CogNeuro: How high should I aim? Top 20? Top 50? Top 100?

[NewEmpiric]

Everyone I talk to seems to give the following advice: Apply to a few top programs, a few mid-tier programs, and a few "sure things."

The problem is, "top" and "sure thing" will be different for everyone. I've tried to get some advice on this from professors, but no one seems to have a good sense of what will be competitive where. So, I want to see if any of you have some advice.

My Stats:

Undergrad GPA: 2.9 (Ivy League physics program. I'm switching to cognitive neuroscience).

Post-Baccalaureate GPA: 3.9

Psychology GPA: 4.0

GRE: 1420 (660 V, 760 Q)

Age: 30 (not sure if this is relevant)

Publications:

1 journal paper, submitted (network modeling paper, first author)

1 journal paper, in prep (EEG/ERP, first author)

1 paper to be presented at a symposium (net modeling, first author)

1 poster presentation, accepted (reaction time, cognitive control, second author)

I'm optimistic that I'll be competitive somewhere. However, when I tell people where I'm planning to apply (mostly top 30 programs), I still get the "well, you should apply to some backup programs too." Admittedly, I haven't been forthcoming with everyone about my stats, but the point should be clear: I don't know where I should be aiming.

I want to be realistic. Can anyone offer insight?

Edited September 17, 2010 by NewEmpiric

[cogneuroforfun]

You say nothing about the type of research you want to do. If you apply somewhere with no one doing research in that subtopic, it doesn't matter what ranking the school is, they won't accept you. At the same time, if you apply only where there are specific labs that mesh very well with your interests, rankings will also not matter too much. Basically, if a PI sees you as a perfect fit in their lab, they can likely help get you accepted, although not all schools/departments work that way. So you're looking at this completely backwards. Apply to the top labs in your area of interest. As to whether you're competitive for them or not, it depends very much on your interests, expertise, research experience, etc., more than your hard numbers. A 2.9 GPA isn't great, but postgrad coursework will certainly help minimize that, so don't focus too much on it.

[schoolpsych_hopeful]

Your profile is very impressive, congrats on that GRE score! I agree that finding a school that's a good research match is more important than one that's high ranking. I don't think your undergrad GPA is too much of a problem, since it's in a different field, and you post-grad GPA is high.

Bottom line: apply to schools where there are faculty you'd like to work with. Don't apply anywhere you don't see yourself attending. Unfortunately, it's going to be a competitive application season. At this point, I don't think there are any "sure things."

[NewEmpiric]

Thanks to you both for responding.

@cogneuroforfun

To your point:

You say nothing about the type of research you want to do....Apply to the top labs in your area of interest.

You're right, I didn't say anything about research interests (though perhaps should have).

I'm interested in cognitive/affective control and neuroimaging of the PFC. All of the schools I plan to apply to are places doing excellent research in this space. Now that I've identified those places, I'm left only with schools that are typically highly rated (top 30ish in USNews).

So, my instinct is to do just what you said and to apply to departments that are doing research I like....I just don't want to be too unrealistic and end up empty handed come April.

Edited September 17, 2010 by NewEmpiric

[eucalyptus]

If all the programs you're really really interested in are top 30, just apply there. That's exactly what happened to me last year when I was applying - I intended to apply to a variety of programs, but all the labs I really liked were ranked high (my stats were vaguely similar to yours, if that helps). I did end up applying to one school that was ranked lower just because I felt like I should, and that was one of the two schools that didn't accept me - they can tell!

One other thing is that your list of schools will likely change somewhat as you email profs in the labs that you're interested in (which you should definitely do). I suggest that you contact profs somewhat broadly. Some profs might not be working on the stuff you like anymore, some profs might be really excited by your research ideas, some might suggest other labs where you'd be a better fit. When I started contacting profs, it became incredibly clear which schools would make good fits and which wouldn't.

Good luck!

[NewEmpiric]

If all the programs you're really really interested in are top 30, just apply there. That's exactly what happened to me last year when I was applying - I intended to apply to a variety of programs, but all the labs I really liked were ranked high (my stats were vaguely similar to yours, if that helps). I did end up applying to one school that was ranked lower just because I felt like I should, and that was one of the two schools that didn't accept me - they can tell!

