Thoughts on transferring?

[iheartplato]

This application process has not exactly worked out as well as I had initially hoped. Though I am waiting on one more school (which seems unlikely), I am left with the option of attending a roughly 2nd-tier school, unfunded, or a roughly 4th tier school, funded. Not exactly an ideal choice. These would both be for PhD programs--I did not apply to any pure masters programs, though in retrospect now I wish I had. Waiting for another year to re-apply is not an option for me, nor would it really help since the same weaknesses in my application will exist next year unless I get some additional scholarly work/contacts in the field (and GPA boosting) under my belt.

Has anyone taken (or known of anyone who has taken) the route of attending a lower-tier PhD program and transferring to a more reputable program after a couple of years? Is this a viable option, or unwise?

Any advice is appreciated. I'm pretty stumped on what to do at this point.

Thanks.

[yoon7724]

I personally do not have anything enlightening to say to your exact question, but just out of curiosity, did you not apply to Chicago? Chicago offers MAPSS with some (and in some cases, full) funding--of course, you'd have to pay for your living and miscellaneous costs. I do not know if the deadline for that program has passed, but a program of such caliber might be of some help. Plus as far as what i know, i strongly would urge you to apply for the 1st or the 2nd tier MA programs for it would situate you much better than the plan you described above-to trasnfer from a lower-tier Ph.D. program to a higher one.

[MissingVandyCandy]

I'm not going to say it can't be done, and I claim no authority of expertise in this area, however, I would encourage you to keep in mind that transferring in most cases would need to be done quite delicately. It is entirely, different than transferring undergraduate institutions or even amongst law schools because the relationship between doctoral students and faculty is normatively different than the relationship between students in undergrad and professional schools. The relationship is more colleague like, less vertical though not entirely lateral which means that when you ask or give notice that you are looking to migrate to greener pastures you are essentially leaving a job which as many of us know from the real world is its own animal that comes complete with a host of feelings on the company's side (bitterness, resentment, jealousy)... again these things can certainly be mitigated or in certain cases made not to exist if you have a particularly affectionate (probably not the best verbage) relationship with faculty who in fact recognize that your aims cannot be met by the department.

In cases where you develop those relationships with faculty who will go to bat for you and think it is in your best interest to transfer than I wouldn't envision a problem, however, developing that level of candor may be difficult. It strikes me that the best way to make that happen is stress that despite your affection for the department your areas of focus and interest have evolved and there simply aren't enough experts in your area to support the research and that you hear cutting edge activity in area X is blooming in another department (though I wouldn't tell Ohio State that you are leaving for Michigan... NEVER GRADUATE GO BUCKEYES!) - (not an OSU fan just like the commericial)... anyway my point is it can probably be done, other posters can speak to how they went about it, but it's not going to be a process anything like law school where the faculty expect and in fact many times encourage the top 5 percent of a class at a tier 2 school to transfer... it is literally status quo there. Probably not so in doctoral programs.

[alanapsci]

Thanks for the insight missingvandycandy. I am in a similar situation to iheartplato in the fact that I was accepted at a lower tier university, I already have my MA (and do not want to go back for that), but think I can move further up the ladder. I am going to accept the lower tier acceptance since it comes with funding. However, I want to move to greener pastures even if it is just up the ladder a few rungs. Does anyone suggest waiting one year? Or should one wait two years? I guess to say, what is the optimal time to try again?

Really, the only thing that I can improve would be my GRE scores and maybe a little bit on my SOP but no reason to say, head back to get another MA.

[MissingVandyCandy]

Ok now I am really stepping out on a limb in speaking to the technical/structural issues of timing given my actual unfamilarity with the process of transffering doctoral programs myself, however, it would seem to me that you'd want to go after getting the M.A. entirely. M.A.s themselves are probably a lot easier to transfer and enter another school ABD, than having to navigate two schools policies regarding requirements on minutae like methods courses, foreign language requirements, etc etc... again this is just a guess but I would assume waiting til you're close to ABD would be preferred.

[realist]

In my experience, transferring "up the ladder" does not happen very frequently. In the 5 years that I was in residence in my PhD program, only one student transferred "in" from a lower-ranked school, and this lower-ranked school was overseas.

