Maxwell vs SAIS for private sector, overseas, intl econ/markets

[respice finem]

So I hesistated to make another of these "(this school) vs (that school)" threads, but I just don't have enough knowledge to make an informed decision.

I would like to work overseas (probably Asia) for a least the first part of my career in the area of international trade/markets. I didn't get funding from either of these schools.

I guess I won't get much advantage from SAIS's DC location, but from what I understand it also has a great reputation with private sector employers due to it's rigorous program. I would like to develop quantitative skills, but don't have a strong math background (I haven't even taken calculus). From what I understand, while SAIS's program will be demanding, it is also structured to allow people like me to develope the needed skills (online math lessons, the math DVDs, and Pre-Term). In the age of "big data" these skills might be very valuable.

Maxwell's program is shorter and looks quite a bit easier (and probably more enjoyable with a whole semester being a global intership). But I imagine that employers would recognize this. I don't really know how great of a reputation it has in the area of employment I'm interested in. And while I could take more quantitatively demanding classes at Maxwell, since they aren't required, I don't know if the program would assist in the development of new skills the way the SAIS program does.

In the end, is SAIS worth probably an extra $40k of debt if I intend to work in the private sector where the better school might make a difference in starting salary?

If anybody has any insight on this, I would greatly appreciate it.

[OregonGal]

I would disagree about the DC location of SAIS not being an advantage. There's a lot of private consulting firms and contractors based in the DC area, and in general I'd argue that there are more career opportunities on the ground in DC than in Syracuse.

Other than location, my other piece of advcie is to do a side-by-side comparison: look at all the factors and how they play out. What percentage of Maxwell's alumni go into the private sector vs SAIS? How strong is their international econ track? At either school, are there professors whose research you're interested in, or courses you'd love to take? How is each school's relative strength in their Asia regional track?

When looking at financing and debt loads, also look at more than the sticker price. How much funding is there for 2nd-year students? For example, at UCSD IR/PS they said flat-out that they don't have a lot of internal funding for 2nd year; they focus on first-year renewable fellowships. I think I saw another recent post about SAIS quoting an admissions officer that 50+% of their 2nd-year students receive funding--you'd want to check in more on specifics (do most only get $5000?) but that holds out the possibility of defraying 2nd-year costs. What are Maxwell's funding rates?

Finally, when looking at the feasability of debt loads I've found that looking at take-home pay is a great way of gauging that. First, figure out what your likely salary would be in that private-sector job after graduation. Next, go to the federal loans site calculator and plug in loans to see what your monthly payment would be under various plans. Then go to a payroll calculator (I use this one) to calculate take-home pay after tax withholding. Subtract that monthly payment from your take-home pay to see what you'd be living on at that amount of debt. Are you comfortable at living with that? Here's my own work-up in Google Docs (second tab) as an example.

[yo_yo86]

When I spoke with somebody in the fin aid department at SAIS they said that 8K was generally the lowest amount they gave second-year students; however, the cut-off for grades varies each year and has been as low as 3.4 and high as 3.7 recently.

Overall, I know Maxwell has alums scattered throughout the world, including Asia, but from what I understand SAIS is still a stronger name with more private sector connections. I would think an extra 40K in debt would be manageable, too. For me, I am deciding whether SAIS is worth spending an extra (roughly) 55K over Maxwell, assuming no second-year tuition reduction.

Edited April 6, 2012 by yo_yo86

[MaxwellAlum]

I'd really encourage you to see if you can get in touch with some students at Maxwell who studying international trade/markets (call the admissions office). One thing you can do at Maxwell is do a dual degree in international relations and economics, which could help in terms of marketability (it will take longer). The economics department at Maxwell has some great people, such as Mary Lovely, who teaches a great course on international economics focused on trade policy. However, I am not sure if Maxwell can offer you the breadth of courses in this area as compared with SAIS, which is why I suggest getting in touch with students who are focused on this specifically (I am not).

[respice finem]

I would disagree about the DC location of SAIS not being an advantage. There's a lot of private consulting firms and contractors based in the DC area, and in general I'd argue that there are more career opportunities on the ground in DC than in Syracuse.

Other than location, my other piece of advcie is to do a side-by-side comparison: look at all the factors and how they play out. What percentage of Maxwell's alumni go into the private sector vs SAIS? How strong is their international econ track? At either school, are there professors whose research you're interested in, or courses you'd love to take? How is each school's relative strength in their Asia regional track?

When looking at financing and debt loads, also look at more than the sticker price. How much funding is there for 2nd-year students? For example, at UCSD IR/PS they said flat-out that they don't have a lot of internal funding for 2nd year; they focus on first-year renewable fellowships. I think I saw another recent post about SAIS quoting an admissions officer that 50+% of their 2nd-year students receive funding--you'd want to check in more on specifics (do most only get $5000?) but that holds out the possibility of defraying 2nd-year costs. What are Maxwell's funding rates?

