Undergrad that's struggling in chemistry. Am I doomed?

[ladeeda6]

I'm a biology major and I've had my butt handed to me every semester of chemistry I've taken. C in Gen Chem 1, C+ in Gen Chem 2 and my highest grade thus far on an organic chemistry exam in Organic Chemistry 1 has been a C. There's just something about chemistry that doesn't seem to click. (I also got a C in an intro bio class but in my current bio class, I'm sitting comfortably on an A with a 3.6 GPA all else considered). I can read the book and the notes and it clicks but come the exam, it's like "Where the hell did this come from?!" It's killing me. I breeze through labs no question. Lectures? Shoot me.

Are my hopes of graduate school dashed? I have research experience for a year and a half as a sophomore and I'm hoping to join a new lab next fall. I also plan to work for a year or so between undergrad and grad school to pay off some of my student loan debt.

I want to go to graduate school for immunology or pathology and I'm still torn about whether to go for an MS or PhD right off the bat. I also won't be applying to the tippity-top schools mostly because I'm completely ignorant with regards to rankings (I've been looking at Drexel, Villanova, Case -- because that's where my lab was/is, and Indiana in my early stages of searching).

I don't know what to do. I'm SO good with labs and biology (particularly micro) is my passion. It registers fairly quickly, I enjoy studying it and I love it. Chemistry? Organic Chemistry? I have never felt so stupid.

Aside from getting stellar GRE scores (another aspect that terrifies me, lol), do I have any chance of getting into a decent and funded program? If I do more research and get a publication or something and have amazing LoRs (my old PI was really fond of me, I just couldn't stay in his lab since I needed money and a job that pays for now), will that offset how terribly I'm doing in chemistry? Also, it offset my Chemistry-stupidity to get As in my biology classes? I feel like such a loser right now.

[milam1186]

Well... take biochemistry and do well in that. I did okay in freshman chemistry with a B both semesters. I had a bad Ochem experience because of personal issues during that year and I survived by the skin of my teeth with Cs in both semesters.

No one ever asked me about my ochem grades on interviews and I ended getting into a top-notch school for my PhD. I did venture into the wilderness for a master's degree though.

[ladeeda6]

Biochemistry is offered through the bio department and chemistry department. The one through the biology depart is required for my degree while the chemistry one is not. Should I take both? I'm just a bit worried that it'd put me behind a semester. Also, Organic Chemistry 2 isn't required for a degree in biology and it's not an explicit requirement for some graduate programs. My advisor told me that if I'm struggling so in ochem 1 and if I'm not certain I want to go to graduate school right away for a PhD, not to take the GPA hit.

I'd be okay with getting a Masters now to figure out what I want to do for certain with regards to a PhD, but is it possible to get funding for a Masters?

[milam1186]

I'd just do the biology requirement for biochem. There is probably a lot of overlap b/w the chem and bio ones.

I'd say take ochem2 and get any help you can. No sense limiting your options just because you're afraid you might not do well. Ochem is difficult for everyone at first, but once you get into it, it becomes doable. My second semester I got a 20 out of 100 on the first test and then got the highest score on the last test.

I went to a fully funded master's program. They do exist, you just have to search for them. A lot of the time, they aren't at the big name schools a lot of the time, those fund more PhD students and don't really care about the Master's students in sciences it seems.

[aberrant]

i could be wrong, but i doubt that you need to know everything from ochem for programs in immunology or pathology. i wouldn't take the class if I don't need it, or if it doesn't help much in my research in the future. if you have trouble to understand concepts, mechanisms, or theories from gchem / ochem, then you may have to memorize these things in order to do well in classes. and you definitely want to work on tons of practice problems to make yourself know all these things inside out.

you will certainly have no problem to get into grad school. just because you get a few Cs will not be a detrimental factor to eliminate yourself from a phd program. however, getting into a top tier, most competitive programs might be tricky. i would say that as long as you do well in classes that are related to immunology or pathology, you will be fine. (assuming you have competitive GREs, great LOR and SOP).