This is just my experience at one school. I have no idea how representative this is.

I do know that people from one program can be "in residence" at another program for an extended period of time. Gary King at Harvard, for example, frequently takes on students from other lesser-ranked programs. But this isn't a transfer, this is a visiting position. Students can also, on occasion, change departments when their adviser leaves--when Chris Achen moved to Princeton from Michigan, some of his students came too. (Apparently, my examples today are coming from big-name methodologists.)

I have one friend who started his PhD at a lower-ranked school and transferred to a great department, but his story is entirely different from the scenarios that I have seen on this blog (i.e. "I'll just try to transfer.") He started a lower ranked school and was prepared to be happy there, but after a couple of weeks one of his advisers sat him down and told him that he was a future star and needed to transfer. This adviser then pulled the strings to make it happen. So keep this in mind. He didn't start out looking to transfer, he was identified by the faculty as someone who should.

So my advice? Don't count on transferring. This isn't college. PhD programs invest substantial resources in their students, and expect them to stay. Plus, imagine how this would work. Are you going to ask the faculty at your current school, "you know, I think I'm better than this program, so can you write me a letter that says so?" For those of you who are looking to transfer because you're unhappy with your current placement, I wish you the best of luck, but do not count on this happening. In general, I think it is a terrible idea to start a PhD program that you have no desire to finish. It's a waste of your time and money, and theirs as well.

[iheartplato]

Thanks for the info guys...it is helpful. And yoon, no, I didn't apply to Chicago MAPSS--I'm pretty sure most deadlines for Fall have passed by now though, unfortunately.

MissingVandyCandy, I definitely see your point about the delicate situation that would arise from attempting to transfer--I guess I was just hoping that it was more of a common occurrance and therefore could delude myself into thinking it's a super idea. You're right that it will likely be entirely different than undergrad or law school transfers, and as such, I don't know that I'm willing to put myself through it. Ughhh decisions are so difficult~!!!

Timing-wise, for me, I definitely wouldn't consider leaving until the masters degree would be completed. It would then give me a masters thesis (ie, good writing sample), better grades/coursework, and by then I'd have developed relationships with potential rec writers as well. Those were the main areas my app needs strengthening in--GREs and SOP I think are strong. Alanapsci, I wish I could speak more to your timing issues, since you already have the masters degree. I would roughly guess that 2 years would be a better option, if only to give you adequate time to build your strength as a applicant...especially considering that the application processes tend to begin nearly a year in advance of your intended semester start, anyway!

I'm still at a loss for what to do personally, but do appreciate the advice very much. Thanks a ton.

[bluewhenitsgray]

I'm sure there are good M.A. programs still accepting applications, if you're willing to go that route. Columbia's M.A. program, for example, accepts applications until April 1 I believe.

[iheartplato]

In my experience, transferring "up the ladder" does not happen very frequently. In the 5 years that I was in residence in my PhD program, only one student transferred "in" from a lower-ranked school, and this lower-ranked school was overseas.

This is just my experience at one school. I have no idea how representative this is.

I do know that people from one program can be "in residence" at another program for an extended period of time. Gary King at Harvard, for example, frequently takes on students from other lesser-ranked programs. But this isn't a transfer, this is a visiting position. Students can also, on occasion, change departments when their adviser leaves--when Chris Achen moved to Princeton from Michigan, some of his students came too. (Apparently, my examples today are coming from big-name methodologists.)

I have one friend who started his PhD at a lower-ranked school and transferred to a great department, but his story is entirely different from the scenarios that I have seen on this blog (i.e. "I'll just try to transfer.") He started a lower ranked school and was prepared to be happy there, but after a couple of weeks one of his advisers sat him down and told him that he was a future star and needed to transfer. This adviser then pulled the strings to make it happen. So keep this in mind. He didn't start out looking to transfer, he was identified by the faculty as someone who should.

