How many seminars will you take this Fall?

[mudgean]

Okay, I get to be the dumb one once again on this site. My original plan was to complete an MA in three academic quarters, plus one summer (my program requires twelve seminars) I was thinking you could take three or four seminars per quarter and be done. The program director said no way, that it's a two year program, and recommended taking no more than two seminars (that's only 10 credits total) each quarter.

I am wondering what other people's experiences have been. How much reading have you been assigned per seminar? How much writing and research did you do for each class? I will take my director's advice, but I'm wondering if it would be crazy to add a language and/or a pedagogy class to this schedule. Is the work load of a graduate seminar much greater than that of a language or teaching class?

Edited April 17, 2010 by mudgean

[diehtc0ke]

Somehow I'll have to find a way to live through four seminars in the fall. Oh and that's for a Ph.D program.

Edited April 17, 2010 by diehtc0ke

[foppery]

I have to take a total of 12 seminars in two years, which means three per semester, and I think this is fairly normal for PhD programs. And then, in the third year, exams! Oh boy.

[strokeofmidnight]

dc0ke: unless that is the norm for your program, RESIST! I took 4 seminar classes this past fall and nearly died. I was fairly lucky that 2 classes and 3 out of 4 final papers connected well with each other. I can't imagine writing four completely discrete seminar papers. 3 is doable (and fairly normal for the semester system). 4 is possible, but might make your life living hell by November/December. But still. It's gotta be a good sign that there are so many classes you're excited about that you're tempted to take four!

mudgean: It depends on the format of the classes. I spent my first year in a program that was also on the quarter cycle. It's HELLISH (at least for the way I process). I took 3 classes every quarter, but only wrote seminar papers for some of them (I think 5 seminar papers total. Seminar paper = 20-30 page research paper). The other classes had "alternative" paper options, such as an take-home exam, annotated bib, shorter paper...etc. Even then--and without a teaching load to worry about--I found that to be difficult. The ten-week quarter REALLY screwed with my writing process.

Research and writing: I think I'm fairly organized and diligent, but I've almost never finished all the readings for every class--certainly, not to the level of comprehension that I'd like. I'll get through most of it, but I'd always have to prioritize. It varies DRASTICALLY from professor to professor. Typically, we'll be assigned one major primary text (say, a 500 page victorian novel, or one or two Shakespeare play) every week, alongside 30-50 pages of secondary reading. That's "normal." One of my current classes assigned 300 pages of Lacan, Heidegger, Derrida, and a few other equally difficult theorists for a single class. (I read theory at perhaps a quarter of my normal reading speed...so this is like being given 1200 pages of worth "regular text"). I find that I'll typically spend between 10 and 20 hours reading for a single class, PLUS between 5 and 30 hours a week working on the presentation and paper(s) for that class. It's not so much a matter of time--it's the mental energy that the material and level of engagement will demand.

Language classes tend to take up a lot of time, but not necessarily a lot of energy. You can kinda "march" through them with daily, diligent work, grapple with them (as I tend to do for semianrs/papers), but they can suck up a lot of time. Pedagogy: any particular reason for wanting/needing to take this? Are you teaching during your MA? Most PhD programs will make you take their own pedagogy class anyway...and taking an pedagogy class in advance is probably not very helpful.

[diehtc0ke]

dc0ke: unless that is the norm for your program, RESIST! I took 4 seminar classes this past fall and nearly died. I was fairly lucky that 2 classes and 3 out of 4 final papers connected well with each other. I can't imagine writing four completely discrete seminar papers. 3 is doable (and fairly normal for the semester system). 4 is possible, but might make your life living hell by November/December. But still. It's gotta be a good sign that there are so many classes you're excited about that you're tempted to take four!

mudgean: It depends on the format of the classes. I spent my first year in a program that was also on the quarter cycle. It's HELLISH (at least for the way I process). I took 3 classes every quarter, but only wrote seminar papers for some of them (I think 5 seminar papers total. Seminar paper = 20-30 page research paper). The other classes had "alternative" paper options, such as an take-home exam, annotated bib, shorter paper...etc. Even then--and without a teaching load to worry about--I found that to be difficult. The ten-week quarter REALLY screwed with my writing process.

Research and writing: I think I'm fairly organized and diligent, but I've almost never finished all the readings for every class--certainly, not to the level of comprehension that I'd like. I'll get through most of it, but I'd always have to prioritize. It varies DRASTICALLY from professor to professor. Typically, we'll be assigned one major primary text (say, a 500 page victorian novel, or one or two Shakespeare play) every week, alongside 30-50 pages of secondary reading. That's "normal." One of my current classes assigned 300 pages of Lacan, Heidegger, Derrida, and a few other equally difficult theorists for a single class. (I read theory at perhaps a quarter of my normal reading speed...so this is like being given 1200 pages of worth "regular text"). I find that I'll typically spend between 10 and 20 hours reading for a single class, PLUS between 5 and 30 hours a week working on the presentation and paper(s) for that class. It's not so much a matter of time--it's the mental energy that the material and level of engagement will demand.

