loan debt...how much is too much?

[HREeducation]

I don't want this to be a whining post or anything! I'm just wondering who else is going through the same thought processes as I am about facing the same astronomical amount of debt as I am. I got accepted into a masters at my dream school.......but with zero funding -- which will bring my loan totals, including undergrad, to almost 100,000! I should mention that being a recent grad, I really don't have much savings to speak of. I got offers at other schools, with up to half funding, but obviously they aren't my top choice, and most of the programs really can't compare. Is anyone else facing the prospect of taking on loans of this magnitude? And if you've already decided to, what are you doing to cope?!

Thanks for the info.......I still have to go to the visit days and check these places out, but anyone's input will help!

[pinot noir]

I am in a similar situation. I was just accepted to a program which is a dream for me, but I was offered absolutely no funding. The advisor told I was almost there, but I didn't quite make the cut for funding, which according to my understanding is not much anyway. I spoke with another faculty member who attended the program 10 years ago and she gave me the advice to find an external scholarship as that is how she paid for full tuition. She also informed me that the first year is definitely the hardest and I have heard this from multiple sources. Basically, the second year, MFA students can pick up classes to teach with a full tuition coverage and a $22,000 stipend. I have been mulling over this for days as I wait on other schools' admission. Needless to say, it has given me a mild ulcer, but I am definitely in the similar predicament when it comes to 'how much is too much?' $22,000 in New York might cover rent for a year. My professors says I would be silly not to accept (sigh!), but I don't know if the stress of debt is worth the degree :-/ I will check this thread to see what others say...

[HREeducation]

Thanks for the reply! It's nice to know others have this anxiety too. My program is only a 1 year program, so what you've said about second year funding doesn't apply to me. But, finding external funding is a good point! However, I think a lot of the deadlines have passed -- I'm not sure what world I was living in when I should have been applying for those. But yes, I hope others have some good advice for us...

[pinot noir]

Thanks for the reply! It's nice to know others have this anxiety too. My program is only a 1 year program, so what you've said about second year funding doesn't apply to me. But, finding external funding is a good point! However, I think a lot of the deadlines have passed -- I'm not sure what world I was living in when I should have been applying for those. But yes, I hope others have some good advice for us...

Yes, that was my dilemma as well. I went straight the the website that sponsored the woman I spoke to and the deadline was passed: NO EXCEPTIONS!

[sarmstrong]

Yes, that was my dilemma as well. I went straight the the website that sponsored the woman I spoke to and the deadline was passed: NO EXCEPTIONS!

I can't tell you what to do (sorry!), but I can at least tell you what $100,000 worth of debt is like. My husband got a law degree that ran him back about $100,000. Then, he didn't pass the BAR! On top of it, I'm aiming to get a masters, like you. He was able to defer for 6 months (which is usually an option), and we've just been saving as much as possible. When the loans come due the payment will be around $900 a month. So, it's like a second apartment rental. If you think you'll be able to afford that AND it's worth it to you to have to do that for years, then go with the more expensive program. If not, don't do it.

Don't know if that was any help, but it's the best I've got!

[Poppet]

I am in this spot too. The rule I've heard and which I've tried to share as much as possible, is that a manageable student debt can be no more than your lowest expected starting salary. Remember to calculate the taxes.

There are lots of student debt calculators online though, if you do a google search. They'll let you calculate based on your projected career path what your starting salary will be, and then you can plug in what the interest rate is on your potential loan, and how many years you have to pay it back and they'll calculate for you what your maximum debt load should be and how much your monthly payments should be.

[ZeChocMoose]

I don't want this to be a whining post or anything! I'm just wondering who else is going through the same thought processes as I am about facing the same astronomical amount of debt as I am. I got accepted into a masters at my dream school.......but with zero funding -- which will bring my loan totals, including undergrad, to almost 100,000! I should mention that being a recent grad, I really don't have much savings to speak of. I got offers at other schools, with up to half funding, but obviously they aren't my top choice, and most of the programs really can't compare. Is anyone else facing the prospect of taking on loans of this magnitude? And if you've already decided to, what are you doing to cope?!