So my advice? Don't count on transferring. This isn't college. PhD programs invest substantial resources in their students, and expect them to stay. Plus, imagine how this would work. Are you going to ask the faculty at your current school, "you know, I think I'm better than this program, so can you write me a letter that says so?" For those of you who are looking to transfer because you're unhappy with your current placement, I wish you the best of luck, but do not count on this happening. In general, I think it is a terrible idea to start a PhD program that you have no desire to finish. It's a waste of your time and money, and theirs as well.

Well, thanks for being forthright about your opinion on it, realist. It seems to be a bit of a Catch-22...I think I would be quite happy in the 4th tier funded program, barring the severe placement issues that seem to be in the inevitable result from completing a degree there. So I guess I need to decide which is the bigger risk--attempting to botch relationships with schools and professors in order to attain better chances at placement success down the road, or complete the degree at a low-ranked school and potentially damage my placement chances. Um. Is 11 am too early to start drinking?

[detroitfan]

I actually think it's quite common and I know several junior faculty at lower ranked PhD programs that frequently encourage and help their students transfer up. I wouldn't say there aren't some faculty that discourage it there, but it occurs at a decent rate. If the option is 2nd tier no funding or fourth tier funded masters, I'd opt for the masters. This isn't to say you'll be a slam dunk to get into better programs...But if you distinguish yourself at the MA program I think you have a good shot.

[JordanJames]

Um. Is 11 am too early to start drinking?

No, I started drinking an hour ago.

Also, I think Columbia has a late MA deadline, so you might want to check them out.

[MissingVandyCandy]

anyone who reads much of realists contributions on the cafe knows full well that his alias would more appropriately be titled, "defeatist." It's one thing to go into life with your eyes wide open, and another to never afford oneself the healthy human impulse to live outside of the box and break the mold... Realism is one thing, but if this attitude were so pervasive in society I suspect we would have fewer Rudy's and Lance Armstrong's and more "realists" who accepted their ball-less existence and stay at home, eat bon bons and watch Oprah rather than manning up and taking care of business from "lesser well known schools [god forbid]." Don't get too down plato, part of me thinks realist is the one living in a cave... err ivory tower (top 10 of course)... a tower so ensconsced in defeatism that I wouldn't piss on him if he caught on fire.

[silencio1982]

The only way I could see it working is if you were in a terminal MA program-- or at least only accepted for an MA and not a PhD. This happened to me- got in for an MA only at a PhD program, graduated with an MA, took 2 years off to work and now I'm going back to a higher ranked school for a PhD. There were a lot of MA only students in my program- I believe they accepted 17 the year I started. Most, if not all, of those people either left academia entirely after their MA or ended up doing a PhD somewhere else (in many cases, at a higher ranked school). So, though I was almost completely funded by the department for my MA, there wasn't this sense (at least that I know of) that I was somehow snubbing them by moving on. I would have had to reapply there to get into the PhD program and I think the MA program was structured for the majority of people to leave after 2 years.

So, with this story in mind, perhaps there is some way you can leave with an MA- do either of the departments award MAs terminally? If they do, and students are leaving in droves with MA in hand, perhaps you can just jump ship along with them and it won't be as big of a deal... especially if you still don't have funding at that point, I think professors would be more sympathetic for you trying to go somewhere with funding. I'm going to generalize here and say that professors are for the most part nice human beings, I think they would sympathize and help you out. But- there is a lot of feeling out the situation that's necessary- if the programs DON'T award terminal MAs I can see it being more taboo to leave.

Here's another suggestion, though- if you don't have funding anyway, why don't you try being a graduate student at large at a better school? You can take a few classes to beef up holes in your app, get a new writing sample and still stay in touch with the discipline- you could even start taking courses this summer if they're available and be ready to re-apply next winter. Then you wouldn't have to deal with this potentially sticky situation, or end up being stuck somewhere you're really unhappy.

[Peter]

iheartplato--

Here are my thoughts, again, for what they're worth.

1. When I was in a similar situation a couple years ago a prof at a top 20 suggested I go to a lower-ranked program (if funded), do very well, and attempt the transfer. I have met one student via the recruitment weekends that was able to do this, but I think they actually transfered DOWN and not up in the rankings. While it can be done, I think it is very tricky and uncommon.

