Literacy and Grad Students

[excel]

And, by the way, Minnesotan, it struck me during your first post in the other thread that you are not all that concerned about deciding between your grad school options. I am curious, am I right or wrong? And, if I am right, may I know why you are not concerned about the important matter of deciding between graduate school options?

[pointedears]

Just so we're clear, nobody has called anyone any names during the course of this discussion, so please stop whining about that.

Nobody is talking about this discussion in particular.

The only reason you folks have your panties in a bunch is because I've been playing around, using a sarcastic tone of voice while busting your humps about the highly annoying method of communication you choose to employ. If you honestly take yourselves so seriously that nobody is allowed to bring you down a notch when you get up on your high horse, then you're going to have a horrible time during grad school. I mean it.

If you think it's ok to let people insult you to stay in gradschool, thats your point of view. I however believe in self respect no matter where I go.

Someone (excel, I think) used the example of the f-bomb as an appropriate word for this forum, in an attempt to justify idiotspeak. Curses of any sort, especially if directed at another person, are not appropriate. The difference is that we realize adults will use that sort of language on occasion, and we are all adults here, so we can handle it. On the other hand, there is no occasion where a grad student should attempt to communicate in the manner of a twelve year old girl. It will always be inappropriate.

The point was to refute the 'professionalism' concept going on. No matter how adult one is, that language is not professional.

I think the Chronicle's rules are a good thing to emulate. We are budding professionals around here, not a bunch of drunken frat boys. Yes, we can give each other (and our profs) a little hell, but this should serve a therapeutic purpose, only. In general, this should be a professional atmosphere.

So one should be a vegetarian because killing animals is bad. Or maybe one can kill animals only if they want to eat it, not otherwise. Actually, one can kill animals they want to eat only if they promise to serve it tastefully. And so on...See what I mean?

You need to remember, though, that jokes are allowed in a professional atmosphere. It's time you stopped taking yourselves so seriously. I know I don't.

Yes. But how hard is to understand that if more than one person is getting offended at your jokes, they are not exactly funny?

[pointedears]

Also, I respect that you refrained from being snarky in the last post there. This tone would have been better for a discussion from the very start. All said and done, you are a mod. If you say "Use pink text only", I will follow it. Because hey, this is YOUR space and ofcourse you have put in a lot of work into building it and making it what it is today. Say you don't like text speak, ban whoever uses it, and move on. However this passive aggressive theme going on is so not cool.

[Minnesotan]

Yes. But how hard is to understand that if more than one person is getting offended at your jokes, they are not exactly funny?

Since when do good jokes need to be inoffensive? Do you think Eddie Murphy's "Raw" was inoffensive? It certainly made me laugh. What about Sarah Silverman? I'm not a huge fan myself, but she says the occasional funny thing, despite going out of her way to offend people.

I think my point holds: you're taking yourselves too seriously.

As for excel, you're just being silly. You state that I'm not an authority, and therefore have no right to speak to this issue. What right do you have to push your views on people? Are you an authority?

Do you know what they call people who support a rule of behavior for others, but break it themselves? Hypocrites! Frankly, I don't care if I offend hypocrites, because they offend me.

[Minnesotan]

Also, I respect that you refrained from being snarky in the last post there. This tone would have been better for a discussion from the very start. All said and done, you are a mod. If you say "Use pink text only", I will follow it. Because hey, this is YOUR space and ofcourse you have put in a lot of work into building it and making it what it is today. Say you don't like text speak, ban whoever uses it, and move on. However this passive aggressive theme going on is so not cool.

Thanks.

And, no, I won't even be suggesting this policy to the other mods. It drives me nuts on a personal level, but that's my problem. I'm not going to attempt to change the rules of an entire community, just because I find that the actions of some members offend my sensibilities. =)

**Edit: I do, however, reserve the right to speak my mind, whether I am an "authority" or not. My original post asked a simple question in an obviously humorous manner. In response, excel said she would not take any more of my "nonsense," and tomsmith said I was petty and should direct my comments only to the "geeks" at the English Lit. forum. Now the opposition claims to be preaching from the moral high ground. I just don't see it.

[excel]

As for excel, you're just being silly. You state that I'm not an authority, and therefore have no right to speak to this issue. What right do you have to push your views on people? Are you an authority?

Do you know what they call people who support a rule of behavior for others, but break it themselves? Hypocrites! Frankly, I don't care if I offend hypocrites, because they offend me.

I did not push my views on anybody, unless supported by reasons... I do not authoritatively tell them what is and what isnt...or do you not understand the difference? Would you like to provide an example of where I have authoritatively tried to impose my views on another person???

