAPH students are, for the most part, EXTREMELEY INTENSE. They take their work seriously. There are a lot of students there that will "wow" you, and you will be thinking, "How did THAT person not get into a PhD program?" I think that just goes to show how difficult it is to get in anywhere right now. As for first year doctoral students, I had a lot of them in classes... I found they weren't any more or less prepared than MAPHers. Some, I found myself asking, "So YOU made it in, and I didn't?!" Again, it's totally a crap shoot. It really sucks, you know... it all depends how you look on paper.

I have to admit, though, the MAPH program, despite what happened to me, DID make me a better candidate, and it really made me think about whether I wanted to pursue PhD study. The classes are great, and the career office... they don't GET you a job, but they will give you contacts in order for you to find work. But, as always, you have to be very willing to relocate. So, in all, it really depends on your willingness to pay a lot of cash for the degree... I know this might not be a lot of help, but it's really a personal decision.

[Guest guest]

Thanks Whizzo. Did you contact any of the U of C profs who led you to believe you were a shoo-in, to find out why they weren't able to accept you? Particularly given that one said they'd like to take you on as an advisee, it's strange-bordering-on-unconscionable that you were not accepted. The only guess I could come up with is that your interests don't reflect the direction the department would like to go in, or some other such reason that has nothing to do with credentials or who you are.

In the English thread on who_got_in, some anonymous former MAPH students said their cohort was not serious at all, and that most were underprepared and a frustration to PhD students in English. I'm glad to see that someone (you) DID find MAPH students impressive, but the polar opposite opinions don't ease my anxiety! I am encouraged that despite your unlucky outcomes to your doctoral applications, you still feel MAPH strengthened you intellectually. You're right, I suppose: it really IS a personal decision, and perhaps one reason why there are so many varied opinions on the quality, reputation, and value of the program is that people enter it to serve widely divergent purposes.

[Guest whizzo]

Absolutely true. Well said, Mr. Guest!

I've heard disparaging comments about MAPHers too, but, confindentially, I ran into a few (not very many, but a few) PhDs who were less than friendly to MAPHers, seemingly out of pure pretentiousness... as if I and others weren't worth the time of day because we weren't "good enough" to get into a "real" program. Yeah. U of C is known for its pretentious student body... on the whole, the undergrads are worse than the grads, though.

BTW-- I wasn't in the English crowd. The majority of MAPHers are English dudes, and they, along with the PhDs, could get so catty! "Percy Shelley's better!" "NO, Wordsworth is better!" Yeesh. (That's a joke, of course. I didn't really hear that conversation. However, there was a lot of posturing, and all in all, I'm glad I wasn't involved in that clique.)

I haven't contacted anyone from the department yet. I'm a little embarrassed to, I guess. My previous thesis advisor is away right now, so I wouldn't be able to anyway.

Again, MAPH can be used as a springboard for a lot of different paths. It all depends on what you want.

[Guest guest]

Yeah, I'd probably feel the same way, like an unwanted lamb. But really, given that one common and dangerous misconception (from what I've read in old Chronicle articles and responses) MAPH has fought to clarify is that the program somehow is a "back-door" way into the PhD program, it kind-of goes against the ethical responsibility of the program to its students for a professor to suggest that a MAPH student's work is good enough to merit admission. If there is some reason pertaining to any aspect of your application why you were not admitted, one of your professors should tell you what it is, so you won't waste valuable time and funds presenting the same shortcoming the next time you apply. And frankly, if anyone finds that to be an unreasonable request, you're better off not going there. But either way, asking what happened can only be edifying. Good luck And certainly it would make me feel better to know that faculty there feel a responsibility to help as much as possible with doctoral applications--from their preparation to the outcomes they return--since the more MAPH students who are admitted into PhD programs, the more like a serious master's program and the less like a frivolous cash cow (according to many people's opinions on these boards, it seems) MAPH will be reputed to be.

Re: pretentious doctoral students: I know an MIT PhD who, when pulled over by a cop for speeding in eastern Massachusetts, insisted he should not be given a ticket. "Yeah? and why's that?" the cop demanded to know. "Because I have a PhD from MIT," the newly-minted [arrogant mo-fo] PhD replied.

(The cop wrote him a ticket, of course.)

I think I will go to MAPH. It's my only option. Any other advice for succeeding in the program, pertaining to thesis-writing, research, course selection, and the like? Thanks so much, Whizzo.