2. Many MA degrees do have later deadlines (again, I'd push for your cheap, in-state tuition local state univ.). I actually called up my state school in August and asked if I could just start the program in a couple weeks. I'd be careful about Columbia or other pricey MA's, whereas if you're willing to foot the bill there you might as well take Georgetown's offer.

3. My friend accepted an unfunded offer at Georgetown for a PhD in History. While she was not funded in year one, she excelled in her coursework and has been funded every year since. Her advice: plan to pay for the first year, but if you do well, they'll find the money to keep you. This is, however, a gamble.

Good luck!

[Peter]

Ah, and as for the comment that you can take your MA and walk into a PhD ABD, that is absolutely false. To my great dismay I have learned that virtually all the "better" programs will make me retake all coursework (except methodology courses, which seem to transfer) at their dept. So, if you do the MA (I wish I knew this ahead of time), don't expect it to shave off time to PhD, except if you discover your dissertation topic along the way and can shave off time there. But you will be repeating virtually all of your graduate classes.

[realist]

part of me thinks realist is the one living in a cave... err ivory tower (top 10 of course)... a tower so ensconsced in defeatism that I wouldn't piss on him if he caught on fire.

Well, that certainly is a positive attitude.

I think about this issue much the same way that I think about the NBA. If you go to my home town, you'll find that every kid thinks that he's going to be a pro basketball player. I think it's great for kids to have dreams, but the fact of the matter is that chances are, the NBA isn't the ticket out for most of these kids. What they need to do is plan for the possibility that they won't turn pro as a basketball player. Failure to do so leaves kids with no options when they grow up. It's fine to dream to be Wade or Melo, but it would be a disaster to plan on it.

[MissingVandyCandy]

First of all, I wasn't the one being negative... it was an attempt at some levity. Don't Associate Professors still appreciate that? As a prospective doctoral student, I obviously have not passed my Political Theory comps with flying colors like you, but I think I know enough to say that a "realist" appreciates a little piss and vinager.

I mean you seriously couldn't have anticipated that you would lurk the grad cafe (which is mainly filled with people who are trying to start a career in academia and love the idea of that career) and expect to recommend a hyper-realist position in every post that makes Chronicle sob stories look less like the emotive drivel on Oprah's book club list and more like Pollyana prose and think that people will just soak up your offerings like a misquito grazing on blood at a nudist colony. It's not that folks on here don't want to live in a reality based world. We know academia is hard, but if you're coming down every time on the 'it can't be done' and 'it is rare' side of the equation a few of us are going to begin to reach for the salt shaker and conclude thou doth protest too much...

unless of course you are harvey mansfield or larry sabato (who actually is a hack, charlatan, and psuedo scholar whose pop scholarship and celeb styled aura make me want to barf- sorry LS fans).

As for your analogy re: wade and melo (great attempt at showing that profs are cool too)... Empirically that seems weak NBA vs. Tenure Track. Come on... again maybe not Harvard, but I'm sure transferring or going from MA to PhD is easier than the NBA. Look, I'm just joking around with all this a bit, but there is no need to come on this board and constantly bemoan the difficulty of the career in academia. No one is saying it's like getting a job in consulting, but do we always have to get the "defeatist" err realist perspective without any contra positives?

[bluewhenitsgray]

larry sabato (who actually is a hack, charlatan, and psuedo scholar whose pop scholarship and celeb styled aura make me want to barf

Yet, Christopher Hitchens?

Kidding, kidding (sort of).

[MissingVandyCandy]

The Hitch isn't a career scholar, killa. He's a journalist who from time to time takes a visiting position (New School I think). Plus he could take out Larry Sabato and that goddamn watercolor painting of UVa he is always blabbing in front of on the O'Reilly Factor with one hand tied behind his back and laced up on johnnie walker.

[AllFiredUp]

[detroitfan]

For what it's worth, about a quarter of the graduate students at the top 20 where I finished had masters from other schools. Of those, probably half were "moving up" and half were lateral transfers (advisors would leave, etc.) I have no idea if this is generalizeable to other programs (it sounds like it isn't). For most of these students it did increase the time to degree (most not doing field work finished in 6 I think).

