Please Help Evaluate Competitiveness

[epspi]

Guys, thank you in advance for reading. First I'll lay out my goal and then my profile.

GOAL

Would like to attend some "prestigious" university's PhD program in Statistics, Operations Research, Management Science, Finance or whatever else will allow me to study stats, computing, and a particular subject of application. In my case, since I don't plan to do academic research after the PhD, the grad school does not need to be exceptional in the minds of academics, but rather it should be exceptional in the minds of business people and other poorly informed individuals. For example, many people on this forum have discussed how great NCSU's Stats program is; a degree from there would be almost a hindrance during job placement whereas a degree from a less highly-ranked program, say, UPenn's (assuming UPenn's Stats department is not as good as NCSU's) would enable me to go much farther with ease.

PROFILE

In reverse chronological

• GRE: 800Q, 740V, 4.5AWA
• Graduated 4 years ago and have been working mostly in the front office at a very large Investment Bank. Some of the experience could be made to look directly relevant to Stats, as there was use of time series, optimization, and Monte Carlo at times.
  • Undergraduate was Applied Math at Berkeley, with a lot of classes in Stats (2 at the Graduate level). Grades were poor. I have two W's (need to get transcript to be certain), so my overall GPA Is probably 3.0 or so. Was transfer student to Berkeley from Ohio State, if relevant.
  • Have 2 years of decent Putnam results (top 10%)
  • Have no undergraduate research experience.
  • Most importantly, did not secure any faculty recommendations, and don't think I could do so now. My employer recommendations should be very good, and they are from people that I have worked with for two years.

  QUESTIONS

  [*]Given my grades and profile otherwise, what is the range of schools to which it makes sense to apply given my motivations?[*]Should I instead be applying to Masters programs? Presumably I could do well there and have a better shot at applying to "good" PhD programs.[*]Does it makes sense to take 1 or more classes this Fall to secure faculty recommendations? Does the caliber of the institution weigh a lot on the recommendation? Reason I ask is because I live next door to CUNY Baruch, which is very inexpensive and has recently amassed some well-respected guys in Financial Math.[*]Would taking the Math GRE be a good idea, assuming that it would be possible to prepare for it to get a good score?

  Thank you in advance for reading all this, and I appreciate any input you have!

Edited July 13, 2010 by epspi

[KatieM]

Let me chime in, strictly regarding question 3:

Does it makes sense to take 1 or more classes this Fall to secure faculty recommendations? Does the caliber of the institution weigh a lot on the recommendation? Reason I ask is because I live next door to CUNY Baruch, which is very inexpensive and has recently amassed some well-respected guys in Financial Math.

I'd go ahead and try to get academic recs, either from your undergrad professors (it never hurts to ask -- honestly!), or from these Masters classes you mentioned. I applied and got into a fairly well-respected PhD program for stats (although it sounds lower-tier than your desires), and it was crucial that I had letters from faculty. I had been out of undergrad for five years teaching at a top-tier private secondary school, and I thought that maybe I could swing recs from just my superiors there, given my good undergraduate record and excellent GRE scores, but my grad program made it clear that I needed academic recs. I took a year of Masters-level classes, did very well in those, had three of my profs from that school write recs, and got into all of the schools to which I applied.

What's your timeline for applying? Is it feasible for you to take a year and rock out a few classes, like I did, to secure a couple of rec letters? That way, you could get back into student-mode and show your potential schools you're serious about your plans.

Just my two cents...

Edited July 13, 2010 by KatieM

[socialpsych]

Are you sure that you need a PhD? Since you do not plan to go into academia, why wouldn't some kind of master's suffice?

It may be totally different in quantitative fields, but in my field a PhD really only makes sense for someone who at least might consider continuing with research. It is often a very demanding degree in terms of time, effort, and opportunity cost. I'm sure you have thought this through relative to the work you would like to do after your degree, but just thought I'd ask in case you haven't thought about it.

[epspi]

Thanks for your responses!

I would like to enroll in Fall 2011, so I think I could do courses during this fall and get recs from faculty. I don't think being sidelined for two years until Fall 2012 makes sense, though.

I agree that a Masters program would be interesting, except for the funding issue. Can anyone comment on my competitiveness to Masters programs?

[statsguy]

Guys, thank you in advance for reading. First I'll lay out my goal and then my profile.

GOAL

Would like to attend some "prestigious" university's PhD program in Statistics, Operations Research, Management Science, Finance or whatever else will allow me to study stats, computing, and a particular subject of application. You have mentioned several broad areas here. In many universities, these are completely separate departments. You need to focus on something more specific. In my case, since I don't plan to do academic research after the PhD, the grad school does not need to be exceptional in the minds of academics, but rather it should be exceptional in the minds of business people and other poorly informed individuals. This is not necessarily the best approach to take... see below. For example, many people on this forum have discussed how great NCSU's Stats program is; a degree from there would be almost a hindrance during job placement whereas a degree from a less highly-ranked program, say, UPenn's (assuming UPenn's Stats department is not as good as NCSU's) would enable me to go much farther with ease.

First, while NCSU's name isn't as "prestigious" as UPenn, NCSU's department is superior, especially if you are looking to go into industry. You'd be surprised at how many people in industry know this; they are not complete morons. Also, NCSU is the largest department and thus has the largest Statistics PhD alumni network in the nation. Networking and connections are critical to finding industry jobs after graduation and internships during your school years. I don't mean to belittle NCSU, but several schools with less prestigious names have plenty more to make up for it. You need to carefully look at each department.

