Sociology Ph.D., Applying Fall 2011, Few Basic Questions

[Sociology1988]

General Applicant Profile:

Overall GPA.: ~3.89

GRE: Taking in late summer, assuming around 1250-1300 range, I'm not brilliant by any stretch, but expect a respectable score

Writing Sample: Thesis written this summer

Recommendations: Professors within solid program and large university

Research experience: Absolutely none other than thesis

Being that I have very little research experience, I am tremendously worried about applying to top universities this coming fall (hopefully top 25).

Questions:

1. If you plan on doing research in the coming year (say Winter/Spring/Summer 2012), can this experience be documented on an application, although it is presently unrealized?

2. Are applicants coming right out of undergraduate programs at a severe disadvantage without such research experience?

3. How should I go about gaining such experience, apart from contacting professors at my university and begging to work for them? Is that essentially my only option?

4. Is it worth waiting a whole year to gain experience in order to get into a better school if I'm ready to go now? What jobs will look good? Where to look for such jobs?

5. Master's Program first? Anyone have experience doing this and know about how it effects Ph.D. admissions?

Conclusion:

I know these questions vary from person to person, but I am a very open-minded individual and am excited to hear what people have to say. I'm willing to do anything to better my chances regarding admissions, to ensure that I get the opportunity and experience that we all desire.

Thank you all!

[lambspam]

5. Master's Program first? Anyone have experience doing this and know about how it effects Ph.D. admissions?

I'm wrapping a master's program and just finished application season. I found the master's program enormously useful in that it provided the opportunities to:

- Gain research experience in a number of subfields

- Make strong, personal connections with faculty who were able to write very good, detailed LORs (they could speak to my research skills, personal attributes, and strengths)

- Strengthen self-motivation and independent working skills before pursuing a longer program

- Prepare a fantastic writing sample (I used an article I wrote for a grad class)

- Learn quantitative and survey methodology, statistical packages, bibliographic databases, all that stuff (which told me a lot about what kind of research I enjoy doing)

- Attend conferences

- Get published and present my work

- Develop a research proposal for Ph.D. apps that was feasible and interesting

It helped me grow enormously as a scholar. The master's program also helped me decide that I wanted to spend my career conducting research before I committed for the next six years of my life. As far as getting into Ph.D. programs, it helped with every aspect of the application and allowed me to develop a really solid CV. I learned what grad school was all about and was much more confident when applying for my doctorate. I have no doubt that the work I did for my master's is what got me into some awesome top-20 programs and great international universities.

That said, it's not for everyone. Some people are lucky enough to have gotten this kind of experience in undergrad or are certain about their research path. Plus, it can be hard to get funding for a master's program. Worked well for me, though.

[daytripper]

Hi iambspam, do you happen to have a list of good masters programs?

[barilicious]

Hi iambspam, do you happen to have a list of good masters programs?

I would say this slightly depends on what you want to study.

[Roll Right]

Heres my two cents:

Don't apply to all top 25 schools, you'll be unlikely to get in with your profile. This isn't meant to sounds mean, its just the truth. I applied to top 50 schools, and I have a masters degree in sociology with 3 years of research experience and a stellar gpa. I didn't get into those schools. Its not because your profile is weak, its because the schools take so many applications in, and can only accept a few people. At that point it comes down to simple probability. You have to be lucky.

I would talk about future research in your statement of purpose, but don't put too much emphasis on just that. It should relate nicely to the grad program you're applying to, and be sure to mention some professors at these programs in your statement that also share your interests.

Contact professors at your school and tell them you want research experience and will work on projects for free with them. You'll get experience and you'll also make friends with important people. Beyond that, look around in your community. There are probably non-profit programs that need evaluations done, etc. Program evaluation is one of the biggest money makers in social science, and the majority of work is also found in this area. You'll probably have a hard time finding research positions at institutes like Research Triangle Institute without an MA, so try an internship route.

