Transfer US PhD to UK- advice please

[beekeeper]

Hi

I'm from the UK, and just started a PhD in the US. Already I am pretty sure that it's not for me, though, and I want to apply to start again in the UK or elsewhere in Europe next year. This might seem hasty, but there are a few reasons:

- I had no idea grad school would take so long here. I took advice from an old American Prof. I had (who therefore went through grad school decades ago) who told me to expect 5-6 years, with a year or two off as I was entering with a 2 year M.A. My new department also told me before I came that I would be expected to go through much quicker since I already have 5 semesters of graduate level work (and an 80,000 word thesis) under my belt. As it turns out, though, I can only waive a couple of courses, and average completion time here seems to be 7-8 years. That last part might not be a shock to Americans reading this, but I have friends on very highly rated programmes in the UK, Germany, Holland and Australia who will get a PhD in 3-4 years (in fact they might get thrown off the programme if they don't finish in 4). The difference, I suppose, is that outside the US you generally have to enter with a masters, which substitutes for the initial coursework component on a US PhD (though you still have to do some methods training). I realise that I for a job in the US an American PhD is a big advantage, but I'm not intending to work in the US anyway, and anywhere else (except maybe Canada) a European one is seen as just as valuable. I'm also on the older side for just starting grad school, and don't want to be looking for a first job at 40. Though some of the courses I'm taking are interesting, I feel more or less ready to begin the dissertation, and feel like instead I'm in effect being asked to do a second masters, which makes me feel like I'm wasting my time. The level in the classes also isn't great as many people are straight out of undergrad and so in some cases have never even sat in a seminar before. I feel as though, therefore, that going to Europe to do my PhD suit me much better at this stage of my academic career.

- I had heard that US sociology tended towards the quantitative, and so made sure I picked a department which had people working with a variety of methods. Upon arriving though, I've realised that the dominance of stats is such over here that we grad students all have to undertake extensive training on quantitative stuff (at least three mandatory courses) even if we aren't planning on using it in the future. Now, again I understand this might not seem a big deal to American students, and I understand it's probably necessary in order to get a job over here- but again, this doesn't apply to me. Secondly, I also realise it's necessary to at least understand all major methodological approaches, but so much (at the expense of others- I'd like to do some complexity theory, or network analysis, which I won't have chance to) seems like a waste of time for me in particular. It also means that regression is considered the default method, meaning this dominates discourse around the discipline. This was a shock to me, coming from an M.A where not one person in my cohort used regression models in their thesis. This was a very prestigious M.A, it's just that the terrain of the discipline is considered pretty differently in Europe. I obviously feel like I don't fit in very well with the way things work in the US in this regard. I now realise, I think, why I didn't get into a lot of schools in the US- I got accepted to Oxford in the UK (but couldn't get funding) but not some 15-30 ranked schools in the US, and couldn't figure out why- now I think it is because of my lack of stats background and relatively unimpressive score on the quantitative part of the GRE. So I ended up at a middle ranking US school, when, if I can find funding, I'm pretty sure my academic record would get me into a top 10-15 programme somewhere in the EU.

- Lastly, my parents' health is getting steadily worse, and now realising how long I would be away for if I stay here, I am thinking more and more that I would prefer to be at home sooner rather than later (or at least within a 2 hour, 50 euro flight of it, as opposed to an 8 hour, $500 flight at the moment).

So, really I am not posting to ask whether I should stay or not as I have more or less made up my mind. I am instead asking for advice about how to handle it. I would be applying in the next month or so, but have been told by several people that I don't need letters from my current department for this as it's too early for them to know me anyway. This means I possibly could apply without telling them anything. I don't want to go behind anyone's back though, and feel I should be honest about my situation. The question is when? While I won't have decisions until just after the beginning of next semester, does there seem any point to me continuing next here semester? It might look better on my C.V if I do a full year, but in any case are the school going to realistically want me to stay if I tell them I want to be elsewhere before next semester starts? I have a T.Aship, but they have a surplus of T.As and so I don't think they would miss me from that angle, probably they would prefer to save the money if they know I am not going to be around after the first year.

In the end, I don't want to annoy people, and I realise that, even being here for one semester I am eating up funds which, if I leave, have basically been thrown away from the point of view of the department. I am really wondering what the best thing to tell them is, and when is the best time to say it, to try and make the process as smooth as possible. Any suggestions are very much appreciated as, obviously, I can't talk to people here about any of this.