[excel]

And oh yeah, now you are talking of hypocrites are you??? You have been talking of professionalism and consistently using vulgar language...and you talk of hypocrites?????

[pointedears]

Since when do good jokes need to be inoffensive? Do you think Eddie Murphy's "Raw" was inoffensive? It certainly made me laugh. What about Sarah Silverman? I'm not a huge fan myself, but she says the occasional funny thing, despite going out of her way to offend people.

These people get paid to be 'offending'. They earn a living out of it. Now this might just be a matter of opinion, but if there are two ways of reacting to something, I generally choose the civilized way. As long as something is not affecting me personally, I prefer being 'nice'. I am not proving anything by putting anyone down. And if I am getting bothered enough about something to not being able to put my POV forward without offending someone, I generally step away to get things back in perspective.

No one expects anyone to be all sunshine and daisies all the time, but general courtesy is what people do expect. But like I said, just a matter of opinion. If you just don't see how it is wrong to attempt humor by laughing at somebody, I guess you won't see it ever.

[historygirl]

Excel, for a person who was mortally offended by Minnesotan's minor chide, you haven't exactly been sunshine yourself in the last few posts. So perhaps you shouldn't call people hypocrites. Glass houses, and all that.

Secondly, I never said anything about professionalism, either. I simply stated that standard English is - and should be - a basic expectation among academics. It does not matter in the least whether this is a formal or informal forum. And, in response the the apparent assumptions about my example, the Chronicle forum is not anywhere close to stuff and formal, there is quite a bit of joking around, and even (gasp!) the occasional swear word. What there is not is textspeak.

[Minnesotan]

I did not push my views on anybody, unless supported by reasons... I do not authoritatively tell them what is and what isnt...or do you not understand the difference? Would you like to provide an example of where I have authoritatively tried to impose my views on another person???

"One more thing: if someone does not consider the content of a text with seriousness because there are a few instances of the use of "u" in place of "you", that person has an attitude problem. I do not respect such a person."

How's that? People who disagree with you deserve no respect. How much more clear can this be? Your views are worthy of respect, and the views of others are not. The rhetoric is quite clear -- everyone should come to your side of the issue so that they are worthy of respect.

It's funny. In the same breath, you disrespect someone and demand theirs. If you're not going to treat your opponent with respect, why should he treat you with any? What makes you so special?

[excel]

@ historygirl,

Yes, I have decided that it is time to rip Minnesotan apart. I believe that he has crossed the line of basic courtesy far too many times and just taking advantage of the fact that I am being courteous. I usually prefer to give courtesy the first chance, but I do not tolerate nonsense, as I have said before...

[excel]

One more thing: if someone does not consider the content of a text with seriousness because there are a few instances of the use of "u" in place of "you", that person has an attitude problem. I do not respect such a person."

How's that? People who disagree with you deserve no respect.]

"

Is that the meaning that you get from this?? I seem to have stated quite clearly that ...I do not respect people who do not consider the content of a text with seriousness because there are a few instances of the use of "u" in place of "you"...(and in light of my previous post), I do not feel obliged to care much whether they read my text or not...(text that is aimed to be helpful). So, why are you imposing this new meaning onto my quote...that people who disagree with me deserve no respect??

[Minnesotan]

And oh yeah, now you are talking of hypocrites are you??? You have been talking of professionalism and consistently using vulgar language...and you talk of hypocrites?????

I searched the entire thread, and the only word or phrase I've used that could even be considered mildly vulgar is "asses." Considering this word (and other forms of it) is used on prime time television, I hardly think I am out of line using it among members of an adult community. Moreover, I do not consider it vulgar, and to accuse me of "consistently" employing vulgar language in this argument is the furthest thing from the truth!

You have not been courteous at any point in this argument, and to make believe you're sinking to my level is absurd. You flew off the handle because I asked why it was so hard to spell out the word "you." After taking some abuse, I decided to fight back. Do not try to turn this into some war of morality, because neither of us are acting in a mature or professional manner.

[Minnesotan]

"

Is that the meaning that you get from this?? I seem to have stated quite clearly that ...I do not respect people who do not consider the content of a text with seriousness because there are a few instances of the use of "u" in place of "you"...(and in light of my previous post), I do not feel obliged to care much whether they read my text or not...(text that is aimed to be helpful). So, why are you imposing this new meaning onto my quote...that people who disagree with me deserve no respect??

This part tipped me off: "I do not respect such a person."

[excel]

I think you are just thinking vulgar words while I meant vulgar in a rather broad sense. Besides, I am not reeferring to just this thread.

A small miscommunication here, sorry about that.

