Classics Post-Baccalaureate

[bluesweater]

...

[pangur-ban]

I looked at UCLA's program, but the advisor said I didn't have enough Latin and Greek to apply (they require at least one year of each to start it). A friend of mine applied to Classics PhD programs and got offered a spot in a post-bac instead. The UCLA one seems pretty competitive though, since they only have 12 spots a year.

For the SOP, my initial thoughts would be to spend a bit of time on your post-BA pursuits, but only if you can use them to explain why you want to go back to Classics. I'd mostly talk about my future research goals, past academic experience, what I hoped to get out of the program, etc.

[wheel_of_fire]

UPenn has a good post-bac program. Several people at my top ten school did that program before coming to the PhD program in classics here.

[ode_to_joy(ce)]

I concur on the UPenn statement. From a close friend, I know they are top-notch, and regularly send their grads to the top Ph.D. programs (Penn, Stanford, Berkeley -- and those are just the past two years). For the SOP, I would suggest emphasizing that you know you lack the language skills (otherwise why else would you apply to the post-bac), but that you are hoping the post-bac will remedy that problem. I don't know about UCLA or Columbia (I think Georgetown and UNC also do post-bacs), but you can't go wrong with Penn.

[justsomeone]

Does anyone know if the Penn post-bac is extremely competitive? I mean, I know Penn is a fantastic school but I'm just wondering how many people actually apply to that program... If anyone has any insight it would be much appreciated

[veilside]

The deadline for applying to UPenn's Post-Bacc has already passed... was March 15. From what I understand it is quite competative. They take a good dozen or so, but there are, according to their website, more qualified applicants than they have room for. I have applyed for this upcoming fall's program there, but it may not be too late to apply to Columbia, UNC-CH, or UCLA... they also have good post-bacc programs, and might have a later deadline than UPenn. Good luck though.

[blukorea]

The Penn Post-bac program will not transform you into a top applicant. It is strictly an intensive language program, for the students who need some more semesters of Greek and Latin. Students who advance to top PhD programs already enter the Post-bac with stellar qualifications; there are students, on the other hand, who drop out and fail to get any funded admissions.

From the University's perspective, the program transfers excess resources in the department (since only few students major in Classics as undergraduates) and makes a profitable use of them. It is, to be direct, a profit-driven program (although many will find it cheaper than than some other schools that offer it). Because of this, I would presume, the program often finds itself admitting more students than those whom they reject.

That said, the post-bac director at Penn is fantastic and it is fun to live at Philly for a year, so I hope you will all enjoy the experience!

[justsomeone]

I thank you both for your responses.

Veilside, I realize I was being a bit ambiguous on my last past. I have, in fact, applied to the Penn Post-bac for next fall. I was just being an anxious applicant and wondering if anyone had some inside information. I have heard the best things about Penn's post-bac, so I haven't applied to any of the others. I know Columbia's admissions is open until June so if I get a big rejection there is hope yet! But who knows, maybe we will be classmates come the fall?

I guess I don't expect this program to "transform me into a stellar applicant" or anything like that. Hopefully, I won't need a complete transformation, just some concentrated work on my language skills before I apply to grad school. Also, I come from a less well-known school and I would assume it would be helpful to establish that I can perform well at a more respected institution, like Penn. And, like you said, Philly sounds like it could be a fun place to live for a year! We'll see I guess. And at least it is a "fraction of the cost" of a regular Ivy leage ed...

[veilside]

As far as the whole 'transforming' thing goes, there is something to it. As justsomeone has pointed out, if one comes from a not-so-well-known university, this surely makes you stand out more. I also come from a lesser known school, SUNY-Albany, who actually has a diminished classics dept and have a "program" now instead. There are a few issues that can be tranformed from taking a post-bacc first...they are:

1. Your language skills, which PhD programs see as being the most obvious obstacle to overcome for all applicants, regardless of their qualifications otherwise, are then properly remedied. To have a dedicated year of study for the sole puropse of strengthening language abilities will surely bring you a step closer to a top PhD program.

2. Your status. Being a senior in an undergraduate program when applying is a weakness. You cannot show the last fall grades, only what you are enrolled in, and have nothing to show for the spring. This is bad becasue who's to say that your grades will not fall off a cliff, or that you'll end up withdrawing from certain courses that the PhD program sees on your current list ony to have you drop or withdraw later. By being a graduate you show a definate GPA, and have a solid and final list transcript.

3. Your realization. By taking a post-bacc program it shows that you are serious about being able to perform in a PhD setting. You are mature enough to be able to realize that you are not quite ready for a PhD in classics and that to humbly take a year in limbo, so to speak, shows your commitment.