Yes you'll be at a disadvantage without research experience, but then again, PhD programs like to take bachelor's level students so they can train them in their methods and stats courses. Its not necessarily a bad thing to be without research experience at this point. An MA is expensive, and while it will increase your chances of getting into a PhD, its not necessary. The extra expensive might not be worth it. I think you should be applying to PhD programs. Make sure you apply conservatively, don't apply to the top schools only, apply to schools that you know you'll get into. The economy is terrible, and competition is insane. Besides, the top schools aren't the only institutions with good scholars, you may find that a small school will be a better fit for you. Sometimes its better to be a star student at a small institution rather than another face in the crowd at a top level school.

Hope this helps.

[Lev Bronstein]

1. If you plan on doing research in the coming year (say Winter/Spring/Summer 2012), can this experience be documented on an application, although it is presently unrealized?

Yes

2. Are applicants coming right out of undergraduate programs at a severe disadvantage without such research experience?

I hear "research experience" said so much, but I think it's more so that programs are looking clearly understood interests, socialization to the profession and discipline, and evidence that you can handle graduate work. Networking helps a lot, too. These are all things you can gain through research experience, but they can be obtained otherwise. I think the most important thing to do is to read the lit in your subfield, and by doing so you will refine your research interests, understand the various academic movements, find faculty and schools for targeted applications, and possibly network.

3. How should I go about gaining such experience, apart from contacting professors at my university and begging to work for them? Is that essentially my only option?

Read the lit, go to office hours to chat with faculty, get a job after undergrad. Also, take the best paper you've written and submit it to a grad or undergrad roundtable at ASA.

4. Is it worth waiting a whole year to gain experience in order to get into a better school if I'm ready to go now? What jobs will look good? Where to look for such jobs?

Yes. I waited three years, and it sure helped. The best looking jobs will be working with sociologists in an academic setting. These will be not only at "U of ____ Social Research Institute" but also at med schools, b-schools, policy departments, etc. Search for "research assistant" or other grunt jobs at every school you can think of. You can also look at policy research orgs such as Urban Institute, RTI, MDRC, and Rand, but surprisingly, a fair number of sociologists haven't heard of them.

5. Master's Program first? Anyone have experience doing this and know about how it effects Ph.D. admissions?

I didn't go this route, but I've looked through thousands of CVs and it sometimes appears to help (if you do well!). Lambspam above suggests it for all of the experience that he/she gained, but I've done all of those things through my jobs. I suggest pursuing all three routes -- apply to PhD programs, MA programs, and look for a job.

Regarding RollRight being such a downer -- he didn't get into top schools because he joins complete sentences with commas. I think that with well developed research interests, some networking, and an amazing statement you would have a good shot at top 25 schools. My GPA is substantially lower than yours, and I got into 25-ish schools, and if there were any schools in the top ten that were a close fit, I would have gotten into those, too.

Edited April 3, 2011 by Lev Bronstein

[Roll Right]

Sorry Lev, didn't realize you would be offended by less than perfect punctuation on the internet. What was I thinking.

As I said, I wasn't trying to be a downer. I'm trying to be realistic. This isn't my first rodeo. I've applied to PhD programs twice. I the first time I was turned down and went for an MA instead. Now I'm headed to a very respectable PhD program. I was simply giving insight based on my experiences.

Anyone who knows what they're talking about will tell you that the admissions process will be very selective for the next 5 years. Places like Penn State didn't take any BA students in 2009 (at least no that I'm aware of) because competition was so stiff. That's a top 25 school. They took people with research experience and MA degrees. I'm not saying don't apply, I'm saying don't bet it all on the big dogs. Lev is giving good advise, and you should go into this process thinking you're good enough to get in anywhere. Just make sure you apply to schools that you know you can definitely get into. These aren't going to be top 25 schools simply because of the size of their applicant pools. Apply to two top 25 schools, then work your way down the prestige scale. Honestly, you'll make things happen for yourself at any institution. Just be practical about the application process and the schools you select. I mean, whats better? Applying to a bunch of high profile schools on a gamble, or actually getting into a mid-range school? Boston University isn't even in the top 20, and they receive about 200 applications a year. Schools like Duke get more than that.