[Dapi]

Honesty, at least 2 of us who got into Harvard this year had "crap" gpa's. Apply anywhere you would want to go disregarding from rank. You'll never know unless you apply! And yes, take ochem 2 - most schools require a year of ochem. Don't spend money on a masters, put that to use now and get a tutor! Good luck.

Research experience, strong LORs and a good statement will carry you much farther than gpa/GRE scores.

[Airwalker]

Same stuff as everything else other people have said. Nobody cares about your grades so long as your overall is above 3.0 due to funding requirements by the federal government. I did terrible in Chemistry because it just isn't my thing, but did fine if Biology and Biochem. No grad school where you are applying to a mol bio program or something of the like is going to reject you because of chemistry grades... They would eliminate a lot of their good app pool if they did that. Just work hard, and best of all, if you can publish at least one thing, you will be set.

[ladeeda6]

Three other graduate schools I am interested in but forget in the OP are the University of Cincinnati, Kent State University and Ohio State University. They are all located in the state where I want to work and are very well known here (particularly Cincinnati and OSU). I have been using location as a guide more so than rankings because of areas I would want to live in for 6 years in graduate school and schools that are well known in the area where I want to work. Is this a good idea? I've spoken to students that seem to be more rankings obsessed than anything but I don't know if that's a good guide for me to follow.

Also, when I take ochem 2, would it look bad to take it at a community college? I transferred from that CC to my current 4-year and I am very familiar with the professor who teaches the course because he was actively involved in the lab at CWRU where I interned and is the director of a program at the CC who facilitated my internship. I really, really want to avoid my current instructor who makes this difficult class even more so by not following any sort of textbook. He thinks they all are useless and are boring and serve little to no purpose. Because of this, he teaches what he feels is more appropriate. This would not be such a big problem if he gave sample problems that fit in with this like any textbook would, but he doesn't because he doesn't feel like it. I try to follow along with the book as much as I can, but he likes going off on tangents so it's pretty difficult. The professor at the CC is much more straightforward in his teachings and is much more willingly to give corresponding practice problems and work them out in class where my current instructor refuses. (I'm not exactly sure why, though).

Sorry for the long posts. I just really have little idea where to start in this process and I don't want to fall behind.

[aberrant]

I have been using location as a guide more so than rankings because of areas I would want to live in for 6 years in graduate school and schools that are well known in the area where I want to work. Is this a good idea?

I personally encourage others to move to somewhere else (hopefully out of state) for grad school just to experience a new culture and learn to work with different kind of people (e.g. laid back vs. blue-collar vs. white-collar). These experience are necessary in the future, and it will only do you good.

Also, when I take ochem 2, would it look bad to take it at a community college? I transferred from that CC to my current 4-year and I am very familiar with the professor who teaches the course because he was actively involved in the lab at CWRU where I interned and is the director of a program at the CC who facilitated my internship. I really, really want to avoid my current instructor who makes this difficult class even more so by not following any sort of textbook. He thinks they all are useless and are boring and serve little to no purpose. Because of this, he teaches what he feels is more appropriate. This would not be such a big problem if he gave sample problems that fit in with this like any textbook would, but he doesn't because he doesn't feel like it. I try to follow along with the book as much as I can, but he likes going off on tangents so it's pretty difficult. The professor at the CC is much more straightforward in his teachings and is much more willingly to give corresponding practice problems and work them out in class where my current instructor refuses. (I'm not exactly sure why, though).

it doesn't make sense to me if it looks "bad" just because you take classes at a CC. the quality of the education you receive at CC is not different than a regular 4-year university (assuming it is U.S. accredited.) so, as a student, you would choose whichever best option for you to learn the subject. I went to CC, I took all my gchem and ochem courseworks at CC, I am a Chemistry major, and I got into somewhere.