Honestly, I don't think it's out of line to ask the lower ranked program if many of their students transfer. You'll get some older faculty or the occasional associate that will be upset, but many more are aware of the situation and willing to talk to you about it. I wouldn't "count" on being able to do it, and if you're looking to do something very specialized it's makes it even more unlikely, but in my experience it's not uncommon.

[alanapsci]

Thanks everyone for your insight... I guess maybe I am in at this lower tier school for the long run! I think I will however, give it a shot at trying to transfer, just for the fun of it (teasing of course). Realist, I am a little disheartened at your attitude of trying to "crush" the lower tier students. I would hope that you give more uplifting advice to your students in real life or yikes..... I think we all know in the back of our minds (for those getting into the less than "perfect" top 25) that we do have a much harder time at finding a place and should not believe 100% we will get a glorious job. However, I would be happy to work at say, Southern Maine, or Kentucky, where I have heard the freedoms of academic life are much greater in getting to choose your path and take your time at publishing ...... Anyway, Thanks everyone!

[JordanJames]

MissingVandyCandy said:

The Hitch isn't a career scholar, killa. He's a journalist who from time to time takes a visiting position (New School I think). Plus he could take out Larry Sabato and that goddamn watercolor painting of UVa he is always blabbing in front of on the O'Reilly Factor with one hand tied behind his back and laced up on johnnie walker.

True, also it is the New School that he frequently visits.

More importantly, that scene in Good Will Hunting is great (cliche, but I don't even care). But, I'd like to point out that there are more pathetic figures in that scene than the long haired loser. I would rather be that guy than 1 of the 3 stereotypical Harvard dorks standing behind him. That's why I'm giving MVC's response to Realist a 9.5/10. Had you compared him to a member of the Harvard posse, it might have merited a 10. Good job though.

Realist, I agree with almost everything you have said on this board, but your pessimism is getting quite annoying. I think everybody here realizes (at least by now) that it's harder to get a tenure track position when you go to a school that is below the top 25 (whatever that is) or that transferring is harder in grad school than in undergrad. But many of us don't aim to go to a school outside of the top 25 and do mediocre work, we are striving for excellence. If we don't achieve it, there will be a place in academia for us somewhere lower down the ladder, and for many of us that's better than taking a 9-5, working in a law firm or becoming a stock broker. For those that enter a PhD program and would like to transfer but are unable to do so, at least they have the opportunity to obtain their PhD at the institution they entered, prove themselves through their work and find a job somewhere. I don't believe that those of us who obtain a PhD from a lower school will end up on some street corner begging for change because our school was ranked 30 or 40 or 50.

I don't want to offend you and I don't think you're trying to be malicious, but I think it would help us a lot more to know what to do when we're in grad school (what conferences we should aim to present at, what topics are hot, etc.) instead of concentrating on how terrible our job prospects are if we're not at one of the 18 schools that are top 25 schools.

[MissingVandyCandy]

ammar--

i couldn't agree more. i too think 90 percent of what realist says is spot on in terms of being, well reality, however this guy's delivery and constant debbie downer b.s. could depress a high school cheerleader doped out on prozac. it's not that all of us think we are know-it-all hot shots (you'll notice from my posts that I constantly point out when I'm addressing a topic outside of my experience or area of expertise), however, as prospective phd students we would all benefit from more prescriptive advice as ammar points out than the tired routine of, "academia is hard, bag groceries." That sentiment doesn't exactly recommend itself.

[sundaymonday]

To the OP - have you considered just getting the MA from Georgetown, and transferring out if they can't fund you? The worst that can happen is you've paid for the MA out of pocket - and that's pretty much what other people are suggesting at this point. Your prospects for getting into a higher ranked PhD program after completing the MA might be better having attended a second tier, rather than a fourth tier school.

I can't imagine a reputable PhD program being surprised by or opposed to someone trying to transfer out because they're not funded by their current program. If they really like your work and want you to stay on, perhaps you can use it as leverage to get funding in year 2 or 3?

"academia is hard, bag groceries."

Paper or plastic?