Language classes tend to take up a lot of time, but not necessarily a lot of energy. You can kinda "march" through them with daily, diligent work, grapple with them (as I tend to do for semianrs/papers), but they can suck up a lot of time. Pedagogy: any particular reason for wanting/needing to take this? Are you teaching during your MA? Most PhD programs will make you take their own pedagogy class anyway...and taking an pedagogy class in advance is probably not very helpful.

It's a little bit of both actually--there are several classes that I want to take and the norm (and the requirement) is in that first year to take three seminars each semester with a proseminar tacked on as a fourth class in the fall. (Un)Luckily for me, I chose the program with the heaviest work load of the programs I got into (I also have a 50 book oral exam that will be conducted the day before second year begins). I know it's nowhere near the same but (I hope) I've learned from the mistakes I made when I took seven classes each term in my senior year which (I hope) will give me some perspective on how to tackle such a ridiculous feat.

My sense is that this workload is completely dependent on the professor but 99% of the time will be a rather substantial increase from the workload of an undergraduate class. I'm not going to try and quantify what this increase actually is because I've never actually taken a graduate course except for a couple at my undergraduate institution (which barely has a master's program worth mentioning) but from what I've heard, strokeofmidnight's assessment seems spot on. A lot of the programs I looked at had at least two levels of graduate seminars: one that had a mix of graduate students and upper-level undergraduates and another that was exclusive to graduate students. The former set of classes usually has less reading and requires a shorter final paper.

Edited April 17, 2010 by diehtc0ke

[mudgean]

Thanks for the information DC and SOM. The issue of mental energy is so important. I'm going to stick to only two grad seminars this fall (they are 600 level classes for grad students only) Writing two 20-30 pages papers will definitely keep me busy.

SOM: In my program there is a three course sequence of pedagogy classes (teaching lit comp) that are required the first year if you want to teach and get funding the second year. Those classes start winter quarter.

[!anonscribe!]

If you're on the quarter system, then two seminars is standard. most programs will explicitly bar you from taking more than that. That's what I took. Here's the average workload you're looking at for a grad seminar:

Reading = ~400 pages a week (usually a novel and secondary materials).

Writing = 20-25 page paper due in final week

Other = usually an annotated biblio or in-class presentation of some kind

But, many students in our department take a language course on top of this load for a few quarters. Generally, I'd avoid doing that your first quarter. Just get used to grad seminars and get adjusted to grad student life, then gauge your time constraints and do what you're comfortable with.

A word of advice if you're used to the semester system: you should ideally have a topic in mind and begin working on your final paper by week four or five. I went from semesters (where you have this nice lull about midway through the semester) to quarters, and it was a rude awakening. Quarters are full throttle from week 2 'til the end. Once I got used to them, I actually preferred them. But, it took some adjustment.

[EKPhrase]

If you're on the quarter system, then two seminars is standard. most programs will explicitly bar you from taking more than that. That's what I took. Here's the average workload you're looking at for a grad seminar:

Reading = ~400 pages a week (usually a novel and secondary materials).

Writing = 20-25 page paper due in final week

Other = usually an annotated biblio or in-class presentation of some kind

But, many students in our department take a language course on top of this load for a few quarters. Generally, I'd avoid doing that your first quarter. Just get used to grad seminars and get adjusted to grad student life, then gauge your time constraints and do what you're comfortable with.

A word of advice if you're used to the semester system: you should ideally have a topic in mind and begin working on your final paper by week four or five. I went from semesters (where you have this nice lull about midway through the semester) to quarters, and it was a rude awakening. Quarters are full throttle from week 2 'til the end. Once I got used to them, I actually preferred them. But, it took some adjustment.

ANother major concern in this conversation is whether or not you have to work for your stipend. I have in the past taken three graduate courses, worked a full time job, and taught two sections of 24 students each. I nearly died. I had to give up football and all manner of TV for a year. Someone having a birthday would nearly drive me to a maudlin frenzy of self pity, because before they even asked I knew in advance I would not be attending any parties. On the flip side, I scaled things back this semester, kind of - MA Comps, one class, teaching one class, and a prt-time job. All I can say is that the reading loads mentioned above are accurate - I see at my PhD program a leaning towards 25 - 35 page papers (ACK!). I am worried about keeping up. I will be a TA, lead recitation and attend the UG class. I intend to work vigorously to refrain from any extracurricular commitments my first year. I have often wondered how I possibly took more than three classes as an undergrad. I don't know how I could have ever taken four at the graduate level, especially if I had to work.

DC, you'll be OK. You have enough drive, I think, to power through Fingers crossed for you! I think I will try to stick with three and take some summer credits... sigh...

