[IR] Graduate degrees: Are they worth it [without professional experience]?

[BMCGirl10]

An interesting profile from the Washington Post on a USAID officer who went back for his MPA prompted the question.

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Graduate degrees: Are they worth it?

http://www.washingto..._washingtonpost

In early 2011, Ramsey Day was completing his 2¹ / ₂-year tour as head of USAID’s Montenegro office and evaluating his next job offer. The 36-year-old’s political career trajectory had been steep and fast. Starting in 2003, he had: served as an advance representative for Vice President Dick Cheney; worked on George Bush’s 2004 reelection campaign; won a political appointment to USAID’s Europe-Eurasia Bureau; been promoted to the bureau’s chief of staff, and then promoted again to chief of USAID’s Public Liaison Office.

With that track record, his successful stint in Montenegro, and his deep management experience, Day seemed positioned for advancement by almost any measure — any measure, that is, but his academic credentials. With a bachelor’s degree only, he was shut out of the running for positions at the next level of leadership in the U.S. Agency for International Development. His new assignment felt like it would be a step down: a post as general development officer in a remote area of Afghanistan, which (because it was also a move from civil to foreign service) came with a $50,000 pay cut — half of his Montenegro salary.

- Read the rest on The Washington Post

[Hanson's Fan]

Is it a question or for info?

In the past when competition is not as fierce as today, maybe not.

For today, you need it. But straight from college, do you have any internship experience? Willing to work in a non-profit while attending a grad school? It'll pay off when you start your professional career in a few years let's say you stick around foreign services, gov jobs, UN jobs, IGOs jobs and etc.. if you have 1-3 years of work experience before going to an IR grad program, it will even add your opportunities to be admitted by grad schools.

[BMCGirl10]

Hi Hanson's Fan - it was a question and an attempt at starting a discussion. Thanks! I've been working in DC for 2 years so hopefully it'll help with post-grad job prospects.

[maeisenb]

While I think you pose an interesting question and Hanson's Fan (if this is the boy band, then I love the reference) has a good response.

I just want to quickly point out that this example is largely irrelevant for most people. In this situation you have a Republican political appointee who rose through the ranks of politically appointed positions where all you need is a B.A. Once the Republicans lost control he went to Montenegro (2011 minus 2.5 gives you that he left at the end of the Bush Administration) and joined the non political arm of USAID (one assumes). Thus, at that point he now entered the civil service at a lower pay band (G-whatever rank), since the non-political jobs work on a merit based system that takes into account advanced degrees (as it should).

This, rather than being an example of requiring an advanced degree, is more an example of poor planning. He should have done one of two things:

1. Realized that Republicans weren't going to be in power forever and, as such, gone to grad school at a much younger age if he wanted to enter the civil service.

2. Or realized that he is a political operative at this point and gone to work on the House or Senate Foreign Affairs Committees doing communications or other work, especially now that there are more Republican staffers post 2010 election.

So the result is that either he was extremely naive (choice 1) or had few connections on the Hill or in downtown DC to get a job (choice 2, with a little naivete built in of course as well).

[wasistdas]

I take a pretty hardline approach to this and say that no, they are not at all worth it without both at least 5 years of work experience and at least 1 full year abroad.

for me, work experience does not mean a 6-month internship/traineeship at a time. The 5+ years of experience gives the individual a chance to really figure out what they want to do, and gives the hiring manager/admissions officer proof that when you say you have initiative/creative thinking/ambition your resume reflects that. The experience doesn't have to be 100% relevant, but should show steady career progression.

for the year abroad, I mean actually living and working a real job. 1 semester studying the language at a university doesn't count for me. I have been abroad for nearly 2 years and have only now actually started to become immersed.

more than just getting into a top program (which is important), without experience you will simply be under-qualified for the best positions and over-educated (in-debt) to take a low rung job after graduation. This is the most important part, finishing the degree is not even really step one, it is like getting your gear together before going on a long hike.

[Hanson's Fan]

2 years in DC for ? How's your academic profile? Foreign language ability? What kinds of jobs or which agencies do you want to work?

I went to a grad school w/ younger classmates w/ a couple of years of work experience. Some of them worked/lived abroad maybe 6 months or 1 year, finished 2-year policy degree, and passed tests working for DEA, foreign services, and etc..

Good luck. It depends on individuals. B/c each person is unique and maybe talented or passionate about sth in particularly and can land his/her job easier than those w/ more years of experience sometimes.

Also, It's about a mindset too.. Risk-taking jobs, high risk countries or zones would require people w/ different skills, knowledge, ages, tags, and preferences. Some people can be more adventurous than others..

And many more factors in life in finding jobs.. Sometimes, younger ones climbed ladders too fast (faster than those with experience) and get stuck too just like them..

Just do your best every day. Best of lucks.

[MYRNIST]

I take a pretty hardline approach to this and say that no, they are not at all worth it without both at least 5 years of work experience and at least 1 full year abroad.

The experience doesn't have to be 100% relevant, but should show steady career progression.

for the year abroad, I mean actually living and working a real job. 1 semester studying the language at a university doesn't count for me.

This is not meant to be attacking, but you might want to think about how much your opinion is derived from the innate desire to justify your own decisions.

If I remember correctly, you worked in a non relevant field (not to IR, at least) for a while coming out of undergrad, then moved to a foreign country for a couple years to work (not through a study abroad program), and will be entering school with like 5-6 years of experience. Your description of the ideal work experience / life track for IR graduate degrees is basically just a description what you did, and I don't think it's a coincidence.

