MTS to PhD in Political Theory/Philosophy ?

[pianoise]

Hi,

I'm a poli sci/comparative lit. double major who just graduated early this year and I'm in need of an advice. My eventual goal is to pursue a PhD in political theory/political philosophy in a top-tier school at US and my list of schools to apply was almost all set until recently my adviser told me about HDS MTS program. I was going to apply to MA programs anyway to hone my interests and my knowledge of the field (my undergraduate program was very new, and I feel it did not fulfill the background education that I need to make me attractive to the PhD board) and HDS is a great option, considering that I can have full/partial access to courses/faculty at Harvard's department of Government or Philosophy as long as I'm fulfilling my core curriculum at MTS. So I was wondering, is this a good idea? I know ultimately it depends on what I do and how I perform, but will a training at MTS help me in my application to a PhD in political theory/political philosophy? My concern is that certain political scientists or philosophers may view my MTS training 'different' from their methodology/reading/perspective etc. and make my chances of getting a PhD in poli sci/phil actually lower. Is this likely? I'm completely new to the MTS track option and I'm unsure if this MTS->PhD in other field is common or something totally unconventional.

Personally I'm quite interested in religion, not only academically but also as a life commitment, and I would be really happy in a program where I can have access to political theory, philosophy, and religion. So another question is, what are the other MTS (or its equivalent) programs that would be a suitable fit for someone like me? Some of my interest areas are works from ancient greek thinkers, 18-19th century philosophy (e.g. Hegel, Kant, Fichte), and general topics in metaphysics and ethics. Also, I'm currently limiting my options to schools in US only.

[Astarabadi]

Hi,

I'm a poli sci/comparative lit. double major who just graduated early this year and I'm in need of an advice. My eventual goal is to pursue a PhD in political theory/political philosophy in a top-tier school at US and my list of schools to apply was almost all set until recently my adviser told me about HDS MTS program. I was going to apply to MA programs anyway to hone my interests and my knowledge of the field (my undergraduate program was very new, and I feel it did not fulfill the background education that I need to make me attractive to the PhD board) and HDS is a great option, considering that I can have full/partial access to courses/faculty at Harvard's department of Government or Philosophy as long as I'm fulfilling my core curriculum at MTS. So I was wondering, is this a good idea? I know ultimately it depends on what I do and how I perform, but will a training at MTS help me in my application to a PhD in political theory/political philosophy? My concern is that certain political scientists or philosophers may view my MTS training 'different' from their methodology/reading/perspective etc. and make my chances of getting a PhD in poli sci/phil actually lower. Is this likely? I'm completely new to the MTS track option and I'm unsure if this MTS->PhD in other field is common or something totally unconventional.

Personally I'm quite interested in religion, not only academically but also as a life commitment, and I would be really happy in a program where I can have access to political theory, philosophy, and religion. So another question is, what are the other MTS (or its equivalent) programs that would be a suitable fit for someone like me? Some of my interest areas are works from ancient greek thinkers, 18-19th century philosophy (e.g. Hegel, Kant, Fichte), and general topics in metaphysics and ethics. Also, I'm currently limiting my options to schools in US only.

Hi there Painose,

I am was browsing the forums looking for advice on a similar situation myself. I graduated with a major in English and a decent GPA a few years ago and am was looking to join a ("regular") MA to PhD program in religion,or Near Eastern studies. I had gone abroad to study in a theological seminary and to learn the original languages of the texts, so that has added on to my credit. [i am a "traditional" scholar of religion in addition to have some academic background].

I was planning on applying for MA programs until someone recently suggested the MTS or MDiv program (as far as I can tell, the MDiv is more intensive, longer, and usually culminates in a ministerial position, right?) at Harvard. I am trying to get more information, but again my main concern (which seems to be the same as yours) is whether the MTS will hold just as much weight as a MA in religion or language. I'm not sure yet, but I have asked a few scholars of the field and am awaiting their reply. For what I can tell, the MTS is useful once you have decided to pursue a vocation in the specific field.

Right now:

1.I am not sure if a MTS is just as good "generally", as a MA would be in said field.

2. I am not sure if the MTS will hold MORE weight than a MA if one were to pursue the same field of religion.

3. Is it possible to somehow "convert" the MTS into an MA with some additional research and work at Harvard or other seminaries that accredit studies in theology?

Am looking for answers to these questions, will keep you posted as things become clearer.

[pianoise]

Right now:

1.I am not sure if a MTS is just as good "generally", as a MA would be in said field.

2. I am not sure if the MTS will hold MORE weight than a MA if one were to pursue the same field of religion.

3. Is it possible to somehow "convert" the MTS into an MA with some additional research and work at Harvard or other seminaries that accredit studies in theology?