Also, you should go somewhere where the faculty research will interest you; lots of "prestigious" schools (for example, UChicago) do research which is extremely theoretical and will be of little use in industry; it's much better to go somewhere where you can do more "applied" research. This will help greatly.

PROFILE

In reverse chronological

• GRE: 800Q, 740V, 4.5AWA
  
• Graduated 4 years ago and have been working mostly in the front office at a very large Investment Bank. Some of the experience could be made to look directly relevant to Stats, as there was use of time series, optimization, and Monte Carlo at times.
  • Undergraduate was Applied Math at Berkeley, with a lot of classes in Stats (2 at the Graduate level). Grades were poor. I have two W's (need to get transcript to be certain), so my overall GPA Is probably 3.0 or so. Was transfer student to Berkeley from Ohio State, if relevant. What was your Math+Stat GPA?
    
  • Have 2 years of decent Putnam results (top 10%)
  • Have no undergraduate research experience.
  • Most importantly, did not secure any faculty recommendations, and don't think I could do so now. My employer recommendations should be very good, and they are from people that I have worked with for two years. Most schools require 3 recommendations, and it's highly critical that at least two of these come from Math/Stats faculty. If needed, the third can probably be a research advisors letter, but I can't imagine that two employer recommendations + ??? third will fly. I think this is where your application is most lacking and may prevent your application from being looked at. But it really can't hurt to ask... you never know who will remember you.
    

  QUESTIONS

  [*]Given my grades and profile otherwise, what is the range of schools to which it makes sense to apply given my motivations? I don't know if you'd get into any "prestigious" schools, but you might have a decent chance at getting into a school around the Ohio State/Michigan State caliber. It's been a few years since I've applied and have heard that admissions have become much more competitive due to the economy, as well as increased awareness of the field.[*]Should I instead be applying to Masters programs? Presumably I could do well there and have a better shot at applying to "good" PhD programs. YES. But I would still apply to PhD programs. You never know what will happens.[*]Does it makes sense to take 1 or more classes this Fall to secure faculty recommendations? Does the caliber of the institution weigh a lot on the recommendation? Reason I ask is because I live next door to CUNY Baruch, which is very inexpensive and has recently amassed some well-respected guys in Financial Math. It certainly can't hurt. But why not just do their MS program (if they have one.)[*]Would taking the Math GRE be a good idea, assuming that it would be possible to prepare for it to get a good score? No. Don't waste your time, especially being 4 years out of undergrad. It's a really tough test and will at most marginally help your application.

  I would recommend applying to MS programs first. Unfortunately, I really don't think your application is quite ready for PhD programs, especially top-tier schools. Go to a solid MS program, do really well, take lots of classes, get to know professors, and maybe even do a small research project while you are there. In addition to taking Stats classes, I'd recommend taking Real Analysis (ie Rudin level.) If you took that in undergrad, then take some Measure Theory/Lebesgue Integration courses. This will look really good on your application and will make grad school easier. Then you will have very good chances of getting into PhD programs.ou

  Sorry if my post is a little rough around the edges, I do really wish you luck; keep in mind it will be a long journey (at least 6 years or so) but it will pay off. To the poster who questioned getting a PhD --- a PhD will open up a lot more doors... especially in fields such as Pharma, but also in Finance, Operations Research, etc... This also means much higher salaries. Also, keep in mind I'm assuming you want to go to a Stats program (I'm a Stats PhD student), so if you decide to apply to other programs, such as Finance, not all this may apply.

  Thank you in advance for reading all this, and I appreciate any input you have!

[statsguy]

Thanks for your responses!

I would like to enroll in Fall 2011, so I think I could do courses during this fall and get recs from faculty. I don't think being sidelined for two years until Fall 2012 makes sense, though.

I agree that a Masters program would be interesting, except for the funding issue. Can anyone comment on my competitiveness to Masters programs?

Most application deadlines are mid December while some are mid January. So you will probably have to ask for recommendations in early to mid November. It doesn't hurt to apply for Fall 2011, but IMHO you will have a much easier time applying (and will likely get in to many more and better schools) if you hold off another year. Masters funding depends on the school; some schools fund a lot of their MS students for most of the time, some don't fund at all. Lots of departments are having budget issues, so funding may be harder to come by. My department (a very good department) will not fund any MS students for the next few years since we are struggling to fund PhD students. In the past, we have been able to fund at least 1-2 semesters of the MS degree.

[hubris]

Cutting to the chase: go for the MBA.

PhD will be a liability if you want to maximize your decision making power.

[lhfields]

Hi!

I have two points:

- Some other posts mentioned you need to have some degree of interest in academia in order to pursue PhD. Disagreed. I know four top Finance PhDs who will go directly to hedge fund without trying to secure an assistant professorship upon their graduation. In fact, having a clear goal actually helps you.

- Now this might sound somewhat inconsistent. But as far as getting an admission ticket, you unfortunately must show that you are extremely interested in research. Your momentum in producing an original intellectual creation is the single most important thing many ad-coms will look at (strictly my opinion). Based on the parts of the profile you disclosed, you might have to either highlight your industry experience and make a linkage to academic research or start doing some.

LHF

Edited July 25, 2010 by lhfields