I recently read Mistakes Were Made, But Not By Me, which is by some eminent psychologists, and details just how universal and powerful the desire for self-justification is. I highly suggest reading it, because you will start to see it everywhere in both your own and others' behavior. For a relevant example, I think AW is the least important section of the GRE. Unsurprisingly, it is the section I did the worst on. I think HKS is overrated - I didn't apply there for financial reasons, and now am trying to convince myself I'm not missing out on anything. The human brain is innately programmed to cast our actions in the best possible light.

Basically, just trying to say that while you are completely entitled to your own opinion, it is worth thinking about how your own biases cloud it. For what it's worth, I don't think 5 years is ideal, but I do agree on living in a foreign country. Can you guess which one I did, and which I didn't?

Edited March 2, 2012 by MYRNIST

[washdc]

Wait, are we talking about the guy who only had a BA? Or whether coming out of grad school w/ zero work experience will help land you a job?

If it's the former, in government.. of course his prospects for promotion will be limited. He's competing with individuals with MAs and PhDs.

If it's the latter, I mean, it might be tougher to get a job right out of grad school w/ zero experience.. however that's what career tracks are for. One can sign up for the FS exam, or a fellowship, etc. to get a foot in the door of government work.

[DualCitizenIR]

I have been thinking about my lack of full time international experience a lot lately... and I think this is making me lean towards the Map Your Future MALD program at Fletcher. They won't notify me until as late as July as I missed the early deadline, but it would be my only chance at getting a couple or 3 years of experience before my masters. Plus it is the highest ranked/most well known program in the US that I am applying for. I got into Korbel, which is a great program, but it would leave me with a lot of debt. Any thoughts on my situation?

[wasistdas]

This is not meant to be attacking, but you might want to think about how much your opinion is derived from the innate desire to justify your own decisions.

It isn't a coincidence at all. I can only give recommendations based on my own experience and the experiences of close friends and colleagues. I would consider my experience to be an absolute minimum, especially the time abroad (although how you remember my profile is a little.....). After talking with peers at some "dream job" places in both the government and private sector, they also recommended this formula of 5-7 years of working, the back to school, then 10 years of working, then back to school. For those planning on joining the foreign service or working abroad and have never spent more than a half a year from family, expectations might not meet reality. I think the "average" stats at many of the schools reflect this as well, with average ages pushing towards the late-20's almost 30 with work experiencing matching.

the most important part, for me at least, isn't getting in to the school, it is competing afterwards. Nearly all jobs postings you will find will say "3-5 years of experience" or "7-10 years of experience" or something along those lines. With a MA you will be overeducated for the first and under-experienced for the second. In the rather vitriolic thread about the poor guy from the law school asking about how to get a consulting job, I think a lot of these ideas were fleshed out.

What you say about self-justification is spot on (although that doesn't help me with this recurring dream about an admissions board made up of sharp-toothed teddy bears). That doesn't change the fact, however, that if I applied at any other point in my life, I would feel vastly underprepared. I am sure that if I continued my current track for a couple more years and looked back, I would feel the same way about now. However, at no point would I feel prepared coming right out of undergrad with no work or life experience.

[washdc]

DualCitizenIR, well if you get into SIS you can study abroad or even spend a summer interning abroad. Does Korbel have those options? SIS is also cheaper than most schools, so if you get funding you'd be all set.

[washdc]

After talking with peers at some "dream job" places in both the government and private sector, they also recommended this formula of 5-7 years of working, the back to school, then 10 years of working, then back to school. For those planning on joining the foreign service or working abroad and have never spent more than a half a year from family, expectations might not meet reality. I think the "average" stats at many of the schools reflect this as well, with average ages pushing towards the late-20's almost 30 with work experiencing matching. the most important part, for me at least, isn't getting in to the school, it is competing afterwards. Nearly all jobs postings you will find will say "3-5 years of experience" or "7-10 years of experience" or something along those lines. With a MA you will be overeducated for the first and under-experienced for the second. In the rather vitriolic thread about the poor guy from the law school asking about how to get a consulting job, I think a lot of these ideas were fleshed out. What you say about self-justification is spot on (although that doesn't help me with this recurring dream about an admissions board made up of sharp-toothed teddy bears). That doesn't change the fact, however, that if I applied at any other point in my life, I would feel vastly underprepared. I am sure that if I continued my current track for a couple more years and looked back, I would feel the same way about now. However, at no point would I feel prepared coming right out of undergrad with no work or life experience.

I think the problem with this however is you run into the exact same problems. Jobs at the UN for instance.. you're not going to get in with a BA alone, sorry you won't. You can have your 5-7 years work experience and it would do 0 for you. How do you remedy that? You get an MA, but then you have no work experience.. you're semi screwed either way. The best you can hope for is someone takes a chance on you.

Or you can work and go to school.. that's an option as well. I know plenty of people who are simultaneously holding down jobs at like DHS and trekking to class at night.

[DualCitizenIR]

Hey thanks for the input washdc. Yes those options make SIS attractive. I'll just have to wait and see which offers come my way like everyone else. It is cheaper but cost of living isn't. Korbel doesn't seem to integrate their study abroad as much as SIS, although the do have it through DU...

[wasistdas]

I think the problem with this however is you run into the exact same problems. Jobs at the UN for instance.. you're not going to get in with a BA alone, sorry you won't. You can have your 5-7 years work experience and it would do 0 for you. How do you remedy that? You get an MA, but then you have no work experience.. you're semi screwed either way. The best you can hope for is someone takes a chance on you.

Or you can work and go to school.. that's an option as well. I know plenty of people who are simultaneously holding down jobs at like DHS and trekking to class at night.

No one thinks you will get a good job, or any, at the UN with just a BA regardless of work experience. But then you jump straight to the other extreme of MA + no work experience. Why wouldn't it be both? Work, then MA. I think of most of these MA's the same as an MBA. An MBA without work experience is pretty useless in my eyes, except in certain specializations.