4. UPenn is an Ivy. The fact that the post-bacc will be acheived at an ivy league school holds a good deal of weight in and of itself. Especially if one comes from a lesser known school it gives an admissions committee something else to go on, namely that you are *now* of the calibre that they would expect. Even if they happen to admit more than they should, which I'm not so sure is the case, to be able to survive a year of intensive Greek and Latin at a demanding school is quite tasking. For example, according to UPenn's official post-bacc in classics site it states that 1/3 of the graduates end up not pursuing any further education (there's your excess of students for making money), another 1/3 go on to graduate work but not in classics at all (perhaps even more of the "excess" students), and only 1/3 of the incoming class go on a PhD in classics or ancient history. Of those who do go on for a classics PhD go to other Ivies, and the "par-ivies" (Stanford, UC-Berkeley, Chicago, Chapel Hill, etc,..)

4. Who reccomends you. By having a professor, or two from an Ivy be a recc for you, you have greatly increased your appeal to any admissions committee... No matter what, the elite schools are a closed circuit, and having any insider help you can, will only benefit you all the more.

5. What admissions committes say, it definetely does matter. A professor of mine is close friends with the former head of the classics department at Cornell. And he told her that:

"for as long as I was the head of the department we usually took all the post-bac students from Penn.....let me rephrase that; we 'always' take the post-bac students from Penn!"

Direct from an ivy department head's mouth. Now bear in mind that it was surely the last 1/3 that applied there, and I find it likely that they have denied one or two over the years, but the bottom line is this:

While a post-bacc in classics from UPenn will not guarantee admission to a top PhD program in classics, nor tranform you into a top-applicant, it can greatly improve your chances of getting in, and one could argue that that, in and of itself, is transforming you.

Sorry... that was somewhat long-winded, but felt I had to get all of that out...

[Magnocaudax]

I'm currently in the Penn program, and as far as I know, we do have several post-bacs who get into doctoral programs in Classics this year, including some top ones. (that is, Berkeley, Harvard, Cornel, UNC, Princeton etc.)

We have some 30+ people this year. The postbac admission is not so selective: people do come with different language backgrounds. Some of them come with only one-year or so in their weaker languge. But if you wished to get into a top doctoral program, you would come with more years in both, since the application process begins as early as November, and you have to impress your professors within that short time to get a persuasive LOR.

Some of my classmates dropped out for various reasons, but those who stay do have a fairer chance to get in than those who apply directly from undergraduate insitutions, even when their language strengths are similar. LORs from the postbac advisors do carry a lot more weight, since they advise 20+ applicants each year and can make persuasive comparisons for you. But anyhow, whereas the program is an abusolutely wonderful one, I don't think it will guarantee that you get into any sort of program: you should come with some reasonable expectations based on where you are before you enter.

[veilside]

Magnocaudax,

When you entered the program did you take the summer intensive Greek there at UPenn? And if so, what text do they use? I am in the second half of my elementary Greek now (we use "Athenaze"), and if accepted to UPenn, I would take both the intensive elementary and intensive intermediate Greek before beginning the seminars in the fall. I know that there are very limited introductory Greek texts, and surely there are also limited ones for intermediate as well, just curious if you know what they use there.

Also, I understand that they encourage you to take other courses while there besides the standard seminars in Greek and Latin, but are you allowed to cross-register to say, Princeton? When you do take other courses there are you allowed to take graduate courses, or are you limited to undergrad ones?

One more question.... How does the cost all figure out? I understand that being a post-bacc you are eligable for certain loans and scholarships, so when it all boils down how does it come out in the end, are you left with a bill or just a loan to reapay?

Thanks.

[Magnocaudax]

Hi Veilside,

I didn't take the summer courses. I somehow think that they use Hansen & Quinn, but I'm not too sure about it.

About course selection, yes, you can take graduate courses with permission from the teacher of that particular course, and you pay only the LPS tuition for it, which is half the original. Many people take graduate courses, and it's to your great advantage if you do well in them. But I don't think you can cross-register to Princeton and get credit from there. It's two hours or so by NJ transit to Princeton, by the way, so it's not quite practicable unless you drive there.

The cost in tuition and fees etc., which I think you can find on their website, is about $ 2,400 per course-unit. So if you take, say, three courses per semester, it's about $14,500 a year plus health insurance. And living in west philly is not too expensive. You are eligible for loans, but as far as I know, not for scholarships. And if you take three or more course-units (two post-bacs and a graduate), you probably won't have much time to work along the way.