Hi SamAli,

Glad to find that I'm not alone. I've been asking around after the post here and I met one of my professors who studied at HDS MTS and end up with a PhD in Sociology. He said in MTS you're pretty flexible to do anything, and according to his words, they just "don't care" about what you do because you're just a masters student. He was exaggerating, but still something to think about.

I'm gonna go ask around some more, perhaps the director of the program or a student studying there. You might wanna do that too.

[Astarabadi]

just as an update:

I spoke to someone who is currently enrolled at HDS doing a MTS. He is actually taking time off from med school (you can do that?) in order to get a MTS, but is not headed toward a PhD. What he said was that most join HDS and transfer to Harvard either into the religion or history departments after obtaining a MTS.

So I guess a MTS does "translate" into a MA in the concerned field, but there is a difference: you, of course, have to make up the coursework that is required. You might also have an advantage with sources and knowing the methodology in religion when you join for a PhD, which others many not have.

Also, they did not require GREs for divinity schools but have recently started asking that students take them.

[Sparky]

--Religion and theology PhD programs tend to view the MTS and MA as interchangeable. Probably b/c the coursework is pretty much almost exactly the same.

--There are a couple people in my current program who have an MTS (including from the aforementioned Harvard) who feel that having an MTS instead of an MA when applying to PhD programs *besides* religion ones counted against them.

ETA: A couple of people on GradCafe (who are not in my program) have voiced the same opinion, also with respect to HDS.

--The MDiv is a special case b/c of the extra year and pastoral training. PhD programs tend to lump it in with an MTS and a religion MA, but there are a few programs (Harvard Div's ThD, for example) that actually require an MDiv. I don't know for sure, but I would imagine that non-religion PhD programs would view this even more skeptically than an MTS.

--A master's in religion specifically is not always necessary for admission to religion PhD programs (philosophy and language MAs seem to be somewhat common). However, it is very rare that a PhD program will admit someone who does not have at least one M* degree, regardless of what it might say on the website about accepting applicants with just a bachelor's degree.

--Unless a program is explicitly a dual-degree M*/PhD program, don't assume you can just "transfer over" to the PhD after finishing your master's. Usually the doctoral programs are much smaller and waaaay more selective (due to funding).

Advice: when looking at M* programs, focus less on what letters come after the M, and more on what programs offer better financial aid. (E.g.: Duke Div funds MDiv students better than MTS, Notre Dame fully funds all MTS, &c.)

Edited July 29, 2011 by Sparky

[11Q13]

<---HDS MTS student

Yes you can certain emphasize political philosophy etc in your MTS as long as you satisfy the requirements of your concentration (which are themselves rather flexible). I know one of our MTS's that just graduated was an advisor to some senator before matriculating and had similar objectives.

Any Harvard student has full access to take classes from any other Harvard graduate school provided they meet the prereqs.

It's difficult for me to imagine adcoms looking at a Harvard degree with disapproval at any rate...

There is no difference whatsoever between an MTS and an MA, it depends on what classes you take to get the degree.

Top tier religion PhD's will expect a master's in the same field.

Most Harvard master's students don't just transfer to another Harvard department for the PhD, as competitive as the master's is, the PhD is a whole new level. Most HDS students that apply to Harvard PhD's get rejected, that's the reality.

Harvard, Notre Dame and Chicago divinity schools require the GRE for their master's students.

Though the website says the ThD requires an MDiv or equivalent, it actually doesn't. That said, you would need a MDiv's length of graduate work to really be competitive at all.

[Sparky]

It's difficult for me to imagine adcoms looking at a Harvard degree with disapproval at any rate...

Haha, that's more my thought. I do get where the "My MTS screwed me over in [non-religion] field" people are coming from, but I also wonder how much of that was part of the general 'see? I do too deserve to be in a PhD program' posturing that is the interpersonal manifestation of imposter syndrome.

Though the website says the ThD requires an MDiv or equivalent, it actually doesn't. That said, you would need a MDiv's length of graduate work to really be competitive at all.

That's interesting! IIRC, the website says something like 3 years of theo graduate work (so MDiv, or M* + ThM, or whatever). That's what an HDS prof I talked to (before I realized how high the app fee is) told me, too. So that's not actually the case? Is that a change, or just a non-published policy? Hmm...

[Mr. David Jay]

Concerning an MTS (master of theological studies) vs an MAR (master of arts in religion) vs an MDiv (master of divinity), the difference is what the subject of the masters (and thus what it is preparing you for). An MTS focuses on theology rather than religion or philosophy broadly construed as in a MAR or MA in philosopy (etc.). An MDiv (traditionally) is basically the theological training of an MTS (or maybe an MAR) with a pastoral emphasis (studying homiletics, pastoral internships, etc.).

