PhD in Germany worth it?

[rogerpaul]

Hi,

I am completing a PhD program in the Social Sciences (Global Studies) in Germany. However, this is a three year program, and I am having doubts as to how valuable the degree is, without EU citizenship. I have no chances in my home country where the academic culture is feudal and archaic. I was thinking of dropping this one (putting three years as research and teaching experience) and applying for grad school in Canada. Or should I stick with this and apply for post docs in Canada? My supervisor also has become a lot less attentive since I told him that I do not want to go back to my home country. I have two options....

A> complete the degree, that is a PhD in Global Studies with a policy relevant thesis in a "booming" area in public policy and apply for post docs

B. Leave this and apply for a single discipline PhD program in Canada or the US, but my math sucks and I don t know if I can ace the GRE.

Please help.

I am too depressed.

[TakeruK]

It sounds like you are almost finished your 3 year program, so it would make sense, to me, for you to complete it and apply to both post-docs and other PhD programs at the same time. I'm assuming that 2012-2013 is the third and final year of your program so this winter would be the time to be applying to both PhDs and post-docs! Even if you leave your program now, you probably won't be able to start a new PhD until 2013 anyways, so why not keep as many doors open as possible?

Leaving a PhD program will raise flags in your application but going for a second PhD will also be unusual. A second PhD is probably less damaging than quitting a previous graduate program though!

I wonder why your supervisor cares whether or not you want to return to your home country?

As for feeling like the degree won't get you anywhere -- I think that's a pretty common feeling across all graduate students. Not to trivialize your situation, since I don't know anything about your school, country, or field, but just to let you know that you are probably not alone in feeling this way. But since you are almost completed your degree and probably can be applying to post-docs/other PhDs this winter, why not go ahead and do that and see what happens!

[Germany2012]

Is it really a PhD program (PhD after name) or a Promotion to obtain the Dr. - title in front of the name ?

The Dr. - title has much more value but it depends on the subject.

It has the highest value in law and engineering where it separates top-earners from moderate or low earners.

For example when I search for a patent attorney candidate in chemistry I don't take applicants without the promotion or only in very special cases.

In many subjects the title cannot be overestimated. It still has a high prestige on German doorbells.

It is easy to obtain the degree in biology and medicine. In biology it is needed to get a job at all, in medicines the studies are long also without promotion and you get it easily and quickly then.

In social sciences, politics, psychology it has not that high value but every landlord will prefer you in cities where small flats are over-demanded (Munich) and many bank clerks will estimate you richer, even if it is not that true. It's also valuable on the marriage market.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Germany2012

[Duna]

@ Germany2012: I disagree...

Where does that information come from?

How do you even want to distinguish between someone who got his doctorate from a Ph.D. program in the US or a Dr. without the person telling you (or putting it in the CV or whatever)? It is allowed to use the Dr. in Germany instead of Ph.D. (as long as it's from a research university, ref. to Carnegie Association of Advanced Teaching).

(but it's off topic anyways because whether the degree is worth something in Germany is not even the point...)

Edited July 29, 2012 by Saviya

[Germany2012]

It comes from the (German) reality. Real labour world, not forums or student fantasies, not what universities or official vacancy notices tell.

I just replied because he asked about a PhD obtained in Germany. I can only point out that the PhD system is new to Germany and the PhD might be appreciated at companies as BASF or in the university where exactly it was obtained but it has less value 100 kilometres away and much less outside those special worlds. In contrast a Dr.-title is striking. Every hotel and every ragtag and bobtail respects a Dr.

It is not allowed in Germany to call yourselves a Dr. (in front of name), but you can request to have your US-PhD changed into the academic Dr.-title which will work without problems when it is obtained at a renowned US university. (US top 20, after some approval also with others) Some PhD graduates (US Top 5 !!!) were sued with dramatic consequences to them, it's not regarded as peccadillo or anything close to. Just recently it all got very easy with top 20 PhDs. Probably such dramatic punishments would not exactly occur again, but I would not try.