Magnocaudax,

When you entered the program did you take the summer intensive Greek there at UPenn? And if so, what text do they use? I am in the second half of my elementary Greek now (we use "Athenaze"), and if accepted to UPenn, I would take both the intensive elementary and intensive intermediate Greek before beginning the seminars in the fall. I know that there are very limited introductory Greek texts, and surely there are also limited ones for intermediate as well, just curious if you know what they use there.

Also, I understand that they encourage you to take other courses while there besides the standard seminars in Greek and Latin, but are you allowed to cross-register to say, Princeton? When you do take other courses there are you allowed to take graduate courses, or are you limited to undergrad ones?

One more question.... How does the cost all figure out? I understand that being a post-bacc you are eligable for certain loans and scholarships, so when it all boils down how does it come out in the end, are you left with a bill or just a loan to reapay?

Thanks.

[justsomeone]

That's steeper than I thought... The Penn website indicates that 4 Course Units (which means four classes, correct?) costs around $10,500. Are they hiding some fees from us here? Or perhaps I am misunderstanding how Course Units equate to classes.

M, if you don't mind sharing I would be interested in hearing what your plans are following Post-bac. The number of students in the program is far greater than I had anticipated. But I am happy to see that you seem to consider the experience a valuable one.

[veilside]

Magnocaudax,

Thanks. My reasons for wanting to take a course at Princeton is due to the fact that they are my number one choice, due to Edward Champlin, and to have an opportunity to take a course with him before applying to grad programs again next year would most likely prove to be only to my benefit (so that he personally know me, and more importantly my abilities). Even if it were not for credit, some kind of audit, I wouldn't mind... and I plan on driving, but maybe Philly is not quite the easiest city to drive in and around in... so, who knows about that, but either way I would love to have a chance to sit in on one of his courses.

How are the seminar classes set up? I mean, in the upper level Latin that I am taking now we, basically, translate x number of lines from an original author, come to class and take turns reading our translations, and perhaps a little bit of grammar discussions here and there, but no tests, quizzes, or finals. Is the post-bacc seminars similar to this, in that they are in-class performance graded, or are there tests and such?

Is it appropriate to ask for a LOR from those outside of the post-bacc program there? For example, if I was taking a class with Professor Grey, would this be out of line to ask him, since prof. Nishimura-Jensen is probably expecting most post-bacc students to ask her for one it wouldn;t be out of line to ask with such a small amount of time being a student of theirs... But someone outside of LPS might look not so favorably on this... is this the case?

Thank you.

[Magnocaudax]

Hi J,

The tuition I gave is for one-year, whereas the cost given on their site is for one semester only. One "course-unit" here means one semester-long course. As for myself, I plan to enter a graduate program in classics, but I'm still deciding where to go.

Veilside,

You can of course ask for LOR from anyone you take course with, and many people do, provided that the professor knows you well enough to write persuasively. For this purpose, a smaller class is often better than a more populous one, and a graduate better than an undergraduate. You give presentations, translate, and do other works. There are plenty of chances that you can impress people in three months. In postbac seminars, we translate Greek and Latin texts (which we prepared before class) orally, (i.e. without previously written down translations), and we take mid-term and final exams which are exclusively passage-translations.

As for the Princeton course, I don't know if anyone here had done that before. But you can always e-mail people to see if it could work out.

[justsomeone]

Of course, per year, as you clearly stated.

I will have to improve my reading comprehension if I have any hope whatsoever of attending grad school some day.

[veilside]

Magnocaudax,

Thank you again for all the quick and helpful replies... Everything sounds great about the program there, and I already feel very excited about proving myself there, and I'm not even accpeted yet. But, hopefully I will here by the end of next week as Professor Nishimura-Jensen told me that they tend to reply in a few weeks so that those who are taking summer courses there (myself included) can make adequate preparations.... I really hope that all goes through for me and I know that my LOR's are very strong, I have a 3.83 major GPA and a 3.52 Cumm GPA, already have 9 semesters of Latin, and am finishing my second in Greek.. so hopefully all comes through here.... I'll keep my fingers crossed... Good luck to everyone else applying to the program here or elsewhere....

[justsomeone]

veilside you got my hopes up that we would hear today... haha, but still no news on this end. if i'm this antsy after two weeks of waiting for post-bac news i can't imagine my nerves when i eventually apply to grad school.

[veilside]

I might have mispoken before.... I re-read the email from Professor Nishimura-Jensen and she stated that they typically try to notify the apps within "three weeks" since if they are taking summer course they can make the proper arrangements in time.... that being said, this is week three coming up, so hopefuly we all will hear sometime this week.... Good luck to us all

[veilside]

I just logged in to find out that I am accepted!!!!

Good luck everyone.