politics? philosophy?

[pianoise]

Hi everyone,

I noticed that someone posted on political philosophy below, but I thought mine was quite an unique issue, and I needed space to explain. Please bear with me as I elaborate ..

I just graduated 2 months ago and my grad applications didn't go too well, so I think I'll be applying again. I applied to about 4 schools, all political theory/philosophy, PhD program. I am also an international student.

While I'm not all too surprised why I didn't make it, I've been reflecting on what could have gone wrong, and among many things I thought perhaps my lack of focus on political science on my transcript let me down.

I did a double major in Political Science and International Relations, and Comparative Literature and Culture. I did CLC only because it offered courses that touches on issues such as ethics, justice, race/identity, etc. that I was more interested in than foreign policies and diplomacy. Because I was obviously more interested in the semi-political theory semi-philosophy courses offered from the CLC department, I engaged much more actively and did better (and enjoyed, alot) there than the courses from PSIR. Furthermore, half of my credit requirements for PSIR got filled from a year-long exchange program that I went to.

Thus, to summarize, the grades for my PSIR courses lie somewhere around above average while my grades for CLC are almost unblemished. Naturally, the closest professors I know are from the CLC department, and although I knew that this could be a disadvantage, I still got all my recommendation letters from them because I could count on them to write glowing letters for me. This makes me feel that perhaps the people at the university admissions did not see my performance (or 'allegiance') in PSIR satisfactory (or orthodox) and found me unsuitable for the political theory program.

So, my questions are:

1) Should I try again for political theory/philosophy, or should I just go for something else? I am really interested in the subject, but I feel that my interest is not really reflected in the transcript. This too, is not my fault because my school (it's really new) did not offer any courses on political theory when I was enrolled. Actually, there was one course which I missed unfortunately, but there were none after. I tried to cater to this by taking courses in CLC, but I think people view CLC as very different from political theory/philosophy.

2) If you think I should still go for political theory/philosophy, which programs do you recommend? I did some self-study on my own, even wrote a thesis on democracy using political philosophies of Hegel and Confucius, but I have not received any formal education in political theory. Is this really a problem?

3) I have been looking at some philosophy programs and they seem really interesting. Do you think I could be appealing to the philosophy department with my current CV and transcript? Or am I just doomed to go for either CLC or none?

Many apologies for the long post and the overlapping questions. I wanted to be comprehensive as possible so that I could get my dilemma heard. All these wouldn't matter if I weren't thinking of reapplying, but since I am, I thought it's worth asking before I try again.

[wtncffts]

I was waiting for someone in theory to respond, as they would know better, but my take is that philosophy may well be a better fit. In any case, if you're finding philosophy programs that you find intriguing, that may be a sign that that direction would be more suitable. However, I would also say that it's difficult to conclude why you didn't get in this time from what you've said. It may have been any number of things or combinations of things. You may have cast your net too narrowly as well.

On another note, I'm rather surprised your department had absolutely no offerings in theory. Not even an intro course? I'd guess that having no formal course credits for theory does have some bearing on your overall profile as a theory applicant.

[oasis]

Don't feel too bad. Admissions in normative political theory is ridiculously competitive.

You have a couple problems:

1. You applied to 4 schools, which is far fewer than the norm (All my advisers said to apply 10-12).

2. As a foreign student, you are further disadvantaged in normative theory admissions, which in my opinion is heavily dependent on LORs from known quantities in normative theory. It is really unfair, but that's how it is, and I'm thankful I'm not a (normative) theorist. If you were a formal/positive theorist, that's a different story.

3. Your undergrad in PSIR sounds more practitioner-oriented, and your CLC major, doesn't make it clear to me that you have a background or interest in normative political theory that shows you know what the subfield is about, what the current debates are etc.

If you want to try again for normative theory in Fall 2012/2013, it is not too late (I think the deadlines are end of this week or next?) to apply for terminal MAs, which may help fix problems 2 and 3, depending on where you go and how you do. You'll also learn more about the theory world and figure out more places you're a good fit for, fixing problem 1. You may also find that you like the other subfields of political science and make a switch, which would make your life a lot easier.

I would give you better advice if you told us more about your expectations and preferences.

Edited March 30, 2011 by oasis

[pianoise]

Thanks for the replies, I'm starting to be convinced that a MA in either political theory or philosophy is going to be a necessary step for me before I try my hand in a PhD program. Just have to take care of the tuition fees somehow ...

On 3/29/2011 at 9:15 PM, oasis said:

If you want to try again for normative theory in Fall 2012/2013, it is not too late (I think the deadlines are end of this week or next?) to apply for terminal MAs, which may help fix problems 2 and 3, depending on where you go and how you do. You'll also learn more about the theory world and figure out more places you're a good fit for, fixing problem 1. You may also find that you like the other subfields of political science and make a switch, which would make your life a lot easier.

I would give you better advice if you told us more about your expectations and preferences.

What? Applications for 2012 started already? But PhD applications start this September? I'm hoping this is a typo ...

Anyway, since you asked. I found myself more attuned to the normative theoretical approach and I prefer writing about arguments dealing with ethics and metaphysics than trying to piece together statistics to make a point. But at the same time, I don't want to be totally drowned in a world of my philosophical own, constantly frowning and thinking about matters about mind and body (not because it is irrelevant, but because I have no background in this area). So I've been looking for the middle ground that caters to both wishes and I found that Political Philosophy fulfills the task. It's theoretical, and at the same time it deals mainly with specific issues happening around the world. I also found the departments of Politics and Philosophy in certain schools generally incline towards this approach (e.g. New School of Social Research), and I am quite eager to pursue this science.