Anyway, here are your examples...

from original thread: " I say screw them, if they're going to dick you around like that" ...not that I disagree with the implied content here!

Following are vulgar manner of speaking, even if no vulgar word has been used:

-Is it really all that difficult to spell out the word, "you?"...in response to a post aimed to be helpful on an issue highly relevant to the context of this forum. This started things off.

-While I'd rather you swore than wrote in "idiotspeak", that's your call.

-It's sadder when people have to be humorless "asses" to make themselves feel superior. (You keep talking of adult community and professional community as if they are the same things).

Vulgar implication (and probably the worst of the lot):

-It's always the people like you who leave after their first year, and go brood for a living at the trendy coffee shops, downtown.

...I mean how can someone make a statement like that against another member in a forum that is meant to be supportive of prospective grad students?? This particular statement unambiguously violates the spirit of this forum.

These were entirely unprofessional statements, so I think it was hypocritical of you to talk about professionalism.

[excel]

This part tipped me off: "I do not respect such a person."

I had defined "such a person"...and it sure was not "someone who disagrees with me."

[excel]

"You flew off the handle because I asked why it was so hard to spell out the word "you.""

You make it sound as if you had nicely asked me...and if you had done so, I would have politely agreed not to use "u"...but, how many people have to find your post offensive before you realize that the way you had raised the issue was offensive??

[luvalicious]

"You flew off the handle because I asked why it was so hard to spell out the word "you.""

You make it sound as if you had nicely asked me...and if you had done so, I would have politely agreed not to use "u"...but, how many people have to find your post offensive before you realize that the way you had raised the issue was offensive??

excel, if Minnesotan had asked you "nicely," would you have taken less offense? Was the part that bothered you that he seemed to be dismissing what you said, or that he was insulting how you wrote it? Just curious.

Irregardless of how he phrased it, you are under no obligation to follow his "advice," as the comment was his opinion, not some sort of official censure. And while you might not care for his tone or his responses - I certainly don't, always - but he has just as much right to them as you do to your "u's." Frankly, if you find his tone so unprofessional, why do you respond to it in kind with statements such as it being "time to rip Minnesotan apart?" I don't find this to be a "professional" or even mock-professional place at all, but it seems that you would want to avoid sinking to that level, if for no other reason than to avoid looking like a hypocrite.

Further, you said

if someone does not consider the content of a text with seriousness because there are a few instances of the use of "u" in place of "you", that person has an attitude problem. I do not respect such a person."

which to me, and apparently I'm not the only one, reads as "if you don't agree with me (that I can write like this and have something of value to say), then I don't respect you." Which is fine, because I'm certain that it could go both ways. I believe that you can write like that if you so choose, and I believe that I won't take it seriously because the already shaky presumption that you're my peer becomes further deteriorated when you write like one of my students. If you are willing to accept that when you write in that manner, some people will not take it seriously, then good for you. You said that you didn't care if they even read it or not. What's the argument then?

[historygirl]

This smacks of a person in the middle of grad application-itis. I will therefore not go into attack mode. I will say, though, that textspeak indicates to others that the speaker is, in fact, an immature 12 year old. While that may not be the case, it is the immediate reaction of a large contingent of people. It is not "their problem"; it is your problem, as you are the speaker. That being said, judging from your posts on this, excel, I would say that you are a bit immature and need to get over it. In this case, the textspeak seemed to do its job as an indicator.

I'll also say that anyone who has ever been offended by Minnesotan's posts needs to grow a much thicker skin if you're going to make it in academia. Honestly. Academia is not for the faint of heart, and I'm not talking about just pressure. Between this and the "hurtful rejections," I feel like I'm surrounded by fragile snowflakes. Man up, people.

[excel]

excel, if Minnesotan had asked you "nicely," would you have taken less offense? Was the part that bothered you that he seemed to be dismissing what you said, or that he was insulting how you wrote it? Just curious.

Of course, if he had politely asked me I would have not taken offense at all. I already indicated so in my main reply to historygirl. Both.

Irregardless of how he phrased it, you are under no obligation to follow his "advice," as the comment was his opinion, not some sort of official censure. And while you might not care for his tone or his responses - I certainly don't, always - but he has just as much right to them as you do to your "u's."

Right, I agreee with you. As I have repeatedly said, I have no problem with someone liking or disliking the use of "u". However, in the originial post, he clearly came across as demanding that I write in a certain way. Do you disagree?

Frankly, if you find his tone so unprofessional,...

I am not saying that we have to be professional here or anything like that. It is not any lack of professionalism I am attacking...I am attacking his saying that the forum should be professional on one hand and being unprofessional on the other. Please go back and find where he talks about professionalism.