One other thing is that your list of schools will likely change somewhat as you email profs in the labs that you're interested in (which you should definitely do). I suggest that you contact profs somewhat broadly. Some profs might not be working on the stuff you like anymore, some profs might be really excited by your research ideas, some might suggest other labs where you'd be a better fit. When I started contacting profs, it became incredibly clear which schools would make good fits and which wouldn't.

Good luck!

@ eucalyptus

Thanks for the info. This does help and allays my fears a bit.

I have a question though about contacting POIs. When you mailed them, what sorts of responses did you get? I ask because I'm wondering how to handle them going forward. One was very positive (you'd fit well... I look forward to reviewing your app), one was very curt but said "yes" that my idea would fit, one was positive but upfront that the lab might not have room, and one never responded.

Did you follow up with POIs over the course of a few weeks, or did you just let the conversation die off if they didn't ask questions?

[eucalyptus]

@ eucalyptus

Thanks for the info. This does help and allays my fears a bit.

I have a question though about contacting POIs. When you mailed them, what sorts of responses did you get? I ask because I'm wondering how to handle them going forward. One was very positive (you'd fit well... I look forward to reviewing your app), one was very curt but said "yes" that my idea would fit, one was positive but upfront that the lab might not have room, and one never responded.

Did you follow up with POIs over the course of a few weeks, or did you just let the conversation die off if they didn't ask questions?

I got a variety of responses as well. My current advisor initially said "It's unclear how many students we'll be able to take this year, but please apply anyway". I think I got responses (eventually...) from everyone I emailed, but a few of them said they'd changed focuses and redirected me to other people. I got a couple of those very curt "yes"es, and I don't think I ended up applying to any of those places, simply because it eventually became clear that the fit wasn't perfect. And I had one incredibly enthusiastic response ("That sounds perfect, we definitely have space, read these papers and let's set up a time to talk about them" etc). In most cases (except for the last one), I let the conversation die off if they hadn't asked any questions and I didn't have any more questions for them. There were a couple of cases where I came up with questions a few weeks later and re-emailed, and that seemed fine. I'm not particularly good at keeping up small talk, and I don't think profs really have the time for it anyway!

[NewEmpiric]

I got a variety of responses as well. My current advisor initially said "It's unclear how many students we'll be able to take this year, but please apply anyway". I think I got responses (eventually...) from everyone I emailed, but a few of them said they'd changed focuses and redirected me to other people. I got a couple of those very curt "yes"es, and I don't think I ended up applying to any of those places, simply because it eventually became clear that the fit wasn't perfect. And I had one incredibly enthusiastic response ("That sounds perfect, we definitely have space, read these papers and let's set up a time to talk about them" etc). In most cases (except for the last one), I let the conversation die off if they hadn't asked any questions and I didn't have any more questions for them. There were a couple of cases where I came up with questions a few weeks later and re-emailed, and that seemed fine. I'm not particularly good at keeping up small talk, and I don't think profs really have the time for it anyway!

Perfect. That sounds a lot like the approach I'm using now. Let them lead the conversation: if they want to talk more, they'll ask. Otherwise, don't be a pest.

[eucalyptus]

Perfect. That sounds a lot like the approach I'm using now. Let them lead the conversation: if they want to talk more, they'll ask. Otherwise, don't be a pest.

Exactly. Although, if you have more questions or ideas you want to discuss later, don't be afraid to bug them. Good luck!

[jhmoss1812]

To add to the POI information, I also got a wide range of responses. Some didn't respond, some said they weren't taking students, most said to apply. However, one was very responsive. She actually invited me up for an interview before I had even submitted my application, just based off my stats and research interests. I ended up getting wait-listed there so nothing is ever a sure thing. While initial optimism is always great, don't let it get your hopes too high because it doesn't imply a sure thing. The fact that you have two first-author publications already will be a HUGE advantage for you. You have an impressive application, but there is no need to be too needy upfront. Most faculty are so busy that they are not thinking about applications yet. When they do, they'll make contact with you if they feel like it's a good fit.