That being said, each school will have their own core curriculum, and depending on how loose that is and what kinds of electives are offered, an certain MTSs, MARs, and MDivs might amount to about the same thing, especially if you are talking about top programs like Duke, Harvard, and Notre Dame. Academically speaking, I can't imagine that an MDiv from Duke, for example. would not be impressive to PhD committees even outside the humanities.

But don't take on debt for graduate school, especially if you're thinking about PhDs. Go where they have stipends like at Duke and Princeton, or at least where you don't have to pay tuition, like at Notre Dame.

BTW, philosophy of religion is really hot right now in academic philosophy, so an MDiv or whatever might serve you now better than ever. Likewise in Political Science, given the religious element in politics lately.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Mr. David Jay

[Mr. David Jay]

Though the website says the ThD requires an MDiv or equivalent, it actually doesn't. That said, you would need a MDiv's length of graduate work to really be competitive at all.

Wouldn't an MDiv's length of graduate work be the equivalent of an MDiv?

Edited July 29, 2011 by Mr. David Jay

[11Q13]

That's interesting! IIRC, the website says something like 3 years of theo graduate work (so MDiv, or M* + ThM, or whatever). That's what an HDS prof I talked to (before I realized how high the app fee is) told me, too. So that's not actually the case? Is that a change, or just a non-published policy? Hmm...

Basically, if they want you, they won't let that get in the way. I know a few people that did PhD's at say, Yale, who did not meet one of the requirements but was accepted anyway.

Concerning an MTS (master of theological studies) vs an MAR (master of arts in religion) vs an MDiv (master of divinity), the difference is what the subject of the masters (and thus what it is preparing you for). An MTS focuses on theology rather than religion or philosophy broadly construed as in a MAR or MA in philosopy (etc.). An MDiv (traditionally) is basically the theological training of an MTS (or maybe an MAR) with a pastoral emphasis (studying homiletics, pastoral internships, etc.).

That being said, each school will have their own core curriculum, and depending on how loose that is and what kinds of electives are offered, an certain MTSs, MARs, and MDivs might amount to about the same thing, especially if you are talking about top programs like Duke, Harvard, and Notre Dame. Academically speaking, I can't imagine that an MDiv from Duke, for example. would not be impressive to PhD committees even outside the humanities.

There is no difference between an MTS and an MAR at most top schools like Harvard, Yale, Notre Dame, and so forth. It's a formality, like the distinction between the PhD and ThD at Harvard. When I finish my master's I will not have taken a single class in theology. The distinction between the MTS/MAR/MA and the MDiv is more clear, but it's rather common here at Harvard for students with no interest in ministry to do the MDiv because it allows you to do a third year of course work, basically a three year MTS.

Wouldn't an MDiv's length of graduate work be the equivalent of an MDiv?

An MDiv's length of work is 3 years, while to most, and MDiv or equivalent suggests academic ministerial preparation. Ministerial preparation is not necessary for the ThD at Harvard.

[pianoise]

Wow, thanks so much for all the valuable opinions. So I gather that my MTS->PhD in Political Philosophy (philosophy branch) is quite feasible, assuming that I do the necessary coursework in philosophy by taking advantage of the flexible system in Harvard. Right?

I'm now concerned about my chances at getting into HDS MTS. I'm looking into other MA programs in philosophy (e.g., Tufts, Brandeis, N. Illinois, etc.) but HDS is easily my top choice because of its interdisciplinary, flexible aspect. As some mentioned funding was possibly a concern, but now I got myself a Fulbright (will be confirmed as a grantee when I do make it into any graduate program ... and yes, I'm an international applicant to US), and this is settled to an extent.

My stats are: 3.8/4.3, GRE 650-710 Verbal, 750-800 Quantitative. I have 3 solid recommendation letters, and the rest (e.g. writing sample, sop, etc.) are subjective so I won't comment on them but I think they're fine.

How hard is it to get into HDS MTS? How high/low do I have a chance?

[Balatro]

The acceptance rate at Harvard Divinity jumps around a lot, from year to year. I know the MDiv acceptance rate as of a couple years ago was hovering between 40-50% when I first began looking into the program as an Undergrad. However as I understand it, the acceptance rate for the MTS is somewhere around 20-25%. The MTS is obviously more academic in focus and given your stats and assuming nothing hidden in your LORs/etc, you should be perfectly fine. I've seen people admitted with much, much worse.

[11Q13]

Your stats sound good, and I'm sure being a Fulbright will make you particularly attractive. Your SOP is the most important part, so make sure the non-subjective parts are their best. The religion, ethics and politics concentration is first or second in terms of the number matriculating so it might be a more competitive concentration. Just give it your best and leave it in God's hands.

[pianoise]

Great. Thanks so much for the insightful comments. I'll do just that.