USC Price vs. Penn Fels

[rdr06001]

I'm sorry to do this, but I feel like all the advice I'm getting is based on name recognition (Penn, no contest!) or location (you're not really considering Philadelphia over LA, are you!?). I'd really appreciate some advice from people that have been researching these schools and can provide some educated nudging one way or the other.

I'm a Northeast applicant interested in economic development at the city level. I think both programs are strong in this area, but I would prefer to work somewhere on the East coast after graduation, so I'm a little concerned USC wouldn't be all that helpful. Then again, I look at the curriculum at each school and USC seems much more rigorous. I worry that Fels is just trying to coast off the Penn name and there's less substance to the program.

In terms of cost, USC gave me a full scholarship and Penn gave the 8k most of those admitted received. I realize this is a big difference, but I'm really trying to avoid making a decision based on money. I've noticed most people in this forum jump at monied offers, but it's just not the way I want to make a decision.

There is a third option: apply again next cycle. I was shocked that I went 7-for-7 this round and I clearly misjudged my competitiveness. Another year of work experience certainly wouldn't hurt, but I don't have a dream school that I didn't apply to or anything like that. I'm not sure whether reapplying is worth it.

Any thoughts?

Edited April 9, 2012 by rdr06001

[rdr06001]

No takers? I know it's not as interesting as the "HKS vs. WWS" dilemma, but I'd really appreciate it! I'm really struggling with this decision.

Even if someone decided to attend one of these programs and can just mention why, I'd be incredibly grateful!

Thanks in advance!

[Helpplease123]

Well i'm off to USC this fall because I think the program looks better than any other i've seen!

Part of what drew me to USC was the international focus (I am from the UK) and I don't personally think job placement outside of LA will be an issue... I wouldn't be going there if I didn't feel confident I could get a job back in the UK with the degree.

[OregonGal]

I would say that if you don't have that 'dream' program that you didn't get into, it's not worth waiting a year and re-applying. I'll admit to not knowing much about USC and UPenn's respective public policy programs, but if you're interested in urban policy just based on location I'd assume that USC might be a better fit; I think of LA as having a lot of urban policy programs/non-profits (though that may just be the West Coast perspective). If you're based out of the East Coast you can always arrange for an East Coast internship during the summer between academic years to keep those connections. That's what I'm planning to do, since that's my main concern with going to UCSD IR/PS. Also, check out the strength of their career services centers.

[JAubrey]

I'm sorry to do this, but I feel like all the advice I'm getting is based on name recognition (Penn, no contest!) or location (you're not really considering Philadelphia over LA, are you!?). I'd really appreciate some advice from people that have been researching these schools and can provide some educated nudging one way or the other.

I'm a Northeast applicant interested in economic development at the city level. I think both programs are strong in this area, but I would prefer to work somewhere on the East coast after graduation, so I'm a little concerned USC wouldn't be all that helpful. Then again, I look at the curriculum at each school and USC seems much more rigorous. I worry that Fels is just trying to coast off the Penn name and there's less substance to the program.

In terms of cost, USC gave me a full scholarship and Penn gave the 8k most of those admitted received. I realize this is a big difference, but I'm really trying to avoid making a decision based on money. I've noticed most people in this forum jump at monied offers, but it's just not the way I want to make a decision.

There is a third option: apply again next cycle. I was shocked that I went 7-for-7 this round and I clearly misjudged my competitiveness. Another year of work experience certainly wouldn't hurt, but I don't have a dream school that I didn't apply to or anything like that. I'm not sure whether reapplying is worth it.

Any thoughts?

Fels by a country mile, especially as you want to stay in the Northeast. UPenn's alumni network is far better, it has more established links in local and federal government, and is simply a better school academically. This is really no contest.

[Helpplease123]

Fels by a country mile, especially as you want to stay in the Northeast. UPenn's alumni network is far better, it has more established links in local and federal government, and is simply a better school academically. This is really no contest.

USC has one of the strongest alumni networks in the world...when I did my research into what schools to apply to, it came out almost top for number of people employed within a certain period after graduation from Price. UPenn has a better reputation in other areas, sure, their business school for example but when it comes to public affairs, USC is far more well known/regarded from my experience. As OregonGal said, looking for a summer internship in the northeast would probably overcome any location restrictions USC imposed (if there are any). It was also one of the few programs I came across with a consulting project abroad which is obviously great experience and opens up more doors outside of Southern California.

