BME Education and Career Options

[collegebum1989]

Hi Guys,

I recently completed my B.E. in Biomedical Engineering and will be entering into a M.Eng program for Biomedical Engineering at Cornell University. Seeing that the field of BME is inter-disciplinary, and so large, I wanted some help with career outlook for BMEs and the education which these positions require.

Since BME is largely a research-oriented field, it is recommended that one receives a graduate degree before entering the workforce. While I understand this, I am confused as to what "my next step" should be to begin my career.

My Career Interests

I've always been interested in healthcare and technology. Specifically, bioinstrumentation and imaging. I am interested in industry jobs. Although I do not mind research, I can rather see myself more involved in the industry. I have more of a business-oriented mind and can see myself in the workforce (being involved in design, testing and collaborations between companies) rather than an academic-oriented mind, pursuing research projects and writing grants.

At some point in my life, I want to create small start-up biotech companies and then develop them. I have an entrepreneurial spirit, but unsure of how to proceed with the next step of my education.

PhD or Work Experience

If my end goal is to be involved in industry, and eventually create a startup company, would it be valuable to pursue a PhD, with the intent of entering industry after? Should I take some time off and get some work experience after my masters? Are there industry opportunities for PhDs with a business-oriented mind?

Thank you!

[HassE]

People will surely disagree with what I say, but take what I say as a grain of salt, it is only my perspective and opinion.

First off, if you want to eventually create a start-up, you don't need any education. You just need a dream, some goals, and a hole lot of luck with a product people want. Now having said that, many questions (including myself) have pondered if you don't want to work in academia, would a PhD offer you anything. I ultimately chose to start a PhD for similiar reasons your questioned, I'd want to eventually move up the ranks (including my skill level) to have enough experience to open a startup.

First off, what do you do in a PhD program. You do research that has never been done before. If it's a topic your interested in - which is why your their anyways - your getting funded to work freely with top-of-the line equipment and advice from some of the smartest experts in your field. Your also surrounded by other extremely smart PhD students who share a similar goal as you, and that's engineering and research. I don't have any statistics behind this, but the number of students that have created some type of startup company out of a PhD must be extremely high, much higher than say a BS/MS student. You have all the resources right there.

Now beyond that, say you have your typical graduate with your PhD and start working in industry or in research. With enough experience you have the credentials, knowledge, and experience to also open up a startup. With a PhD, your more respected and have a much higher potential to move up the rankings in Industry. Maybe you eventually become CTO - chief technology offer, an executive engineer so-to-speak. From their your now given all the responsibility to direct the company of future technologies. Once again, it would be very easy - i use "easy" very lightly because a startup is never easy.

A PhD is never easy and I pray to God I can handle and complete it long enough to see the end of the road, but acquiring a PhD gives you many opportunities and resources a MS student just does not have. This isn't always the case, but if your real serious about a startup, what's really the difference between a startup and a PhD, you both need to do research - in it's own way - one way your getting paid to gain an education, the other way has a higher risk versus reward. If the startup fails, at least with a PhD you end up with some amazing contacts and the highest level of education to go along with it.

Just my take on things. If you have any intention on gaining a PhD, it's best not to take any time off after a master's. If anything, take time off before the masters, then go straight to a MS then PhD. My advice is to not even stop before or after the MS. Once you start getting a task away from school, your life starts to take over and the consistent money starts to make it extremely hard to leave that for a measly ~20k a year in a PhD.

[collegebum1989]

Thank you for the great insight. I definitely do agree with you on the education, opportunities and research ideas which a PhD would allow.

But from reading all the threads online, I'm scared that I will have a tough time getting a industry position with only a PhD and no relevant work experience. From a lot of threads, I have read and talking to friends who have finished basic science PhDs, they state its more difficult to enter industry with a PhD since you may be too specialized or overqualified. Others state that you are restricted to bench research jobs within industry.