Look for advise that provides support and practicality. Don't let people just pat you on the back and tell you to go all in (cough-Lev-cough).

1. If you plan on doing research in the coming year (say Winter/Spring/Summer 2012), can this experience be documented on an application, although it is presently unrealized?

Yes

2. Are applicants coming right out of undergraduate programs at a severe disadvantage without such research experience?

I hear "research experience" said so much, but I think it's more so that programs are looking clearly understood interests, socialization to the profession and discipline, and evidence that you can handle graduate work. Networking helps a lot, too. These are all things you can gain through research experience, but they can be obtained otherwise. I think the most important thing to do is to read the lit in your subfield, and by doing so you will refine your research interests, understand the various academic movements, find faculty and schools for targeted applications, and possibly network.

3. How should I go about gaining such experience, apart from contacting professors at my university and begging to work for them? Is that essentially my only option?

Read the lit, go to office hours to chat with faculty, get a job after undergrad. Also, take the best paper you've written and submit it to a grad or undergrad roundtable at ASA.

4. Is it worth waiting a whole year to gain experience in order to get into a better school if I'm ready to go now? What jobs will look good? Where to look for such jobs?

Yes. I waited three years, and it sure helped. The best looking jobs will be working with sociologists in an academic setting. These will be not only at "U of ____ Social Research Institute" but also at med schools, b-schools, policy departments, etc. Search for "research assistant" or other grunt jobs at every school you can think of. You can also look at policy research orgs such as Urban Institute, RTI, MDRC, and Rand, but surprisingly, a fair number of sociologists haven't heard of them.

5. Master's Program first? Anyone have experience doing this and know about how it effects Ph.D. admissions?

I didn't go this route, but I've looked through thousands of CVs and it sometimes appears to help (if you do well!). Lambspam above suggests it for all of the experience that he/she gained, but I've done all of those things through my jobs. I suggest pursuing all three routes -- apply to PhD programs, MA programs, and look for a job.

Regarding RollRight being such a downer -- he didn't get into top schools because he joins complete sentences with commas. I think that with well developed research interests, some networking, and an amazing statement you would have a good shot at top 25 schools. My GPA is substantially lower than yours, and I got into 25-ish schools, and if there were any schools in the top ten that were a close fit, I would have gotten into those, too.

[dreaming 1]

my two cents is that research experience isn't the be all and end all, i got into harvard and chicago fresh out of undergrad (im finishing this summer) with not one single day's worth of research- not even for my senior thesis.

i'd apply to anywhere you would hope to go, you never know! that's what happened to me anyway

[lambspam]

i'd apply to anywhere you would hope to go, you never know! that's what happened to me anyway

Definitely apply to places you would want to go, and don't apply anywhere you wouldn't actually attend, but have safeties. Several of them. It's been really shocking to see how many people applied to all top-tier schools with no mid-range options. Grad school admissions season is vicious and expensive, and you don't want to throw away $1000 (and your time and emotional energy) on a round of unsuccessful applications.

Roll RIght, voice of eternal wisdom, is right on the money.

[EDWF]

I would like to throw in my advice too, for what its worth. This was my first application season and I did not realize just how competitive it really is. I'm not right out of undergrad (but only one year removed), so its essentially the same. I got a 1310 on my GRE and thought that was pretty decent (turns out its kinda mediocre). I had a strong GPA and some legit letters of recommendation (including from a former ASA President), but the biggest thing is the writing sample and research interest. If you have a strong enough writing sample and developed enough SOP then you can be competitive. But its still a crap shoot even for the most qualified applicants.

I only applied to one safety school and it turned out to be the only school that accepted me, but I love the school and am excited to go there b/c its strengths and reputation fit my interest. So find some middle-tier schools that are strong in what you want to study and bank more on those. Apply to top programs, but don't be heart broken if you don't get in. The key is finding a good fit for you.

A masters program will definitely help, so put me down as a vote in that column. I'll probably be pursuing my masters and then trying to get into higher tier PhD programs (though technically my acceptance was PhD track).

Hope this is at least somewhat helpful.