Thanks for the info.......I still have to go to the visit days and check these places out, but anyone's input will help!

That's a tough choice HREeducation. I assume you are looking into the education field for a job after your master's degree. Are you going into teaching, policy, admin, or research? Different jobs, have different entry salaries-- although finding any to really off-set the 100K will be difficult. Can you find a job now w/o a master's? Sometimes working a couple years may help you save and be competitive for funding when you apply again. Can you go part-time for your master's? For the schools that offered you half funding, can you make them work?

I was faced with a similar situation when I applied for my master's programs. I applied to 5 schools and got full funding at 3 and no funding at 2. My top choice (when I was applying) was one of the schools that I received no funding. Since the prospect of going 60K in debt for a master's degree did not appeal to me, I quickly shifted my priorities to the 3 schools where I received full funding. After the campus visit, one of the schools out of the 3 really stood out. I enrolled there and had a great experience for a master's degree. Therefore, sometimes you can make a 2nd or 3rd choice school really work for you.

Good luck!

[VAPHD]

I don't want this to be a whining post or anything! I'm just wondering who else is going through the same thought processes as I am about facing the same astronomical amount of debt as I am. I got accepted into a masters at my dream school.......but with zero funding -- which will bring my loan totals, including undergrad, to almost 100,000! I should mention that being a recent grad, I really don't have much savings to speak of. I got offers at other schools, with up to half funding, but obviously they aren't my top choice, and most of the programs really can't compare. Is anyone else facing the prospect of taking on loans of this magnitude? And if you've already decided to, what are you doing to cope?!

Thanks for the info.......I still have to go to the visit days and check these places out, but anyone's input will help!

I like to live by the Suze Orman financial philosophies...she would probably say NO unless the Masters will get you a lot more money!. I wish I would have known about that when I racked up 70K in loans after receiving two Masters degrees (long story). Nevertheless, I have found that this debt takes forever to pay down! Sallie Mae, the company which services my loan, is a *itch. The more I pay against my loans the less they seem to go down...I am scheduled to make my final payment in 2036!!!!! If at all possible find another route...either with funding or another school. Far be it for me to tell you to reconsider your dreams, but unless your starting pay will allow you to easily pay this loan off within ten years....please think about it. After graduating, I love my job but really I don't get paid enough to put a significant dent into this debt. Now with a family, buying a home, vacations, etc.....I am always having to make sure that Sallie Mae gets her money. Yet another "woman" gets the best of me.... (only kidding)...but seriously....think, think , think...

[jlbigham]

I am in a very similar situation right now. I ultimately hope to get a PhD, but I applied to a few MA programs just in case I didn't get into a PhD program. At this point, I have been accepted to one PhD program from a school that ranks around #75 in my field, and I received full funding plus stipends that would cover my living expenses. However, I was also accepted to an MA program that ranks within the top 5 in my field, but it looks like I am not going to receive any funding. If I go to that school, I will also hit over $100,000 in loan debt. At this point I have absolutely no idea what to do. I visited the school where I am being offered full funding and really liked it a lot, but I am afraid I will regret turning down the other school considering that the program is supposed to be a lot better.

[ZeChocMoose]

I am in a very similar situation right now. I ultimately hope to get a PhD, but I applied to a few MA programs just in case I didn't get into a PhD program. At this point, I have been accepted to one PhD program from a school that ranks around #75 in my field, and I received full funding plus stipends that would cover my living expenses. However, I was also accepted to an MA program that ranks within the top 5 in my field, but it looks like I am not going to receive any funding. If I go to that school, I will also hit over $100,000 in loan debt. At this point I have absolutely no idea what to do. I visited the school where I am being offered full funding and really liked it a lot, but I am afraid I will regret turning down the other school considering that the program is supposed to be a lot better.

