Non-Academic positions for math PhD's

[Snitse]

Until recently I had been planning on getting a PhD in pure math, and then working in academia, but I then decided that working in academia might not be for me. I still however would like to go for a math PhD, but my concern now is that depending on the concentration I choose, finding a job outside of academia might be harder or easier. I feel like I am interested in all sorts of math and so am open to changing my concentration based on what types of positions will be available to me after graduating. I was just wondering, what kind concentrations would be good for finding non-academic jobs post grad school?

I always hear that there are many jobs available to math PhD's and have had examples quoted at me like one math PhD my dad knows makes evacuation plans for cities in case of disaster or another one works planning traffic lights. I would love to do something where I got to use interesting math and apply it to tangible problems, I just don't know what sort of concentrations I should look at to be qualified for those kinds of jobs later.

I am an undergrad entering my senior year.

Thanks for any insights.

[StatlyDude]

On 7/28/2010 at 8:01 PM, Snitse said:

I always hear that there are many jobs available to math PhD's and have had examples quoted at me like one math PhD my dad knows makes evacuation plans for cities in case of disaster or another one works planning traffic lights. I would love to do something where I got to use interesting math and apply it to tangible problems, I just don't know what sort of concentrations I should look at to be qualified for those kinds of jobs later.

I don't think there are many job opportunities for math ph.d.'s or science ph.d.'s in general. If you want a job, you should just study for actuarial exams or become a computer programmer.

 

On 7/28/2010 at 8:01 PM, Snitse said:

I feel like I am interested in all sorts of math and so am open to changing my concentration based on what types of positions will be available to me after graduating. I was just wondering, what kind concentrations would be good for finding non-academic jobs post grad school?

I think math at the grad level is so specialized that there are thousands of subspecialties you can choose from. But if you want a job, etc., you should just find something after UG. It's hard to find jobs with a ph.d.:

http://www.nocklebeast.net/Links/native/usnews.html

Not to discourage you, but many math/science people are not practical. Many famous mathematicians in history lived and died in abject poverty, just like most artists who pursued their passions.

 

On 7/28/2010 at 8:01 PM, Snitse said:

like one math PhD my dad knows makes evacuation plans for cities in case of disaster or another one works planning traffic lights. I would love to do something where I got to use interesting math and apply it to tangible problems, I just don't know what sort of concentrations I should look at to be qualified for those kinds of jobs later.

I am an undergrad entering my senior year.

Thanks for any insights.

I'm not trying to be mean, but you might see a psychiatrist for a possible Asperger's. So many math-types led miserable lives, Unabomber Kaczynski, Living-with-Mother Perelman, Beautiful Mind Nash, Fuck-the-World Grothendieck, the most recent examples, weirdo's and misfits all .... Riemann, Cantor, de Moivre, Abel, etc., were all great mathematicians who lived and died in misery and poverty. Don't join their ranks. Godel, Turing, etc. were also super-weirdo's, ultra-misfits.

[Snitse]

Wow, I didn't expect such a strong response.

Well would it make any difference if I said I could probably get into a top school, and I would be willing to get a PhD in applied math?

[UnlikelyGrad]

Not everyone has such a negative view of things...

I hear that computer companies like to hire people with a knowledge of topology, I think for graphics purposes. This is only gossip though--I only have a fuzzy idea of what topology is. I just happen to know a lot of computer geeks (one of whom has an MS math and makes boatloads of money).

The article StatlyDude posted just made me roll my eyes. Sure, academia is a hard field to break into (I only give myself a 30% chance of making it) but there are plenty of fields in which PhD's are highly sought after. The woman they cited as a prime example got an excellent job offer right off the bat, she just turned it down! And true, grad school doesn't teach you how to do stuff like manage people, but you need those skills as an academic as well. The whole point of doing a PhD is to learn to acquire new skills without having them spoonfed to you in class...people management is such a skill.

[statly Dude also posted a personal attack which will be deleted--someone is obviously bitter. Disregard him.)

[Festivus]

You could check out Operations Research/Optimization aka manangement science...seems like every "gubment" applied math job is in this field right now. You could go to the dark side and try out statistics. But if you're anything like the pure mathematicians that I know, you'd rather eat your own foot.