Maybe engineering PhDs have a different job outlook than basic science PhDs (biology, chemistry, physics, etc.) since their dissertations are more theoretical, but can someone who is currently in a Engineering PhD program (especially BME) describe whether they know of colleagues in their program who do not want to pursue an academic career.

The reason I ask this is, when I applied to graduate schools last year, all the descriptions of PhD engineering programs stated: "career in research", "academic or teaching", for the programs. I know that a large majority of PhD candidates continue to pursue post-Docs and get a research position. But what if you are a person who does not mind research, but wants to pursue an executive role in industry. Would a PhD help with this career path?

I am not interested in a research career, that is working in a laboratory and writing grant proposals for new projects. I want to develop a career more like a Chief Technology Officer, or an executive engineering position within the medical instruments industry.

I just don't know whether spending 5-6 years for a PhD will end up being worthwhile if I would need to sacrifice work experience to get a reputable position within industry. Any other thoughts?

[ktel]

But from reading all the threads online, I'm scared that I will have a tough time getting a industry position with only a PhD and no relevant work experience. From a lot of threads, I have read and talking to friends who have finished basic science PhDs, they state its more difficult to enter industry with a PhD since you may be too specialized or overqualified. Others state that you are restricted to bench research jobs within industry.

This is what I've heard as well. That a Master's opens up a lot of doors career-wise, and a PhD promptly closes a lot of them. Now I'm not sure what would be the case in the biomedical field, where it's expected that you need to get at least a Master's.

That being said, if you're truly a talented individual, you should be able to meet your career goals PhD or not (with a little luck).

My advice would be to delay getting a PhD after your Master's to gain industry experience. If you feel like your career is going nowhere and you would need a PhD to get further, go back to school. If your career takes off in the direction you want it to go, no need to waste 5-6 years doing a PhD.

[Collegebum]

What makes this choice more difficult is the flexibility of careers with both types of degrees. Surely, there are executive engineers in top companies with only bachelors/masters and PhD engineers who are struggling to find a job. But the converse is surely true too, many top executive positions in startup companies are often PhDs, while other engineers with only a masters working under them.

I've come to the conclusion, that it is yourself who defines your career, not your degree. Your degree only helps to teach you how to handle your career, realize your potential and utilize your strengths.

Now, knowing all of this, I constantly struggle with an inferiority complex due to the family background I come from. I am South Asian, with two parents who are both physicians, and a sister in medical school. Therefore, I am the only one in my family without an MD. I understand that degrees aren't everything, but trust me, it is very troubling when your entire family friends, family and social network is filled with MDs (most of my uncles/aunts). To South Asians, especially the physicians, anything other than an MD is considered "didn't make it to medical school".

Perhaps, this is one reason why I want to pursue a PhD...to remain competitive with them, or at least gain some respect within my family. I am in no way undermining the capabilities of people with just an MS, or BS, just explaining my perspective.

In South Asian culture, education is vital to your status in society. The more educated you are, the more respected you are. However, in American culture, social status is more determined by your earning power and career advancement. The two clash very often, and perhaps many South Asian Americans face a conflict on how to fulfil both. So they pursue medicine, because it satisfies both conditions.

I'm speaking generally, of course. I'm just confused as to what do in my own life. I want the education of a PhD, prestige of an MD and the earning potential of an MBA. What intrigues me about engineering is that these three elements are all available to attain because of how broad the disciplines are.

I know that I do not want to be a physician. I don't have a love for patient care, diagnostics and treating sickness. I am an engineer at heart. I love solving problems, I love analytical games, and I still systematically about everything. I know I want to be in the healthcare industry, working with biotechnology companies. And I know that I am interested in technology, innovation and commercialization. The problem for me is that a career in medicine is very structurally defined: 4 years undergrad, 4 years med school, 3-7 years residency, after which you specialize based on a fellowship. However, a career in engineering is not as clearly defined...thus I struggle when given numerous options.

I just don't know whats right for me, since I was something which encompasses all three criteria (education, prestige, earning potential) lol.