As I said, I will not tolerate nonsense...and being drawn out of a situation where I was trying to be of help to another member, and being targetted time and again with snide remarks over the trivial matter of use of "u" strikes me as such...

Regarding the rest of your quote, please read my original reply to historygirl again...I have made a clear point that when the writer does not have anything to benefit and is writing in a free forum, s/he need not feel obliged to take on the burden of making readers make read his/ her post. The burden is on the reader, not on the writer. Clearly, this is not the case in all communication, and I illustrated this with my example of publications. This is a fundamental point...so, am I clear?

I would really urge you to carefully read my original reply to historygirl. That actually contains the gist of my position on this whole matter, and I have not really said much new since then.

[historygirl]

Pls rd 1st rply - thx.

Is that what you meant?

[Minnesotan]

Man up, people.

Haha!

To be honest, I wasn't trying to offend anyone in the first few responses. I was trying to make some funny remarks to bring my point to light in an amusing manner. Maybe it was another instance of the internet not communicating the wry smile on my face as I razzed my fellow freakers-out.

Anyway, this has gotten a bit out of hand. I made my point three pages ago, and if it's going to cause excel's undies (which seem horribly afflicted by static cling) to continue to bundle, I don't want her (?) to burst a vein in her (?) eyeball trying to formulate semi-logical responses to my jabs.

My original point is pretty clear: People who use textspeak appear stupid to me, and they possibly appear stupid to others as well. If that is okay with you, then that is your choice, and you're welcome to make it in all future communications on this forum.

My second, and much more important point is: Some potential/grad students really need to learn to take themselves less seriously. This kind of attitude, especially when combined with emotional fragility or feelings of entitlement, will be harmful to you, to your colleagues, and to academia as a whole. Nobody owes you anything, and we are not required to think, much less tell you repeatedly, how great you are. If you need that kind of reassurance, or if people need to walk on eggshells around you, HistoryGirl is right -- you have chosen the wrong line of work.

[pointedears]

I really don't know what the fuss is about. Point one, if you are opposed to the idea of chatspeak, say so and move on. The thread is for discussing the same. It is not called 'attack the text speakers'. Point two, I am just saying that a point can be made without being rude. If you really think I need to man up because I need to accept the fact that people WILL throw insults at you for no reason at all, I disagree. I am ok with opinion, I am ok with open criticism, even name calling, but I hate passive aggressive behavior like nothing else. That's it. I guess everyone here realizes what they've been doing. If the mod here really thinks that they were not being rude without a reason, more power to them.

Anyways, my apologies to anyone I might have offended(I know how passive aggressive this sounds, it's not meant to be). Peace.

[excel]

This smacks of a person in the middle of grad application-itis. I will therefore not go into attack mode. I will say, though, that textspeak indicates to others that the speaker is, in fact, an immature 12 year old. While that may not be the case, it is the immediate reaction of a large contingent of people. It is not "their problem"; it is your problem, as you are the speaker. That being said, judging from your posts on this, excel, I would say that you are a bit immature and need to get over it. In this case, the textspeak seemed to do its job as an indicator.

I'll also say that anyone who has ever been offended by Minnesotan's posts needs to grow a much thicker skin if you're going to make it in academia. Honestly. Academia is not for the faint of heart, and I'm not talking about just pressure. Between this and the "hurtful rejections," I feel like I'm surrounded by fragile snowflakes. Man up, people.

It is true that I am very focused (ok, stressed) on selecting the best offer right now, so I probably find Minnesotan's diversion to a relatively trivial matter more annoying than I would have otherwise done.

I will not try to change your opinion about my maturity and "faintness of heart" because it (your opinion) is of no consequence really. The people in my field who know me already know whether I am mature or not etc.

I have already spent significant time in academia...and quite successfully, if I may add. But, thanks for your advice. Since you were nice enough to give me an advice, let me give you a couple. Here goes: 1) To be successful in academia, one needs to strive for depth in one's thinking. 2) One should not jump to conclusions.

I wonder what you will think...when you see someone amble into your conference session in a short and old T-shirt (where everyone else is suited and booted), and discuss stuff with you...maybe you wont take him seriously.

[Minnesotan]

If you really think I need to man up because I need to accept the fact that people WILL throw insults at you for no reason at all, I disagree.

Pointed: just so you know, I wasn't trying to attack you, and I'm sorry if you felt I was. Like I've said a few hundred times now, I have been having a laugh at the expense of the textspeak crowd. If people can't take a joke (again, I'm not trying to be rude or attack you), then yes, they do need to grow a thicker skin.

How on earth did you people make it through junior high?