In most subjects it is really not easy to have the chance to "promote" (how it is called to obtain the Dr.-title) while it is relatively easy to get into (any) PhD program and bring it to a successful end.

A Dr. - title (obtained at any university) is really distinguishing while with PhDs it very much depends where it is obtained. This system is still very new to Germany and it will take decades to work as in the US. For only academic value-added the highest academic rank in Germany is Dr. habil.

(As it is common practice in most countries you will have to explain your regional title on your business cards (including most of all where it was obtained) whenever you are in another country or in another economic zone. The US research universities are an exception because many of them are known worldwide and as best (still different, no matter how appreciated and leading they are). In contrast whoever cannot study medicines in Germany, not even in Austria, still can do it (in German) in Hungary. He then must write "(university of Budapest)", but indeed he can later work as physician back home in Germany. This Hungarian faculty has more or less specialized on German students. Over the three decades its reputation has become proper up to decent but still the "university of Budapest" is needed on every doorbell and a little handicap, it used to be more a handicap in the past, still it is no plus)

Edited July 30, 2012 by Germany2012

[Duna]

Führung von US-amerikanischen bzw. kanadischen

Ph.D.-Forschungsgraden in Deutschland

Beschluss der Kultusministerkonferenz vom 15. Mai 2008.

Laut KMK-Beschluss vom 15. Mai 2008 können Inhaber eines PhD (Doctor of Philosophy)

von bestimmten amerikanischen Universitäten in Deutschland die deutsche Abkürzung "Dr."

ohne Einschränkung, d.h. ohne fachlichen Zusatz und ohne Herkunftsbezeichnung führen.

Es sind dies die Universitäten, deren Forschungsaktivitäten laut Carnegie Classification als

high bzw. very high eingestuft sind:

Laut Carnegie Foundation gibt es etwa 280 doctorate-granting universities in den USA

Diese Universitäten vergeben mindestens 20 wissenschaftliche Doktorgrade jährlich. Sie sind

enthalten im Web unter http://classifications.carnegiefoundation.org/descriptions/basic.php.

Nicht dazu zählen die sog. Berufsdoktorate / professional doctorates, die auf bestimmte

reglementierte Berufe vorbereiten, z.B. JD, MD, PharmD, DPT. Die Carnegie-Einteilung lautet:

▪ 96 Research Universities (RU/VH) – very high research activity)

▪ 103 Research Universities (RU/H) – high research activity)

▪ 84 Doctoral/Research Universities (DRU)

Für die dritte Kategorie gilt der Beschluss der KMK vom Mai 2008 wegen zu geringer

Forschungsaktivitäten NICHT. Inhaber eines PhD von einer Kanadischen Universität können generell ebenfalls die deutsche Abkürzung „Dr.“ ohne Einschränkung führen.

source: http://usa.fh-hannover.de/carnegie-graduate.pdf

Srsly, do some research before you come up with stuff...

[Germany2012]

Thanks for this information. Really sad to hear that. Now even universities of applied sciences can give the degree and they do that. So you really need the habil. to make a difference.

Srsly, thanks for dating me up.

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outdated:

Non-European PhDs In Germany Find Use Of 'Doktor' Verboten

http://www.washingto...31304353_2.html

They all hold doctoral degrees from elite universities back home

...

D. Baer, a spokesman for the ministry, said officials planned to drop (/the) cases. "We spoke with the parties involved and determined they had no criminal intent," he said. "They were given instructions as to how they can refer to their titles," by citing the degree but not calling themselves doctors.

Another American investigated by police is an astrophysicist with a doctorate from Caltech and membership in the German Academy of Sciences.

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To the very best of my knowledge somebody can of course only wear a title exactly as given (, PhD or Dr.) while it is possible to interchange which will need an approval. (when not obtained from the 199 US research universities)

Edited July 31, 2012 by Germany2012