MA vs PhD...

[objectivityofcontradiction]

I've convinced myself that an MA year is going to be more beneficial to my study of philosophy than if i jump right into PhD. work. The reasons for this are 1) my undergrad university, though a great university and ranked well as a whole, did not house the strongest philosophy department and thus I think a year of study at another institution makes me a more attractive applicant. 2) I'll have been away from philosophy for almost two years by the time I'm back in school and I think the MA will ease me into academe better than doctoral work.

However, I'm aware that I could get rejected from the 8-9 schools I apply to for my MA and so I'm considering applying to a few PhD. programs as well. Schools like Syracuse, Loyola Chicago, Michigan State, etc. which don't fund MAs, are on my list as some back up PhD. choices.

Ideally, I'll get my MA and thus be able to apply to schools for my PhD. that I'd rather attend.. WashU, Notre Dame, New School, Vanderbilt, Stony Brook, Columbia, because with the MA I'll have a better chance getting into these schools.

So I guess my question is just whether or not my logic is correct? Will my chance of getting admitted into some of the programs I mentioned suffer if I apply for an MA when they offer a PhD.? I've heard that several schools technically offer MAs, but really they expect you to complete the MA and move on to PhD. work in the department rather than elsewhere.

My list of MA schools are: Sussex, Warwick, UCL, UCD, New Mexico, UW-Milwaukee, Marquette, GSU and Guelph.

Any other good programs I should look at (I'm not interested in NIU, SFSU, Tufts or Brandeis)?

[v3p011]

It's really hard to give you advice on this one, because no one really knows what makes someone a more attractive candidate.

Having said that, I think that an MA is a good idea (ideally, at a different school than your PhD), because you can get exposure to working with different people, develop some experience and philosophical maturity, and hopefully write something good. Also, writing a thesis can be really beneficial, but it's a risky path to take because failure is common. However, if you succeed, you will absolutely know that you can handle a dissertation, and if you fail, at least you didn't waste 5+ years.

All in all, I think an MA can contribute a lot to writing good philosophy, but I don't know whether it's the best way to ultimately land that TT job, if that's what you're most concerned with.

Hope that helps

[twwright]

I agree with v3p011, but I would also suggest applying to some of the PhD programs you'd `rather go to.' Some of those schools, so far as I know, will likely admit you if your dossier looks good (even more so than some of the `back-ups' you listed). Coming from a weak philosophy department will not be very big hurdles for places like, e.g., New School and SUNY-Stonybrook. =)

[eugvdeb]

I'm not sure what your specific interests are, but another program you might want to look into is Duquesne, who has good coverage of the history of philosophy as well as the obvious focus of contemporary continental philosophy. You can apply to the PhD and MA programs at the same time, and you will be first considered for the PhD and then for the MA. I've seen various statements about Duquesne not having good funding for the MA, and while this is definitely true compared to schools like GSU and others who give out tuition + stipend, there is always some funding for the MA students in terms of credits. If I had to guess, I would say that the average MA student in the past few years has had at least half of the 30 credits taken care of (and several have had more than this), and there are also some other funding opportunities on campus, especially in your second year. It wouldn't be best case scenario in terms of the funding, and would require some additional loans, but as someone who's done it, I can say that it's do-able and I'm glad I did it. Additionally, Pittsburgh is a pretty cheap city to live in, and Duquesne also has other benefits such as the opportunity to take classes at Pitt as well as the ability to take language courses at no extra cost.

To speak to your general concern, I would say that if you feel like you should be going for an MA first, then I would focus your attention on getting into MA programs. It is worth it to apply to PhD programs, especially those who waive application fees, but it sounds like getting an MA first may help you really develop interests and other components of the application, which will help in terms of really making yourself a good fit for a PhD program. When I was coming out of undergrad, I was in a similar situation, coming from an unknown school and also thinking that I needed to do more coursework in philosophy (my BA is in interdisciplinary studies with a focus on history and literature in addition to philosophy). I received the advice to just apply to PhD programs because of the funding situation, but in retrospect, I really had no idea what I was saying in my application and with my writing sample. After doing the MA at Duquesne and developing my interests, presenting at some conferences, and meeting a lot more people, I feel like I was much better prepared for the PhD applications, and it paid off as I was accepted into my top choice.

Another MA program to look at is Loyola Marymount University, who I believe has some full-funded spots and some partial-funded spots. It's hard to speculate on MA programs without knowing your interests, though.

In short, what I'd say is that if you can craft a very good application with a focused SoP and writing sample, then definitely apply for PhDs. Doing an MA will in no way hurt you other than financially if you aren't admitted to a place like GSU, etc. I think there are a lot of benefits of doing an MA, especially at a place where you will teach a little bit, because then if you have to take a year or two to get in to a PhD program, you will be able to stay in philosophy with teaching. As far as I understand it, getting into a PhD program is almost more of a numbers game than anything else, and requires a bit of luck. I have friends who had to wait through two or three years of complete rejections that I can say for a fact are smarter and more deserving than several people I've met who came straight out of undergrad. One other advantage of doing an MA is the opportunity to go to conferences and try to meet people at the institutions you most want to get into.

[objectivityofcontradiction]

Thanks a lot for the reply. Do you have any personal experience or have you known any one who has taken an MA in the U.K.? My main interests are in German Philosophy and the philosophy of history. Ideally I'd like to develop a very sound base in Kant, Hegel, German Idealism, and especially Marx, in order to be in a position to better engage critically with the figures of the Frankfurt School. I'm also fascinated with the thought of Benjamin as a Philosopher--and am motivated to do work that will once and for all convince those in the community that despite the fact that he proclaimed himself as a literary critic, his work can really only be understood as a philosophy of history--and that studying him should not be left only to those in Comp Lit and Criticism.

I ask about UK programs because my four top choices for an MA are Sussex, Warwick, U College London and U College Dublin.. all of which have departments that have very strong reputations in Continental Thought. I've heard, "good luck paying for an MA in Britain or Ireland," but I'm not sure that the cost over there is that much more than what it would cost were I to attend an MA program in the states that is unfunded.

[eugvdeb]

I have no personal experience with the UK, but I have several friends who have done MAs or PhDs there who had very good experiences. Some other places to look at are the University of Dundee in Scotland as well as Kingston in London (I think the CREMP might be the best place to do continental work in the world).

It sounds like we have similar interests, so feel free to shoot me a message on here to stay in touch.

[Scottish_Mermaid]

I'm starting my MA in October (so only a few days away) but doing it distance learning via a Welsh university (I need to work so was the best option). I live in Aberdeenshire in Scotland and am hoping to do my Ph.D at the university of Aberdeen...the philosophy department there is excellent. I did my first degree there, it was not a Philosophy degree but I did do some Philosophy as part of it. I wish to combine Philosophy and Psychology and study the mind...rather vague I know but I will spend the next year during my MA making up my mind what exactly I will research during my Ph.D

What did you decide in the end?

[objectivityofcontradiction]

Hey Scot, --> I ended up at University College Dublin, studying an MA in contemporary european philosophy, working on Adorno, Habermas, and the concepts of reification, freedom, and legitimacy. I'm very happy with my decision. Best of luck.