Thanks!

[jacib]

I'd talk to your head of graduate studies. Or don't, depending. But if there are faculty you trust, talk to them, or talk someone from your masters program. They will know what "looks worse" better than random people on the internet will. How long will it take you to get a masters, and would it be worth your time to stay there for it? If you leave after 6 months or 12 months without a degree, I doubt it will make a difference. 7 to 8 years might be normal, but also keep in mind that that implies a range of people from 5 to 10 years at least. At my school, average is around 6 year I think, and that is going down (mainly because of increased funding), but I know I will be on the higher end of my school's numbers because I don't have the methods training I want and I don't have the background I want, either. That said, I can see one or two kids in my program who already have their methods, and in one case, ,might even already have her data, (both European incidentally) so conceivably put their nose to the grindstone and crack it out in four years if they really, really worked it (and got outside funding to avoid the TA work). Could you go through a few miserable semesters and get all your course work out of the way sooner? That's what one of my professors told me his Ph.D. adviser told him to do years ago: take 12 classes his first year, get done with all the course work, finish up his dissertation in the next three, and be out at the end of year four (to be fair his adviser is well known for being... eccentric. And brilliant). Some programs can be flexible, I know people who got a random class to count as their "advanced theory" class. See if your program would let you get away with a different type of methods class instead of stats.

That said: maybe this isn't the right place for and you really should go try again. Is it too late to apply this year? You'd have to work it out with your head of graduate studies, presumably, in order to transfer. If you feel like it is too late, keep in mind that a three year degree in Europe would leave you at the same age as a five year degree in America. If I were to transfer, it would really, for me, have to be the last thing. At least talk to your head of graduate studies about your concerns about age, distance, etc, and how you want to get out of there as quickly as possible. I know of people who were able to get outside funding and not have to TA... which in some cases means not even having to be on campus after their first two years (obviously not being on campus has drawbacks to it)

I can't imagine very many people have been in your exact situation. That said, I am an American who worked in Istanbul for three years, and being an ocean apart from my family was very, very difficult for me, especially when two family members got ill.

Hi

I'm from the UK, and just started a PhD in the US. Already I am pretty sure that it's not for me, though, and I want to apply to start again in the UK or elsewhere in Europe next year. This might seem hasty, but there are a few reasons:

- I had no idea grad school would take so long here. I took advice from an old American Prof. I had (who therefore went through grad school decades ago) who told me to expect 5-6 years, with a year or two off as I was entering with a 2 year M.A. My new department also told me before I came that I would be expected to go through much quicker since I already have 5 semesters of graduate level work (and an 80,000 word thesis) under my belt. As it turns out, though, I can only waive a couple of courses, and average completion time here seems to be 7-8 years. That last part might not be a shock to Americans reading this, but I have friends on very highly rated programmes in the UK, Germany, Holland and Australia who will get a PhD in 3-4 years (in fact they might get thrown off the programme if they don't finish in 4). The difference, I suppose, is that outside the US you generally have to enter with a masters, which substitutes for the initial coursework component on a US PhD (though you still have to do some methods training). I realise that I for a job in the US an American PhD is a big advantage, but I'm not intending to work in the US anyway, and anywhere else (except maybe Canada) a European one is seen as just as valuable. I'm also on the older side for just starting grad school, and don't want to be looking for a first job at 40. Though some of the courses I'm taking are interesting, I feel more or less ready to begin the dissertation, and feel like instead I'm in effect being asked to do a second masters, which makes me feel like I'm wasting my time. The level in the classes also isn't great as many people are straight out of undergrad and so in some cases have never even sat in a seminar before. I feel as though, therefore, that going to Europe to do my PhD suit me much better at this stage of my academic career.