[JAubrey]

USC has one of the strongest alumni networks in the world...when I did my research into what schools to apply to, it came out almost top for number of people employed within a certain period after graduation from Price. UPenn has a better reputation in other areas, sure, their business school for example but when it comes to public affairs, USC is far more well known/regarded from my experience. As OregonGal said, looking for a summer internship in the northeast would probably overcome any location restrictions USC imposed (if there are any). It was also one of the few programs I came across with a consulting project abroad which is obviously great experience and opens up more doors outside of Southern California.

Comparing USC's to Penn's network on the East Coast is naive. Is USC a bad school? Not at all. But the alumni network outside of the West Coast simply isn't on the same level that Penn is, especially in major East Coast cities: DC / NYC / Boston / Philly. Particularly in NYC and DC where Penn is extremely strong and well entrenched, it is just not a fair comparison, especially in blue chip firms and prestigious government bodies.

[Eclectic4]

Hi guys,

I am facing a similar decision.

I got into both UPenn Fels and Columbia SIPA, both for MPA's. However, Fels gave me a decent scholarship and SIPA gave me none. I have heavily researched the two schools and visited several times, including for admitted day events this past week.

Here are my interests: international development and public affairs, perhaps focused on large scale ngo work. Fels has offered me more money by far and also seems to be a really solid public affairs program (not to mention the connections with Wharton and other programs).

However, it is also domestic focused. Fels is known for training people for local, state, and federal government as well as ngo, not international work. SIPA is the opposite. It is extremely international, both in curriculum and in student body. Furthermore, for international work nothing beats being in NY, D.C., San Francisco, or L.A.

Thoughts?

[rdr06001]

Well thanks everyone for your thoughts. I'm leaning towards Penn and I'll offer this little anecdote as justification.

The other morning, my boss, an executive director of a small nonprofit, asked my how my school decision was coming. I told her I was torn between USC and Penn and was having a really tough time making a decision.

"Well, it's Penn, obviously. My son is finishing his MBA at Columbia and blah blah blah..."

This is my fear with accepting USC's offer. I know Price is good, but do the folks for whom I'll be interviewing in a few years know that? Yes, I'm probably insane to turn down a fully funded offer in SoCal to take on considerable debt in Philly, but I really think finding an east coast job will be easier as a Fels grad than a Trojan. I could be totally wrong, but that's my hunch.

Thanks again guys, I really appreciate it!

Edited April 12, 2012 by rdr06001

[Eclectic4]

Yeah,

I hear you. This is one unfortunate truth about college in general. For example, for undergrad I went to a decent, mid-range school: University of Arizona. The school's honors program was amazing, with very small class sizes and a thesis requirement that was more rigorous than the masters thesis I did later at a different school. I would be willing to bet that their honors program was as good as a generic normal bachelors at a more prestigious school, if not better.

However, it is true that employers and people outside of a specific field definitely look at the school's prestige, especially considering that many employers have never heard of lesser known schools. USC of course is a well known school, so don't get me wrong. And it is considered a good school.

But, UPenn definitely is in a league above USC reputation wise. If I was choosing between two domestic programs, such as USC and Fels, I would choose Fels. That is just me though.

[Helpplease123]

But, UPenn definitely is in a league above USC reputation wise. If I was choosing between two domestic programs, such as USC and Fels, I would choose Fels. That is just me though.

Interesting that this is the case over there...in England, USC has a much better reputation than UPenn (except Wharton). Since I want to go back to Europe that is obviously important to me but it looks like for your plans Penn is better so I will retract my earlier suggestion! Good luck!

[JAubrey]

Interesting that this is the case over there...in England, USC has a much better reputation than UPenn (except Wharton). Since I want to go back to Europe that is obviously important to me but it looks like for your plans Penn is better so I will retract my earlier suggestion! Good luck!

This is patently untrue.

[Helpplease123]

This is patently untrue.

Do go on...

[JAubrey]

Do go on...

Fairly self-explanatory.

Having gone to a well known school, top British uni, and worked both in the Civil Service and the City, I can safely state that in no way shape or form in any of these environments is USC looked at as a peer of Penn let alone a superior school. Need me to continue?

[Eclectic4]

Again, not to put down USC. However, Penn was rated the 9th best school in the world this year, above Columbia, above Cornell, above Brown, etc.

It is in the league of Columbia, Harvard, Stanford, Oxford, Cambridge, etc.

[Helpplease123]

Fairly self-explanatory.