Is your program in Education? If it is, I assume then you are using the USNWR rankings since there are not many rankings for Education. I would be more interested in how they rank your subfield in education then the overall school of education. (I assume that you are citing a school of education ranking since USNWR usually only ranks the top 10 in each education subfield.) Even then, I am not sure I would value "the rankings" over more practical matters such as job placement, research opportunities, and program reputation.

Program reputation might sound like rankings, but it is less arbitrary than a specific number each year. Basically, what is the program known for, who are the most recognizable faculty, and what types of jobs are graduates offered? I also would make sure there are multiple faculty members that I would want to work with in case one or two leave while you are still a student. If this all seems good and you are only hesitating due to rankings-- then I wouldn't worry. Unless, it is is not really rankings you are concerned with and instead this low ranking (you feel) is a proxy for low program quality or weak academic rigor. I would say if you suspect a low quality program then that is a concern. How you figure this out is talking to current students and/or people in the field. I would also suggest doing more research into the program and the requirements to get a degree. If you find that the program is substandard (i.e. weak methodology requirements, course offerings do not offer breadth or depth of knowledge in field, dissertation requirements are weak) then I would suggest not going there.

For the master's program, I would not advise taking out 100K in loans for a master's in education. You will find that difficult to pay back.

Edited March 29, 2011 by ZeChocMoose

[jlbigham]

Is your program in Education? If it is, I assume then you are using the USNWR rankings since there are not many rankings for Education. I would be more interested in how they rank your subfield in education then the overall school of education. (I assume that you are citing a school of education ranking since USNWR usually only ranks the top 10 in each education subfield.) Even then, I am not sure I would value "the rankings" over more practical matters such as job placement, research opportunities, and program reputation.

Program reputation might sound like rankings, but it is less arbitrary than a specific number each year. Basically, what is the program known for, who are the most recognizable faculty, and what types of jobs are graduates offered? I also would make sure there are multiple faculty members that I would want to work with in case one or two leave while you are still a student. If this all seems good and you are only hesitating due to rankings-- then I wouldn't worry. Unless, it is is not really rankings you are concerned with and instead this low ranking (you feel) is a proxy for low program quality or weak academic rigor. I would say if you suspect a low quality program then that is a concern. How you figure this out is talking to current students and/or people in the field. I would also suggest doing more research into the program and the requirements to get a degree. If you find that the program is substandard (i.e. weak methodology requirements, course offerings do not offer breadth or depth of knowledge in field, dissertation requirements are weak) then I would suggest not going there.

For the master's program, I would not advise taking out 100K in loans for a master's in education. You will find that difficult to pay back.

My program is in education, and I completely agree with you about the rankings. I was using them to avoid naming the programs and to give a general idea of what I have to choose between. However, the program reputations pretty much match up with those rankings, and as far as subfield is concerned, the higher ranked program I mentioned is also ranked #1 in my subfield (I do not know how the other one ranks). When I applied, one of them was a school I wasn't sure I would get into because of how competitive it is, and the other was one I was fairly confident I would be accepted to because it isn't nearly as well known. The programs both fit my interests, and they both seem great from what I have read about them. I don't actually think the lower ranked program is lower quality by any means. However, I know that (unfortunately) names do carry a lot of weight, and I want to make sure I will be in the best possible situation after I graduate...BUT I don't know that the debt is worth any possible advantages when it comes to getting a job.

[ZeChocMoose]

My program is in education, and I completely agree with you about the rankings. I was using them to avoid naming the programs and to give a general idea of what I have to choose between. However, the program reputations pretty much match up with those rankings, and as far as subfield is concerned, the higher ranked program I mentioned is also ranked #1 in my subfield (I do not know how the other one ranks). When I applied, one of them was a school I wasn't sure I would get into because of how competitive it is, and the other was one I was fairly confident I would be accepted to because it isn't nearly as well known. The programs both fit my interests, and they both seem great from what I have read about them. I don't actually think the lower ranked program is lower quality by any means. However, I know that (unfortunately) names do carry a lot of weight, and I want to make sure I will be in the best possible situation after I graduate...BUT I don't know that the debt is worth any possible advantages when it comes to getting a job.