I've so far dealt mainly with Continental Philosophy and Critical Theory, and I'm most interested in Kant and Hegel's Phenomenology. While my PSIR courses were mainly practical oriented (because there were just no theoretical course available), all my CLC electives that I picked were courses that used philosophical texts to discuss ethics, justice, identity etc., or at least I wrote all my papers on such themes. My GPA overall is above average, but my GPA for CLC should be pretty high, since I always maintained getting A- or higher. I have professors recommending me to pursue further studies too.

So why not go for a PhD in CLC? My interest lies in ancient Greek thinkers, such as Plato and Aristotle, and I really wish to receive a formal education in either Political Theory or Philosophy. The History of Western thinkers really intrigue me, and I think both programs offer good trainings in this area. While CLC is still very interesting, I plan to eventually make contributions to the Political Theory / Philosophy field, and I have some reservations that a PhD in CLC may not have that much of a voice. Also, CLC is not all about critical theory; it is also comprised of Film Studies, Comparing literatures, and many other things, and I had to selectively filter out the ones that dealt with philosophical materials. I don't want to be doing this again during my graduate program.

Some other interests include: politics and religion, mass behavior, social thought, state-people relationships/identities, reinterpreting democracy, liberal communitarianism. I've been looking around the forum and other websites, and it seems that (for a phd) the New School, WUSTL, and Yale have attractive programs.

I hope these information are useful .. I kinda just said whatever I thought relevant. I wonder what are your opinions on my reservations to CLC are, if any. I am also quite convinced of going for MA in either political theory or philosophy hopefully after getting some scholarship from the university or external sources. Which programs do you think I should consider/reconsider?

Thank you very much.

[oasis]

What? Applications for 2012 started already? But PhD applications start this September? I'm hoping this is a typo ...

What I meant was, if you intend to apply for PhD programs to start Fall 2012 i.e. the deadlines are Dec 2011/Jan 2012, you only have eight months to prepare. If you apply Fall 2013, you have another year. If you apply for a terminal MA (to start Fall 2011, this September), which would give you one semester's worth of coursework by the Fall 2012 deadline, and allow you to finish the MA by the time you apply Fall 2013, the deadlines for those are very very soon. Like, this week.

I hope these information are useful .. I kinda just said whatever I thought relevant. I wonder what are your opinions on my reservations to CLC are, if any. I am also quite convinced of going for MA in either political theory or philosophy hopefully after getting some scholarship from the university or external sources. Which programs do you think I should consider/reconsider?

I'm not a theorist so I can't speak to which MA programs are best for that, but in general, some usual PhD feeder programs are Chicago MAPSS/CIR and Columbia QMSS, along with the usual terminal MAs at NYU, Columbia etc. These will give you a broader exposure. You should note that PhD admissions committees are holistic, that is, you might win over the theorists, but you have to impress the comparativists and IRists on the committee as well to make the cut.

Some terminal MAs have funding available, typically some kind of discounted tuition, offered on a competitive basis. In some rare cases they offer a full scholarship and stipend. In some other cases, you can apply for a TA job to help cover costs.

[action]

Philosophy graduate admissions tend to be even more competitive than political science, in large part due to the crisis in the humanities. Thus, the job market sucks a little bit more for philosophers (particularly true of someone who'd be more or less 'unorthodox') than it does for political scientists broadly, and political theorists specifically. My senseis that it'd be more challenging for you to get into top philosophy programs with no background in the field than it would be to get into top political science programs with little experience in your subfield. Further, I think if you search a bit harder you will find programs amenable to a more humanistic/cultural studies/theory style approach that would find your coursework relevant.

That said, it sounds like you would benefit from first delving a bit deeper into the world of political thought and staking out where exactly you situate yourself vis-a-vis long-standing traditions as well as contemporary debates within normative political theory. Once you do so I think it will become much more clear to you as to which discipline better suits your interests. Philosophers tend to have a very different approach to political theorizing than do political scientists -- they are less historically oriented, and even when they do historical work they tend to focus on a slightly different set of canonical figures than do political scientists. For example, in the US and UK philosophers tend to be less interested in the continental European tradition of philosophical and political thought; and they don't read Machiavelli, Montesquieu, Tocqueville, Marx, Weber, etc., all of which are central figures in political theory. In fact, you may want to read up on the continental / analytic divide in academic philosophy because from the look of things (i.e. your interest in Hegel) it may be relevant to you. These links may help you navigate the difference between studying philosophy and studying political science:

http://profs-polisci.mcgill.ca/levy/theory-philosophy.html

http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2004/09/grad_school_in_.html and http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2004/09/more_thoughts_f.html

Additionally, you may want to consider applying to MA programs in one of the two fields before you sign on for a PhD. This will both give you more exposure to the field you decide upon and boost your candidacy for PhD study.

[action]

Sorry, I wrote the post above prior to reading the recent exchanges in this thread. Hence some of it is irrelevant... anyway...

On 3/30/2011 at 11:09 AM, pianoise said:

I hope these information are useful .. I kinda just said whatever I thought relevant. I wonder what are your opinions on my reservations to CLC are, if any. I am also quite convinced of going for MA in either political theory or philosophy hopefully after getting some scholarship from the university or external sources. Which programs do you think I should consider/reconsider?

If you're interested in Continental political theory the MA program at the New School for Social Research in either philosophy or politics would be helpful. I know NSSR very well, so feel free to PM me for more specific info on faculty, funding, depts, etc.

From the interests you list I think political science is the discipline for you though, and not philosophy. But that's just my hunch.