Having gone to a well known school, top British uni, and worked both in the Civil Service and the City, I can safely state that in no way shape or form in any of these environments is USC looked at as a peer of Penn let alone a superior school. Need me to continue?

Not really since I am actually from England and have not only done all of those things but have spent my life surrounded by people doing those things considering, as mentioned, I am from England. I don't presume to tell you how the school is viewed in the US but I can tell you with confidence views from over here.

I have not criticized the University in any way and wouldn't - rankings will speak for themselves, as will the views of people from the US, which as I already said, clearly favour Penn (although on that note in Public Admin rankings Penn is about 40 places below USC - however I know that those US News rankings are not highly regarded).

Anyway, I posted on this thread to give the OP my thoughts from an international perspective, since choosing between USC and elsewhere was something I recently did myself (both when deciding where to apply and where to attend - having spent time finding out how various programs are viewed here). Maybe we can just agree to disagree at this point, rather than clogging up this thread with an argument.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Helpplease123

[JAubrey]

Not really since I am actually from England and have not only done all of those things but have spent my life surrounded by people doing those things considering, as mentioned, I am from England. I don't presume to tell you how the school is viewed in the US but I can tell you with confidence views from over here.

I have not criticized the University in any way and wouldn't - rankings will speak for themselves, as will the views of people from the US, which as I already said, clearly favour Penn (although on that note in Public Admin rankings Penn is about 40 places below USC - however I know that those US News rankings are not highly regarded).

Anyway, I posted on this thread to give the OP my thoughts from an international perspective, since choosing between USC and elsewhere was something I recently did myself (both when deciding where to apply and where to attend - having spent time finding out how various programs are viewed here). Maybe we can just agree to disagree at this point, rather than clogging up this thread with an argument.

First: "Not really since I am actually from England and have not only done all of those things but have spent my life surrounded by people doing those things considering, as mentioned, I am from England."

I grew up in the UK, went to uni in the UK, and worked most of my adult life in two of the hardest sectors to get jobs in so I'd say I have a bit better perspective on both the public sector and private sector British view of US unis, but to each their own. Looking at your work experience and admits / rejects you haven't actually "done all of those things." To say simply because you are "from" the UK and thus know better is asinine. There are plenty of chavs who I'm sure have heard of USC simply due to its location and do not know Penn. The same for those who went to second or third tier unis. Now you ask Oxbridge educated fast-streamers, management consultants, top NGO / non-profit types, or those in academia they would laugh at a comparison between Penn and USC.

To everyone else: USC is a fine school, I am not knocking its quality at all, simply stating the same thing numerous other posters here and elsewhere say, Penn is superior school. There is a very natural tendancy to defend the school you are / have attended but one must be realistic about these things.

One final note, I wouldn't bring up the Public Affairs rankings, this is the same system that ranks Syracuse ahead of WWS, HKS, etc.

[Helpplease123]

First: "Not really since I am actually from England and have not only done all of those things but have spent my life surrounded by people doing those things considering, as mentioned, I am from England."

I grew up in the UK, went to uni in the UK, and worked most of my adult life in two of the hardest sectors to get jobs in so I'd say I have a bit better perspective on both the public sector and private sector British view of US unis, but to each their own. Looking at your work experience and admits / rejects you haven't actually "done all of those things." To say simply because you are "from" the UK and thus know better is asinine. There are plenty of chavs who I'm sure have heard of USC simply due to its location and do not know Penn. The same for those who went to second or third tier unis. Now you ask Oxbridge educated fast-streamers, management consultants, top NGO / non-profit types, or those in academia they would laugh at a comparison between Penn and USC.

To everyone else: USC is a fine school, I am not knocking its quality at all, simply stating the same thing numerous other posters here and elsewhere say, Penn is superior school. There is a very natural tendancy to defend the school you are / have attended but one must be realistic about these things.

One final note, I wouldn't bring up the Public Affairs rankings, this is the same system that ranks Syracuse ahead of WWS, HKS, etc.

You actually don't know anything about my life so i'm not sure you can really comment on what I have or have not done or who I do or do not know. I can guarantee you that whatever you have done, I have family and friends who have far more senior roles in the hardest sectors to work in in this country and therefore, I do know better. You are American, you refer to going to "prep school" this term does not exist over here except when referring to being under the age of 11 so please stop trying to pretend you know more about England than an English person...its laughable. Good job throwing in the word chav makes you sound so authentic, except no one over here says that - nor would anybody who has spent much time here refer to anything as British. My undergrad University was in the top 5 in the country and my high school had a majority of students going to Oxbridge, so again, I guarantee I know more of their graduates than you (and before you suggest that I was not academically capable of going to Oxbridge - I did not apply) - suggesting I have only been associating/discussing grad school with chavs and third tier university graduates just goes to emphasise how little you know what you're talking about.