- I had heard that US sociology tended towards the quantitative, and so made sure I picked a department which had people working with a variety of methods. Upon arriving though, I've realised that the dominance of stats is such over here that we grad students all have to undertake extensive training on quantitative stuff (at least three mandatory courses) even if we aren't planning on using it in the future. Now, again I understand this might not seem a big deal to American students, and I understand it's probably necessary in order to get a job over here- but again, this doesn't apply to me. Secondly, I also realise it's necessary to at least understand all major methodological approaches, but so much (at the expense of others- I'd like to do some complexity theory, or network analysis, which I won't have chance to) seems like a waste of time for me in particular. It also means that regression is considered the default method, meaning this dominates discourse around the discipline. This was a shock to me, coming from an M.A where not one person in my cohort used regression models in their thesis. This was a very prestigious M.A, it's just that the terrain of the discipline is considered pretty differently in Europe. I obviously feel like I don't fit in very well with the way things work in the US in this regard. I now realise, I think, why I didn't get into a lot of schools in the US- I got accepted to Oxford in the UK (but couldn't get funding) but not some 15-30 ranked schools in the US, and couldn't figure out why- now I think it is because of my lack of stats background and relatively unimpressive score on the quantitative part of the GRE. So I ended up at a middle ranking US school, when, if I can find funding, I'm pretty sure my academic record would get me into a top 10-15 programme somewhere in the EU.

- Lastly, my parents' health is getting steadily worse, and now realising how long I would be away for if I stay here, I am thinking more and more that I would prefer to be at home sooner rather than later (or at least within a 2 hour, 50 euro flight of it, as opposed to an 8 hour, $500 flight at the moment).

So, really I am not posting to ask whether I should stay or not as I have more or less made up my mind. I am instead asking for advice about how to handle it. I would be applying in the next month or so, but have been told by several people that I don't need letters from my current department for this as it's too early for them to know me anyway. This means I possibly could apply without telling them anything. I don't want to go behind anyone's back though, and feel I should be honest about my situation. The question is when? While I won't have decisions until just after the beginning of next semester, does there seem any point to me continuing next here semester? It might look better on my C.V if I do a full year, but in any case are the school going to realistically want me to stay if I tell them I want to be elsewhere before next semester starts? I have a T.Aship, but they have a surplus of T.As and so I don't think they would miss me from that angle, probably they would prefer to save the money if they know I am not going to be around after the first year.

In the end, I don't want to annoy people, and I realise that, even being here for one semester I am eating up funds which, if I leave, have basically been thrown away from the point of view of the department. I am really wondering what the best thing to tell them is, and when is the best time to say it, to try and make the process as smooth as possible. Any suggestions are very much appreciated as, obviously, I can't talk to people here about any of this.

Thanks!

[beekeeper]

Thanks for that, it's useful advice and I understand where you're coming from. I do think whatever I do I'll have to talk to the head of the grad programme about my concerns rather than just walking in and saying I'm leaving without seeing if they can help me out. I will of course ask, but unfortunately, there doesn't seem, from what I can tell, to be a lot of flexibility here- funding means we can only take three courses per semester, with a very small number of electives outside the department, and a pretty limited range of courses offered within it each semester. Having talked to faculty at the beginning of the year, there was only one example of anyone here getting finished in 5 years (the least time anyone has ever taken) that anyone can remember- 3 is required for the coursework (ie the M.A, of which I might be able to waive a couple of courses), and then there are further hurdles before getting to ABD status. Let's say optimistically that I can get done with this in 3 1/2 years- even if I want to be out of here in 5 1/2, that means working on a dissertation for 2 years, whereas in Europe I can spend 3 or 4 years more or less just on that, working on the area I want to without having to jump through all these other hoops first, and probably produce something a lot better as a consequence.

In any case, even if I could get through the coursework at an accelerated rate, this only helps me out in one way. I do think I need more methods courses (which I'd get elsewhere, and which would be more tailored to my needs, hopefully) but what I don't need is to do is lots more theme courses. Presumably this requirement is to give grad students a good survey of the discipline and give them ideas on what they might write about for their dissertation. The thing is that I've already spent 5 semesters doing this, and so I already think I have these things. It's not that I don't find these classes interesting, or that I'm not learning anything, it's just that you could spend 50 years taking new classes and still be learning something each time. Secondly, I just feel like I'm much better suited epistemologically to the kinds of research environments I can find on the other side of the Atlantic ie more theoretically than empirically-grounded (though they're not all like that, of course).

It's not too late for me to apply for entry to somewhere else in 2011/12, if that's what you mean, so I would be losing a year, but not more than that. However, the way the funding system works in the UK means I really need to be getting my applications in this month. I've had some advice from a prof from my masters who says I don't need to tell the people here and could just go ahead with making applications elsewhere, then stick around if it falls through, but the problem there is that I'd probably get my decisions back in late January, exactly at the point the next semester starts, which is really not a good time to be informing people that I'm hanging around and sucking up funding for a few more months before heading out. Also, I'd imagine any profs getting my application now would get in touch with people from my current department to find out what was going on.