[Doctor Jimmy]

Questions:

1. If you plan on doing research in the coming year (say Winter/Spring/Summer 2012), can this experience be documented on an application, although it is presently unrealized?

-Absolutely. But start doing research now. Help out faculty this summer and this fall. Both will be already in progress by the time you are applying (and I put conferences I had been accepted to present at on my CV, even though I hadn't presented there yet. Saying "accepted to present at _____ is still helpful, even if it is in the future)

2. Are applicants coming right out of undergraduate programs at a severe disadvantage without such research experience?

-Disadvantage: yes. Severe disadvantage: no. If you have a thesis and research with faculty some this summer and fall, you should have more experience than most applicants anyways.

3. How should I go about gaining such experience, apart from contacting professors at my university and begging to work for them? Is that essentially my only option?

-My suggestion, even given other options, is to work with faculty. If you know the specific sub-discipline/ area within sociology that you want to do work in, then make sure to work with faculty in that area. They can help you with which schools you should apply to, and I can't overstate how helpful it can be if your Letters of Rec are from faculty that are known and respected in your area.

4. Is it worth waiting a whole year to gain experience in order to get into a better school if I'm ready to go now? What jobs will look good? Where to look for such jobs?

-I think you should be competitive enough to go ahead and apply this fall.

5. Master's Program first? Anyone have experience doing this and know about how it effects Ph.D. admissions?

-There are some great Masters programs that have good placement records. Consider this an option. Maybe apply to 2 or so as back-ups. But I think you can get into a PhD program with your profile. A helpful rule-of-thumb: Apply to 3 programs you will be competitive at, 3 that you should get in, and 3 reach schools. (Meaning at least 3 should not be Top 25 programs)

[Roll Right]

Excellent advice.

Questions:

1. If you plan on doing research in the coming year (say Winter/Spring/Summer 2012), can this experience be documented on an application, although it is presently unrealized?

-Absolutely. But start doing research now. Help out faculty this summer and this fall. Both will be already in progress by the time you are applying (and I put conferences I had been accepted to present at on my CV, even though I hadn't presented there yet. Saying "accepted to present at _____ is still helpful, even if it is in the future)

2. Are applicants coming right out of undergraduate programs at a severe disadvantage without such research experience?

-Disadvantage: yes. Severe disadvantage: no. If you have a thesis and research with faculty some this summer and fall, you should have more experience than most applicants anyways.

3. How should I go about gaining such experience, apart from contacting professors at my university and begging to work for them? Is that essentially my only option?

-My suggestion, even given other options, is to work with faculty. If you know the specific sub-discipline/ area within sociology that you want to do work in, then make sure to work with faculty in that area. They can help you with which schools you should apply to, and I can't overstate how helpful it can be if your Letters of Rec are from faculty that are known and respected in your area.

4. Is it worth waiting a whole year to gain experience in order to get into a better school if I'm ready to go now? What jobs will look good? Where to look for such jobs?

-I think you should be competitive enough to go ahead and apply this fall.

5. Master's Program first? Anyone have experience doing this and know about how it effects Ph.D. admissions?

-There are some great Masters programs that have good placement records. Consider this an option. Maybe apply to 2 or so as back-ups. But I think you can get into a PhD program with your profile. A helpful rule-of-thumb: Apply to 3 programs you will be competitive at, 3 that you should get in, and 3 reach schools. (Meaning at least 3 should not be Top 25 programs)

[Sociology1988]

First of all, thank you all for taking the time to help me out here. Your insight has truly put everything in perspective regarding the competitive nature of graduate admissions.

Here's what I've gathered:

-shoot high, but apply to a broad range of schools and don't get my hopes up (be realistic with myself)

-ask professors to work with them on their present research (this is in the works)

-MA programs are helpful in many ways and should be considered, but expense might not be worth it

FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS:

1. Would a professor at a nearby school ever employ a graduate of a different institution? Would I be wise to ask nearby departments if they need research help, apart from my university?

2. Hypothetically, if I were to get into a tier-2 Ph. D. program such as University of Florida (just using for an example, I mean no disrespect) with full funding, how often do people leave after receiving their master's for better programs? Is this looked down upon? Does leaving effect funding? When would I apply for other Ph.D. programs?