[JAubrey]

You actually don't know anything about my life so i'm not sure you can really comment on what I have or have not done or who I do or do not know. I can guarantee you that whatever you have done, I have family and friends who have far more senior roles in the hardest sectors to work in in this country and therefore, I do know better. You are American, you refer to going to "prep school" this term does not exist over here except when referring to being under the age of 11 so please stop trying to pretend you know more about England than an English person...its laughable. Good job throwing in the word chav makes you sound so authentic, except no one over here says that - nor would anybody who has spent much time here refer to anything as British. My undergrad University was in the top 5 in the country and my high school had a majority of students going to Oxbridge, so again, I guarantee I know more of their graduates than you (and before you suggest that I was not academically capable of going to Oxbridge - I did not apply) - suggesting I have only been associating/discussing grad school with chavs and third tier university graduates just goes to emphasise how little you know what you're talking about.

So because you know someone who has done what someone else has, you know better? Wow immaculate logic. As for Prep school if you were privately educated, it preceeds secondary school in the UK not to mention everyone alters their linguistics to a certain extent when speaking to different audiences, it is simply sensible. Regarding no one saying chav...where on Earth do you live? Because it certainly isn't the London I know or anywhere in the home counties. Unless it is up North / Scotland then do feel free to use NED. Finally, with the term British versus English you betray your own issues there, but that is something you can deal with on your own.

Have I spent over half my life in the UK? Yep. Am I American? Absolutely. The two are not mutually exclusive at all. There are Americans and many other foreigners at every major public school from Eton to Rugby to Shrewsbury to St Paul's and have been for quite sometime and the same goes for Oxbridge, Imperial, etc. It seems you are merely galled that an American citizen is contradicting you and *gasp* has a better background in the UK system. I'd imagine you are also the sort who complains about Londonistan and England for the English as well.

It is always amusing to hear people sniff and say "I could have gone to Oxbridge, I just didn't apply." Sure you could have you and so could every other student at Durham, St Andrews, Bristol, Exeter, etc. The only unis you could even make an argument for selecting over-Oxbridge in the UK are Imperial for sciences or maybe LSE at a push. And everyone I know at the latter two unis, still applied to Oxbridge (and generally did not get a place).

As for not knowing anything about your life, I do know your work experience in retail and "events", and one must be honest with one's self and admit it is hardly first-rate and I believe your acceptances reflect that. This isn't an insult, just a statement of fact. Clearly you are fairly defensive regarding USC which is quite expected and indeed understandable, but if you insist upon something like this that is patently untrue and your only defense are attacks on nationality your argument is already weak, you can only expect this manner of response.

For my part, I won't continue this any longer on the boards as it is of no use or interest to the OP or anyone else for that matter. If you wish to continue insisting upon your argument, you may PM me, otherwise why don't we allow people to return to their regularly scheduled programing.

[Eclectic4]

Hey guys,

Helpplease, have a great time at USC. Being a Cali native, I can say that it is a great place overall.

Also, although Penn is a "better school" overall as JAubrey and I have been saying, maybe you are right that the actual program at Price is better. I too am looking at Upenn Fels and there are some issues with that specific program not being that well known, it being small, and having a kind of generic focus.

So, in this case, maybe Price is a better program.

[rdr06001]

Hey guys,

Helpplease, have a great time at USC. Being a Cali native, I can say that it is a great place overall.

Also, although Penn is a "better school" overall as JAubrey and I have been saying, maybe you are right that the actual program at Price is better. I too am looking at Upenn Fels and there are some issues with that specific program not being that well known, it being small, and having a kind of generic focus.

So, in this case, maybe Price is a better program.

Yeah, this is what I'm afraid of. As I said before, Price definitely looks more rigorous on paper. Having said that, Fels offers a certificate in econ. dev., so I'm not worried about it being generic for my interests. Haven't committed anywhere yet, but I think it's going to be Penn. If I wanted to stay out west I'd probably opt for USC, but since I don't, I just don't see the advantage of getting a degree on the other side of the country.

Thanks again everyone!

[Helpplease123]

Nice that you feel the need to make the conversation into a personal attack and then announce this should stop - funnily enough I did mention that this discussion was not helping the OP several posts ago but you felt a need to carry on. Well I couldn't agree more but I will first address some of the things you felt necessary to attempt to insult me about.