Okay-- so what I understand is that the PhD program is not ranked in your subfield whereas the master's program is in a department/program that is ranked #1. I don't know if you are aware or not, but the USNWR rankings only rank doctoral programs. I wouldn't try to use those rankings to extrapolate that this program is also #1 in your subfield for a master's experience. Instead, I would research if the master's students are treated well. Do they have the same or similar opportunities as PhD students (i.e. can they get involved in research (if that is something you are interested in), can you take a wide range of classes or do they restrict classes to "only PhD students," are faculty members accessible to master's students?, do master's students get accepted into "good" PhD programs (if you decide you eventually want the PhD)?). In my education subfield, master's and PhD students can be treated very differently depending on the program.

Also do you hope to pursue a faculty position (if you chose the PhD)? If you want to go into academia, my understanding is they do care about program reputation. Although, I am not sure how much actually and I have never been on a search committee for an open faculty position so I couldn't say exactly how this plays out. I would talk with faculty members in your field of interest and get their perspective on whether going to your specific PhD program will put you at a disadvantage.

If your end goal is "industry," I don't think rankings/program reputations have the same weight in deciding who to hire for these types of jobs . My understanding (and my practical experience working in education research) is that hiring decisions come down to the applicant's experiences (do they have experience with: policy analysis, research design, quant methods, etc), whether a specific level of degree is earned (if that is a requirement of the job), and personality fit with the culture of the organization. I have never witnessed a discussion about the reputation of an applicant's graduate program. (That being said though, it could happen. I have just never experienced it.)

It sounds like you have a tough decision and need to weigh a lot of factors. At the end of the day, I would go with what makes the most sense in the long run.

[jlbigham]

Okay-- so what I understand is that the PhD program is not ranked in your subfield whereas the master's program is in a department/program that is ranked #1. I don't know if you are aware or not, but the USNWR rankings only rank doctoral programs. I wouldn't try to use those rankings to extrapolate that this program is also #1 in your subfield for a master's experience. Instead, I would research if the master's students are treated well. Do they have the same or similar opportunities as PhD students (i.e. can they get involved in research (if that is something you are interested in), can you take a wide range of classes or do they restrict classes to "only PhD students," are faculty members accessible to master's students?, do master's students get accepted into "good" PhD programs (if you decide you eventually want the PhD)?). In my education subfield, master's and PhD students can be treated very differently depending on the program.

Also do you hope to pursue a faculty position (if you chose the PhD)? If you want to go into academia, my understanding is they do care about program reputation. Although, I am not sure how much actually and I have never been on a search committee for an open faculty position so I couldn't say exactly how this plays out. I would talk with faculty members in your field of interest and get their perspective on whether going to your specific PhD program will put you at a disadvantage.

If your end goal is "industry," I don't think rankings/program reputations have the same weight in deciding who to hire for these types of jobs . My understanding (and my practical experience working in education research) is that hiring decisions come down to the applicant's experiences (do they have experience with: policy analysis, research design, quant methods, etc), whether a specific level of degree is earned (if that is a requirement of the job), and personality fit with the culture of the organization. I have never witnessed a discussion about the reputation of an applicant's graduate program. (That being said though, it could happen. I have just never experienced it.)

It sounds like you have a tough decision and need to weigh a lot of factors. At the end of the day, I would go with what makes the most sense in the long run.

Thank you for the advice. It's always nice to hear from someone that has more experience in the field. I met with a professor at the university where I am currently finishing my undergraduate degree today, and he also gave me some good advice. I am going to visit one of the schools tomorrow (I visited the other a few weeks ago), so I am hoping I can figure out what is going to work best for me.