[StrangeLight]

take whatever courseload is recommended by your graduate director and your advisor. nothing more.

my first semester, i took three graduate seminars AND a "one credit" independent study with my advisor and another student, where we'd meet every other week to discuss one book, no writing involved. i barely slept that semester. i pulled all nighters constantly. that extra class doesn't sound like much, but the other student in there didn't contribute very much and rarely read all the material (if s/he even read the correct book for that week, which didn't always happen). i had cover the readings really well because there was no where to hide in that class.

on any given week, i'd have 1100-1200 pages to read. i thought i read slowly (20 pages an hour), but i've heard that's about average. that's 55-60 hrs a week of reading. already more than a full-time job, and that's just to make sure you cover the material. then you've got term papers (10-20 pages), weekly/monthly response papers (2-4 pages), and whatever you're doing for your own research. if you stay on top of your stuff, that's already pushing you to 70 hrs a week.

take the two courses. it'll take you 40 hours a week just to complete the readings for those two courses. throw in a language class, which is not mentally taxing but is definitely time-consuming, and you're already around 45 hrs a week. if you're TAing as well, then there goes your whole week. if not, take that little bit of extra breathing room to make some real progress on your own research. trust me, even with two classes, you'll still feel like you're putting in more than a full workweek.

on a semi-related note, in the fall of my second year, i'll be finished all the course requirements for my MA. i had a blissfully lax schedule set up so that i could really focus on my thesis and wrap it up early in the spring. took my schedule to my advisor: one reading seminar (long books, lots of papers), one teaching seminar (really easy), a french class (mid-level, so somewhat challenging), and TAing. and working on my thesis. my advisor decided this wasn't enough work, so she signed me up for an independent seminar. "only 2 credits."

[americana]

If no one forces you to take more than three seminars (or to take two seminars and teach one), then don't. There's no reason that graduate school should make you hate both life and literature alike.

[EKPhrase]

Hahah Americana, it's all the people who will hate YOU when you have taken more than three that I had to struggle with My friends must have been so SICK of checking in only to hear the exact same moan-fest every time they called. I got to the point where if they asked how I was I would just say, I can't do this to you any more - you know how it is - thousands of pages to read, major papers to write -- how are YOU?! I would leave it at that. It became a very lonely pursuit because there was no one to share it with. My fellow students were not even remotely in the same boat, and in all, I am glad it's over and will never load myself down like that again -

[americana]

Hahah Americana, it's all the people who will hate YOU when you have taken more than three that I had to struggle with My friends must have been so SICK of checking in only to hear the exact same moan-fest every time they called. I got to the point where if they asked how I was I would just say, I can't do this to you any more - you know how it is - thousands of pages to read, major papers to write -- how are YOU?! I would leave it at that. It became a very lonely pursuit because there was no one to share it with. My fellow students were not even remotely in the same boat, and in all, I am glad it's over and will never load myself down like that again -

Zing. So did you come out hating life and literature alike, or are you still hanging in there?

[fj20]

I'm starting in an MA program next fall, and they suggest taking three seminars a semester, plus two core courses (on theory and general stuff I think, I think one of them is a real light preparation-type course). Since they suggest it to all incoming students, shouldn't that be manageable?

P.S. Possibly a stupid question, but is there a major difference between an undergraduate lecture course-load and a graduate one? (I'm guessing the reading load is much bigger, and probably longer papers to write (although I would also guess there would be fewer short papers to write).)

[EKPhrase]

Zing. So did you come out hating life and literature alike, or are you still hanging in there?

Thanks for asking - I came out blessed. On the loneliest days, I still had the characters for company The papers, however, were another story. I still have one hanging over my head that I am trying to start But I found that I hated life, on many days, but the literature - never. That's what makes me insane enough to pursue the PhD!

[EKPhrase]

I'm starting in an MA program next fall, and they suggest taking three seminars a semester, plus two core courses (on theory and general stuff I think, I think one of them is a real light preparation-type course). Since they suggest it to all incoming students, shouldn't that be manageable?

P.S. Possibly a stupid question, but is there a major difference between an undergraduate lecture course-load and a graduate one? (I'm guessing the reading load is much bigger, and probably longer papers to write (although I would also guess there would be fewer short papers to write).)

In all of my cross listed classes, I found undergrads wrote 8 - 10 page final papers and graduates wrote 15 - 25. All profs made a distinction and assigned the grad students more. I felt the problem was that the discussions focused more on understanding the plot rather than critically engaging the texts, which left me at a disadvantage. If you have the time, the best way to compensate for that is to pop in during their office hours and try to have some of those conversations.

I just can't understand them proposing five classes, regardless. But maybe the overall workload is lower? Hopefully you aren't working...

[mudgean]

fj20 I guess I would go with what people are your program are suggesting. I'm only taking two classes because my program is on the quarter system. Also, I've been out of school for awhile and the last thing I want is to get overwhelmed and fail out (you must maintain a 3.5 GPA) Besides that, I'm persuing this degree partly for my own enrichment and I don't want to to feel that I'm having to skim material or slap together papers. I'll need to take more than two classes the following quarters though.

Last summer I took an upper division literature class for graduate credit at a local university. The professor assigned some extra reading and required an annotated bibliography for the final paper. It was a concentrated four week class so the reading was intense, I thought...about one Victorian novella a night, along with reflection papers, an analytic essay, a final essay and a final symposium. There was no real research required though, which I think is the difference between classes like that and the graduate seminars.