Yes I am aware prep school is in England - I did in fact mention previously that prep school is the word we use for up to the age of 11. You however used it to refer to high school, something only done in the US. I was also privately educated but don't feel the need to brag about it at every turn, as you clearly do. For the purpose of demonstrating the ignorance in your post however, I will openly do so. My school was also one of the best in the country and although I shouldn't have to repeat myself, yes if I had wanted to go to Oxbridge, I could have gotten in - i'm not sure what you gain by arguing with me over that point. It is a highly pressured system, that I don't believe always works, instead I want to one of the next most highly ranked Universities and had a fantastic experience. Not once have I felt I missed out academically or otherwise from not going there.

Belittling my work experience is again ridiculous and petty, yes I worked in events for a year after University when I wasn't sure what else to do and then I spent two years in retail. Now I work for one of the UKs largest charities. Can I ask what is so inferior about that? Is Phillip Green a lazy nothing to you? I never said I spent two years working in a shop, in fact I spent the time working in a management and operations position for the biggest retailer in the UK - so I feel pretty happy about my work experience. It was enough to get me into one of the top MBA programs regularly mentioned on this forum last year. My only concern with my work experience was ever regarding its relevance to Public Administration - not its overall strength. Frankly, even if I had spent two years working in a shop - who are you to be so condescending about it?

Again, I hate you drawing me into these boasting wars but you are so arrogant it hurts - I didn't say "I know someone who did what someone else did" - I actually said that whatever you personally have achieved, I know people in more senior roles in top UK sectors. This is because I also have access to networks of parents, their friends, siblings husbands etc. many of whom have incredibly high profile roles - this is not meant as insulting to you but I can only assume that since you are discussing grad school you have a way to go up the ladder. Funny that you need to imply I went around asking idiots where might be a good place for me to study. I chose to apply to USC for a reason - I did quite a lot of research into the subject. I chose not to apply to Penn, not because I did not think I would get in, as i'm sure you'll jump to the conclusion. My problem is not that you are American and have opinions on viewpoints in the UK - it is the fact that you have delusions that your background in the UK system is somehow superior to mine, when it quite simply isn't. You may feel that your work experience is superior to mine but I can guarantee I know many people whose work experience is infinitely superior to yours, even if mine is not worthy of recognition in your eyes. Boring to have to harp on a point - I am from London and no, no one uses the word Chav anymore.

Penn is an AMAZING school and it really frustrates me to be brought into this discussion that is making it sound like I think otherwise - as previously stated - I was simply trying to give the OP an authentic international perspective on which Public Admin program is more well known over here.

Quick logistical question: how were you asking whether your GPA was good enough for MA IR at SIPA, WWS etc. in May last year and yet in Feb this year you said and I quote "Full disclosure, I went to graduate school in IR in the UK" and you managed to study at Science PO according to another thread too and a top British Uni yet elsewhere you said top 50...i'm confused as to what you've actually done and in what countries and how you've become and expert on absolutely everything.

Edited April 13, 2012 by Helpplease123

[Helpplease123]

Hey guys,

Helpplease, have a great time at USC. Being a Cali native, I can say that it is a great place overall.

Also, although Penn is a "better school" overall as JAubrey and I have been saying, maybe you are right that the actual program at Price is better. I too am looking at Upenn Fels and there are some issues with that specific program not being that well known, it being small, and having a kind of generic focus.

So, in this case, maybe Price is a better program.

Thanks - i'm looking forward to it! Apologies to everyone else for how this thread has deteriorated... I am sorry for answering the last message, I just felt that a public attack warranted a public defense on my part, nor did I wish to start PMing. Apologies rdr06001 - It sounds like Penn will be a great school for you, best of luck.

[Eclectic4]

I would say here is the probable truth:

Upenn is overall a far far better school, including prestige, programs, etc.

The MPA at Penn is less known, not as well built up, etc.

Probably, the MPA at Price is better developed.

So, this is a classic issue of the overall school versus a specific program.

However, I think that people are correct here that if someone wants to work in the Northeast, then they should go to UPenn's mpa.

[Eclectic4]

You are welcome!

Thanks - i'm looking forward to it! Apologies to everyone else for how this thread has deteriorated... I am sorry for answering the last message, I just felt that a public attack warranted a public defense on my part, nor did I wish to start PMing. Apologies rdr06001 - It sounds like Penn will be a great school for you, best of luck.