Cheers!

[hubris]

Not everyone has such a negative view of things...

I hear that computer companies like to hire people with a knowledge of topology, I think for graphics purposes. This is only gossip though--I only have a fuzzy idea of what topology is. I just happen to know a lot of computer geeks (one of whom has an MS math and makes boatloads of money).

A few, perhaps well earned caveats: 1) when computer scientists talk of topology it is often very different than what we study with mathematicians; 2) what makes a MS student is a lot different than what makes a PhD student. I view these as two distinct creatures.

That said if you can express yourself and happen to be a US citizen, then you will do well. Still too early to worry about particulars.

Edited July 30, 2010 by hubris

[StatlyDude]

Wow, I didn't expect such a strong response.

Well would it make any difference if I said I could probably get into a top school, and I would be willing to get a PhD in applied math?

From what I've read about math research, my impression is that math researchers focus on one of the thousands of hyper-specialized subfields that only a handful other people in the world care about. If it's a pure math subfield, there may not be any application whatsoever outside of the academia (I understand that pure mathematicians don't care about the utility of their work.) and the chance of most math grad student landing tenured professorship is very small, I think. (Attrition rate at math ph.d. programs is 80%, I've read.) So why put in all that difficult work just to find yourself long-term unemployed and even worse, unemployable in the eyes of the ordinary mortals? In the meantime, you'd see a bunch of mediocre geeks making six and seven-figure income as physicians, Big 4 CPA's, etc.

If you're an applied type, why not try Statistics, Economics, Finance, etc. I'm looking at Stat personally, but you with the strong UG math background can do a ph.d. in econ or finance and have much better job prospects. You will use advanced math like analysis, topology, etc. in your economic or financial research, and contribute to the society as well as have a chance at making lucrative discoveries.

I admire the billionaire hedge-fund founder, James Simons, who actually is a great mathematician and a successful individual. Don't follow in the footsteps of Abel, Riemann, Galois, Cantor, De Moivre, Erdos, Godel, Turing, Grothendieck, Kaczynski, Perelman, Nash, et al. Those folks were born geniuses and yet ended up living and dying in poverty and/or depression, mental illness, isolation, etc. No point spending all that time in grad school just to live in the wilderness with the brutes.

Edited July 30, 2010 by StatlyDude

[Snitse]

Thanks for all the (somewhat conflicting) advice. You've certainly given me a lot to think about.

I actually have been considering Operations Research like one of the posters suggested, but while I know a bit about what kind of work i might do, I don't really know what the job market/salaries might be. Any ideas??

Thanks again.

[lhfields]

Hi,

To your OP question, I think there exist many industry jobs for math PhDs. Since you premised that you are interested in applied math not pure math, you can essentially align your industry career path with the subfield in your future doctoral program.

For example, I know a guy who specialized in stochastic processes and inventory control and was employed by Dell as inventory controller. You mentioned doing OR, and I also know an OR PhD who specialized in hazard estimation and risk management and ended up as associate at Goldman Sachs (NYC). You can get a decent industry job if you plan carefully.

However, I echo one of the replies that if you are planning to get an industry job, doing a PhD in applied math not be necessary. One caveat to the two job placements I mentioned is that they are all on a technical side of the industry. If you ever want to climb up the corporate ladder, you will need to compete with MBAs: managerial skills are key. Don't get me wrong, if you look at Pandit from Citi, he got PhD in Finance from CBS. And we all know Finance PhD is, in effect, a combination of applied math, stats, OR, and economics (Note he got MS from Columbia Fu). That said, if you want to side with development and research of products, markets, and the like, getting a job after Math or OR PhD sounds OK. Though my two-cent is that a long-term goal should always be making a leap to managerial positions in a firm.

-LHF

Thanks for all the (somewhat conflicting) advice. You've certainly given me a lot to think about.

I actually have been considering Operations Research like one of the posters suggested, but while I know a bit about what kind of work i might do, I don't really know what the job market/salaries might be. Any ideas??

Thanks again.