Thanks again, and good luck to everyone awaiting replies from departments!

[EDWF]

2. Hypothetically, if I were to get into a tier-2 Ph. D. program such as University of Florida (just using for an example, I mean no disrespect) with full funding, how often do people leave after receiving their master's for better programs? Is this looked down upon? Does leaving effect funding? When would I apply for other Ph.D. programs?

Yeah, I'm sorry I don't have an answer for you, I'm just jumping on your question. I'd be interested in hearing what people think about this too? B/c I'll be going to a PhD program that isn't top tier and only with mediocre funding. I was thinking about doing my masters then leaving instead of staying for the whole thing. Is there an etiquette to that?

[Doctor Jimmy]

Some people do successfully do that (I can think of a few people I know). But I would have to imagine it will be tricky considering you will need to get Letters of Rec from faculty in the department you are leaving.

Yeah, I'm sorry I don't have an answer for you, I'm just jumping on your question. I'd be interested in hearing what people think about this too? B/c I'll be going to a PhD program that isn't top tier and only with mediocre funding. I was thinking about doing my masters then leaving instead of staying for the whole thing. Is there an etiquette to that?

[Lev Bronstein]

1. Would a professor at a nearby school ever employ a graduate of a different institution?

Yes. My guess is that most faculty can't find many undergrads that are truly interested in their work even at their own school.

Would I be wise to ask nearby departments if they need research help, apart from my university?

Yes. You can't network too much.

2. Hypothetically, if I were to get into a tier-2 Ph. D. program such as University of Florida (just using for an example, I mean no disrespect) with full funding, how often do people leave after receiving their master's for better programs?

People do it, but I don't know how much. I think you would really have to stand out to do such a thing.

Is this looked down upon?

I think it's a case-by-case thing.

Does leaving effect funding?

I doubt it, but maybe.

When would I apply for other Ph.D. programs?

Second year, I suppose.

[EDWF]

Some people do successfully do that (I can think of a few people I know). But I would have to imagine it will be tricky considering you will need to get Letters of Rec from faculty in the department you are leaving.

Thanks for the advice. In the program I'll be starting only about half the people continue on to the PhD after getting the masters, so for many its a terminal masters program. My thinking currently is to approach it as a terminal masters student and let them know that. Then when I finish the degree apply to some PhD programs. But maybe this will be looked down upon.

[Doctor Jimmy]

This sounds like a smart way to approach it.

Thanks for the advice. In the program I'll be starting only about half the people continue on to the PhD after getting the masters, so for many its a terminal masters program. My thinking currently is to approach it as a terminal masters student and let them know that. Then when I finish the degree apply to some PhD programs. But maybe this will be looked down upon.

[Roll Right]

You can definitely work with professors at other Universities. I currently work for UNC as a contract researcher. I'm a sociologist, but I work for the anthropology department there.

If you apply to a different phd institution after finishing an MA at an institution be careful. You don't want to advertise this too much with your current institution. I don't want to make it sound like you're burning bridges, but professors may expect or hope for you to continue your studies with them. I'm not too sure about this though.

First of all, thank you all for taking the time to help me out here. Your insight has truly put everything in perspective regarding the competitive nature of graduate admissions.

Here's what I've gathered:

-shoot high, but apply to a broad range of schools and don't get my hopes up (be realistic with myself)

-ask professors to work with them on their present research (this is in the works)

-MA programs are helpful in many ways and should be considered, but expense might not be worth it

FOLLOW-UP QUESTIONS:

1. Would a professor at a nearby school ever employ a graduate of a different institution? Would I be wise to ask nearby departments if they need research help, apart from my university?

2. Hypothetically, if I were to get into a tier-2 Ph. D. program such as University of Florida (just using for an example, I mean no disrespect) with full funding, how often do people leave after receiving their master's for better programs? Is this looked down upon? Does leaving effect funding? When would I apply for other Ph.D. programs?

Thanks again, and good luck to everyone awaiting replies from departments!