Just off the topic--I do agree that the learning experience that I have at CC is a lot better than my current school. Small class size education definitely make the learn process more efficient.

[ladeeda6]

Thanks!

The reason why I asked if it would look bad was because I had a chance to meet the head of admissions at the Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine and she made a point of mentioning that there is sometimes a bit of in-fighting when they are reviewing applicants about whether or not they attended CC and whether or not they took upper-level science classes at a CC. She told us that she personally looks down on it, but others in the committee don't (particularly with the current state of the economy and the rising costs of tuition). I like taking courses at CC, too, because of the small class sizes. It makes for good potential LOR writers for internships and things.

[GandalfTheGrey]

You're not doomed, and you're certainly not a loser - many students struggle with ochem, but that doesn't mean that you shall not pass!

I would suggest finding a tutor to help you bring up your chemistry grade this semester and for any future chemistry classes. While your GPA won't necessarily prevent you from being accepted to the programs you want, it can only help your application in a competitive applicant pool if you have the best GPA you can. With a decent tutor, you probably wouldn't even need to hire them for too many hours - when I took OChem in college, I also struggled because things wouldn't click. But after a few hours with a tutor, things suddenly clicked and I didn't need the tutor anymore, and I got a B in the class instead of the D I had before the tutor. Everyone is different, of course, but you're obviously good at science since you do well in your labs and bio courses, so I would think that getting a tutor is probably a worthwhile investment so that you don't have to worry about chem grades holding you back. Having a tutor can also make your studying more efficient, leaving you with more time to do research or get a job, both of which would further boost the strength of your application.

In terms of taking classes at the Community College, I think that what matters most is that you learn the material, and if that will happen best at the CC, the go for it. However, some Biology grad programs will require you to take an upper-level chem course as part of the degree, so one could also argue that taking the undergrad courses at a 4-year university will be good practice/preparation for taking them in grad school, when you won't have the CC option.

Good luck with your courses and with grad school!

[risingsun11801]

I struggled through ochem at OU several years ago, and luckily got curved up to a C. I actually retook 2/3 quarters of ochem at OSU several years after graduation, and aced it. The instructor made a BIG difference to me. That, and using the models! Even though I retook it with better grades, no one in any of my interviews mentioned it. I had a lot of dismal grades in science classes my first 2.5 years. I wasn't sure what I wanted to do, so I had no focus and it took me longer to develop different types of study skills. I am completely fine with hands-on stuff in the lab. Grad school is not med school. It doesn't matter what grades you earned in what class, as long as your overall GPA is above 3.0 and you did well in the class that relates to your future grad degree (immunology, ect.) Focus on getting research experience and a clear direction of why you want to attend graduate school. Even in a PhD program, your grades don't matter as long as you maintain your 3.0 GPA. The research is what matters.

If you insist on taking ochem or you may want to apply to professional school, my friend took the entire year of ochem one summer at Capital University I think. It was a lot of information at once and cost a bit much, but if you have time to completely devote yourself to learning ochem this may be an option.

[esmivida]

Hi there, I got a C- in orgo 2 (B in orgo 1, A's in genchem - this is all at a top 10 university) and I'm going to Harvard (PhD) in the fall. I also thought my C- would ruin me (I got a B- in both molecular bio and physics, also) but it didn't. I took Biochem and did well, but graduate schools didn't see that grade and I didn't mention it during interviews. I've done a lot of research though and have a publication, so I don't think my 3.5 GPA was a big deal. I also did very well on the GRE (90th percentile in both)

So, if the other parts of your application are strong, I see no reason to count yourself out.

[ladeeda6]

...the final's tomorrow and I need a miracle. I have a C (thanks to extra credit) in this class now and if I get anything lower than a 70 on the final tomorrow, I'm done. Truthfully, if the Chemistry Gods take pity on my poor, stupid self, I'd still retake the class (or audit it) before taking ochem II. My knowledge is waaaay too shaky to go any further in the sequence.