Finally, when looking at the feasability of debt loads I've found that looking at take-home pay is a great way of gauging that. First, figure out what your likely salary would be in that private-sector job after graduation. Next, go to the federal loans site calculator and plug in loans to see what your monthly payment would be under various plans. Then go to a payroll calculator (I use this one) to calculate take-home pay after tax withholding. Subtract that monthly payment from your take-home pay to see what you'd be living on at that amount of debt. Are you comfortable at living with that? Here's my own work-up in Google Docs (second tab) as an example.

Thanks for all the information.

Really, I think the Syracuse program is pretty weak in the area of international economics. They seem to have good connections in Asia for internships, though. Both the courses and the faculty at SAIS seem superior. SAIS has more people working in the private sector and more people working outside of the United States. Maxwell actually shows higher starting salaries for the private sector than SAIS, however this is the description they give with their graph:

"These are the most common fields used to identify where Maxwell students are finding employment immediately following graduation. Average starting salary ranges for the three major sectors are as follows:"

Which seems to be saying that it isn't giving the average starting salaries of actualy Maxwell graduates.

I'm not expecting second year funding to make a meaningful difference at either school. The second year at Maxwell is only one semester and it is a global internship. They offer $1,000 to $5,000 in aid for that. As to SAIS, I guess I need to find out what percentage of students who didn't get first year funding get second year funding.

The debt load of SAIS is scary relative to income in absolute terms, but a little less so when looked at in terms of additional cost over Maxwell. If I tried to get it paid off over 10 years, it would be about $7,500 a year more in loan payments. It seems like there would be a decent chance of securing a job paying $7,500 more in the private sector with a degree from SAIS.

That spreadsheet was great. Thanks for sharing it. Is $500 a month really doable for rent in DC?? I would be very happy if it is.

When I spoke with somebody in the fin aid department at SAIS they said that 8K was generally the lowest amount they gave second-year students; however, the cut-off for grades varies each year and has been as low as 3.4 and high as 3.7 recently.

Overall, I know Maxwell has alums scattered throughout the world, including Asia, but from what I understand SAIS is still a stronger name with more private sector connections. I would think an extra 40K in debt would be manageable, too. For me, I am deciding whether SAIS is worth spending an extra (roughly) 55K over Maxwell, assuming no second-year tuition reduction.

Thanks for the SAIS information! I have read that it also depends on concentration. I should give them a call too.

I'd really encourage you to see if you can get in touch with some students at Maxwell who studying international trade/markets (call the admissions office). One thing you can do at Maxwell is do a dual degree in international relations and economics, which could help in terms of marketability (it will take longer). The economics department at Maxwell has some great people, such as Mary Lovely, who teaches a great course on international economics focused on trade policy. However, I am not sure if Maxwell can offer you the breadth of courses in this area as compared with SAIS, which is why I suggest getting in touch with students who are focused on this specifically (I am not).

I'm not sure that the dual degree would work for me, as I don't have the math background for an econ masters. The great thing about SAIS is they know that since it is an IR program there will be people without that background and they teach the math.

Thank you for the great advice about contacting students there. Just before I started this thread, I actually sent an email to the student who I had previously been in contact with there. He is in global markets. He said that he is fortunate in that his particular situation is working out well, but in general international economics seems like somewhat of an afterthought for Maxwell. And while he has great things to say about Maxwell overall, he said that in regards to my situation he would strongly recommend going with SAIS.

Thank you all for the helpful replies

[OregonGal]

Well my DC estimates were all taken from my current rent--I live in Silver Spring, a suburb NW of DC which is about a half hour by bus from SAIS. I pay $580 for 1/3 of an older 3-bedroom apartment, inclusive utilities. If you want to live closer to SAIS (ie Dupont Circle area), expect to pay $1000+/month in a shared place, or $1500+ for a studio.

[respice finem]

Well my DC estimates were all taken from my current rent--I live in Silver Spring, a suburb NW of DC which is about a half hour by bus from SAIS. I pay $580 for 1/3 of an older 3-bedroom apartment, inclusive utilities. If you want to live closer to SAIS (ie Dupont Circle area), expect to pay $1000+/month in a shared place, or $1500+ for a studio.

Wow, that's great. I would be happy to commute 30 minutes for that rent. Is that a normal price for the area or did you find a really good deal?

[OregonGal]

A combination of both, really. Where I live is very Metro-accessible (downtown Silver Spring), and most of the complexes around here are new-build or refurbished, with according rent increase. However, there's still a fair few of the non-renovated apartments in my complex because a) it's a large multi-building complex and b ) they renovate between tenants, so if like my place you have a revolving door of roommates the unit is never vacant and can't be fixed up with new appliances/tile. I think 3-bedrooms in this complex (all of them have 1 shared, 1 master ensuite bath) max out at around $2300 here so you could pay $700-1000 depending how you distribute rent and if you want the master.

If you have a car, there's a lot of complexes a bit further out of Silver Spring in the more residential areas that are around the same price as my place. You just wouldn't want to live there w/o a car because it would mean at least 1 transfer to get downtown and there's no grocery in walking distance.

Edited April 9, 2012 by OregonGal