Edited August 5, 2011 by Collegebum

[HassE]

That's a very good post, I think we can all attest to that a little. An MD is very prestigious, but I don't think it is anymore prestigious than a PhD, not at all. Second, if you want to just do a MS, then just do an MS, if you want to do a PhD do that. Don't do the degrees because someone else wants you to or for prestige because you'll never see the end of the tunnel if that's all your aiming for. A PhD drop out looks a lot worse.

My perspective on this whole MS/PhD is this. Take a look back about 30 years ago, the predominant degree in the world (at least in the US) was an associates degree and if you had a bachelors degree then you were doing very well. Then this shifted from a bachelors degree being the minimum and a master's degree being able to be sufficient and "good enough". Very few people 30 years ago had masters degrees (never mind PhDs) and surprisingly enough, the percentage with people with PhDs now are very low as well. Master's degrees today is going to to be the minimum we're going to need if this trend continues.

A master's degree will no longer hold prestige or be "good enough" in 30 years because the market will be overpopulated with them. A bachelor's degree will be nothing equivalent to an associates today. Getting a PhD today if you want to go into the industry is a way to almost help repay you back in the future. It might offer you very little if not the same compared to an MS, but in 30 years, i expect it to start paying back (if not much sooner, but you get the point).

As a family friend once said to me who was a professor at GeorgiaTech and graduated from MIT with his PhD as well as got his JD.

"A degree only helps you get your first job, after you get your first job the degree does not reflect you, but you reflect the degree." At work if you are a good hard worker, your employees will say, wow this person came fromm XYZ school, it has a very good program. Howevever, if your lazy and you don't put in enough work, they'll be saying wow I thought XYZ school was much better in producing engineers.

If you enjoy learning and enjoy school, then you can always apply to PhD programs and see how it goes, worse comes to worse if you are depressing and hate the atmosphere you can always leave with just an MS. If you enjoy it then you stay and continue for the full PhD.

[Collegebum]

I definitely agree with you, and if I were to be doing a degree only for what people think about me, I would definitely be applying to medical school now lol.

I'm very certain that I want to pursue a PhD for the reasons I stated above (research in new technology, taking on challenging research, solving unmet clinical demands for medical technology). And your points on the increasing demand is surely true as well. With the economy the way it is right now, people will try to delay school as much as possible to avoid the lack of available jobs in the workforce, and go into higher education programs. This means that in 30 years time, when the economy is picking back up, the work force will become more competitive with more educated individuals applying for the same positions.

I'm not sure PhD will ever become a "standard", largely because people pursue PhDs for passion and knowledge as opposed to an economic demand. The PhD has the lowest economic demand/return compared to other professional doctorates (MD, JD, DDS, Pharm,D), only because people who enroll in PhD programs specifically know that its not for financial reasons. The ones that do, tend to drop out when their research workload exasperates their financial needs. However, you will find that many people will pursue Masters programs and professional doctorate for their economic demand. I know a lot of people in law school because they understand the opportunities it will bring them, and know people in medical school/dental school who chose the field for its strong demand. But a PhD student, is one who perhaps sacrifices a salary for a chance to become an intellectual, a quality I believe will be tough for many members of society to understand to make PhDs the new universal degree (outside of research).

[HassE]

very well said. I wish you the best of luck and if you have any questions along the way feel free to PM me or ask away on this board. I'm in a PhD program and hope I have the strength to finish it. As a professor once told me, with a master's degree you will earn 50% more salary across your career compared to a bachelors degree, with a PhD you will only earn 10% more than a masters, but a PhD grants you opportunities and power.

The PhDs in Engineering are the ones creating the new technology - otherwise they wouldn't be getting there PhD since it isn't original new research so the opportunities to sell off your invention, create a startup, or sit on the executive board of a company are very high. Most companies want their signature and the PhD title next to their name signing off on a new design just to have a "name" backing up their idea.