It's really making me re-think, well, everything. If I can't do any better than C's in my chemistry classes, what hope do I have of getting admitted to or succeeding in graduate school? I thought I wanted a MSc in something biomed related and found a few schools that provide tuition waivers and stipends for MSc students, but I can't help but feel really defeated right now. I'm acing my bio class and I really enjoy it and microbiology but when my chem professor mentioned that those that are struggling in this class might need to rethink their career choices, my heart dropped. I mean, I've met Chemistry PhD students that didn't know/remember jack ish about Gen Chem or Organic Chemistry and weren't even able to do three-step conversions. But they did well in those classes during undergrad, so I guess it didn't matter anymore.

Surely it doesn't help that I didn't take lab with this class or Gen Chem 2 because I never realized how much it helped with Gen Chem 1, but maybe I'm not cut out to be a scientist no matter how much I like biology or how much I love being in a research lab. And I really do. I even miss the smell of my first research lab (seriously).

...this is depressing. It's like finding out Santa isn't real all over again.

Edited May 8, 2012 by ladeeda6

[aberrant]

can't you retake those classes?

[ladeeda6]

Yes. I can retake organic chemistry but wouldn't it be too late to retake any of the gen chem classes since they were from last spring and fall? I'm already looking to see when a retake of ochem could fit into my schedule. I just don't want D staring back at me on my transcript. Or have it make getting a MSc that more difficult. And I've also been told to take it as a sign that science and I don't mix...but I don't know what else I'd ever want to do unless I hit the next super lotto jackpot.

[aberrant]

I guess the first thing you should do is to ask yourself why do you want to go to grad school? Is it because you want to make more money with a graduate degree? Or is it because immunology/pathology is something that you love, such that you want to learn more about it even if you may not earn big bucks in the future? (that's the worst scenario, and yet possible).

If you wanna go to grad school for money reasons, then it may not be a good idea to do that (obviously). it's not a necessity to land on a good job with a graduate degree. Getting a MS may (or may not) give you an edge to get a job with better starting wage/salary -- it depends on the field that you want to work in, the position that you want to take, the competitiveness of the job market for that particular field, etc. On the flip side, getting a PhD may get you in a job with a better starting wage, but the process of getting a PhD is long and challenging. You degree may also limits your options (field(s) that you wanna work) because you may be considered as "overqualified". So switching fields in the workforce may be tricky.

I think that taking sometime off, "for a year or so between undergrad and grad school to pay off some of my student loan debt" as you said, is a great idea since it will give you more time to think about your career in future (besides paying off your student loan). If you decided grad school is the one and only place that you want to go, then I would retake all these classes -- not for the GPA reasons, but to show that I have the ability to master these coursework/materials/knowledge under the right circumstances. While retaking "any of the gen chem classes" is too late for GPA purposes, it is never too late to show that you got the ability to do well in those classes. You can audit (and relearn) these classes 1 class at a time at your alma mater, until you are fully comfortable with the information/materials that you will do well in quizzes/exams and take these classes elsewhere (I supposed you can't retake it at your alma mater if you passed it.)

If that's too much work, then don't dwell on it and keep your bio- engine rolling. It's not the end of the world with a couple of Cs that are not quite relevant to what you wanna study anyway (as mentioned in my previous posts).

Just my 2 cents.

[ladeeda6]

Thanks so much!

I have started looking around at a lot of the places for possible future employment to see where I'd stand with a BS vs MS vs a PhD. I live near quite a few universities and research hospitals that hire a lot of research associates and I've seen a few positions that I'd qualify for once I graduate. I think I'll aim for one of those after I finish school with my BS to see if graduate is really what I want to do. I just sort of assumed that a MS would be a good medium between a BS and PhD for job qualifications but the more I look into it, the more I see that it isn't necessarily the case.