[danseparc]

Wow, all of this talk about treating a PhD program like a terminal MA is a little unsettling. I would keep as hush-hush as possible about this, even on these fora, because in all honesty--- if your profs/advisor catch a whiff of this, it's going to look really badly on your part. At best, you might seem competitive but at worst people might perceive you to be arrogant or disingenuous. I don't even know if your transparency right off the bat will help your case. Think about it this way: this school has taken the risk at throwing tens of thousands of dollars at you to do work for them and make them look good. Leaving midstream barring extreme circumstances (horrible fit/program, illness, etc.) probably doesn't bode well for future success. If you think you can do better than the program that you're in now, then perhaps applying to a terminal MA first as a stepping stone would have been best. It just makes me think of the people on here and in my own life that applied to several respectable PhD programs that they really wanted to be at, or would have been happy with, and got rejected. Please think carefully about this, both of you. Prestige isn't everything, and you could be very happy where you've wound up (or will wind up, in the case of the future applicant). Someone there wants you and sees something in you, otherwise you wouldn't have gotten in. Just my two cents.

[EDWF]

Wow, all of this talk about treating a PhD program like a terminal MA is a little unsettling. I would keep as hush-hush as possible about this, even on these fora, because in all honesty--- if your profs/advisor catch a whiff of this, it's going to look really badly on your part. At best, you might seem competitive but at worst people might perceive you to be arrogant or disingenuous. I don't even know if your transparency right off the bat will help your case. Think about it this way: this school has taken the risk at throwing tens of thousands of dollars at you to do work for them and make them look good. Leaving midstream barring extreme circumstances (horrible fit/program, illness, etc.) probably doesn't bode well for future success. If you think you can do better than the program that you're in now, then perhaps applying to a terminal MA first as a stepping stone would have been best. It just makes me think of the people on here and in my own life that applied to several respectable PhD programs that they really wanted to be at, or would have been happy with, and got rejected. Please think carefully about this, both of you. Prestige isn't everything, and you could be very happy where you've wound up (or will wind up, in the case of the future applicant). Someone there wants you and sees something in you, otherwise you wouldn't have gotten in. Just my two cents.

Yeah, I hear you, and for each circumstance its different. The thing for me is that I'll be going to a school where not everyone goes on to the PhD and its not even automatic, after you finish your MA there is an internal application process (although to be honest I'm not sure if this exists everywhere?). I wonder if students at that point also send out external applications?

And I do love my program, love the fit, and love the city, and the faculty. The prestige is only a factor b/c the funding is mediocre. Since it is a small, liberal, theory heavy department, not much money comes in. So there will be some loans I need to take out - and while this is fine for 2 years, I don't know if its sustainable for 5-7+ considering the market. But I do know many graduates do have success finding jobs either as the niche theory professor in a department or internationally.

[tmor6]

Wow, all of this talk about treating a PhD program like a terminal MA is a little unsettling. I would keep as hush-hush as possible about this, even on these fora, because in all honesty--- if your profs/advisor catch a whiff of this, it's going to look really badly on your part. At best, you might seem competitive but at worst people might perceive you to be arrogant or disingenuous. I don't even know if your transparency right off the bat will help your case. Think about it this way: this school has taken the risk at throwing tens of thousands of dollars at you to do work for them and make them look good. Leaving midstream barring extreme circumstances (horrible fit/program, illness, etc.) probably doesn't bode well for future success. If you think you can do better than the program that you're in now, then perhaps applying to a terminal MA first as a stepping stone would have been best. It just makes me think of the people on here and in my own life that applied to several respectable PhD programs that they really wanted to be at, or would have been happy with, and got rejected. Please think carefully about this, both of you. Prestige isn't everything, and you could be very happy where you've wound up (or will wind up, in the case of the future applicant). Someone there wants you and sees something in you, otherwise you wouldn't have gotten in. Just my two cents.

+1: I completely agree. You are really making a commitment to the Ph.D program. And Prestige isn't everything. YOU will make YOUR career by researching and publishing. Our discipline is a very small world.