Switching to classics from another field -- advice appreciated

[ἠφανισμένος]

Hi everyone,

I’m considering applying to classics MAs for Fall 2014 and would appreciate any thoughts on my chances. Sorry for all the verbiage below -- hopefully I've anticipated some of the first questions that usually come up on threads like these.

Stats

BA English, minors in philosophy and Spanish, 4.0 GPA

Unknown small liberal arts college

four semesters of Attic Greek (intro to intermediate)

GRE: 710A/690Q/5.5W (2010)

I’m currently at a large state university doing an MA in Teaching English as a Second Language. I anticipate finishing this program in December ’13 or May ’14 with a 4.0 GPA or close to it. In case it’s relevant, I have TAd either one or two ESL writing courses each semester as the primary instructor.

Language experience

Greek: This semester, I’m taking a graduate-level class (reading about 10 OCT pages per week of Demosthenes, Lysias, Gorgias, and other orators) in my university’s well-known classics program and anticipate getting an A. Hopefully this will result in a useable letter of rec. Before I leave, I expect to have taken at least one more graduate level Greek class. On my own, I’ve read several dialogues of Plato, most of the New Testament, a few books of the Septuagint, and several letters by Clement and Ignatius. I’ve also worked as an assistant teacher for an intensive summer Greek course and will teach that course on my own next year.

Latin: I have taken no formal Latin courses (yeah . . . I know). I will rectify that either next semester or Fall 2013 by taking third- or fourth-semester Latin here. In the meantime, I’m working on Caesar, Gallic Wars I and the Cicero’s first Catilinian oration. I’m also reading a chapter of the Vulgate every day. In addition, I’m planning to take the University of Toronto’s Level I medieval Latin exam next semester.

Modern languages: I have reading knowledge of French and Spanish, am close to having reading knowledge of Italian, and will attempt to at least start German before applying.

I am looking particularly at Kentucky and Georgia, though I’ll likely apply to a few more programs. For the MA, UK recommends three years of work in one language and two in the other; UGA does not state specific admission requirements that I could find on their website, but they do offer a Greek-only track in the MA. Since my Latin is weak, I could apply for the Greek track rather than Greek and Latin, and then take Latin anyway were I admitted.

By the time I apply, I’ll have presented at least once at a statewide classics conference. (I’ll have also presented at an international conference in my current field, if that matters.)

Unfortunately, my finances do not permit doing an unfunded postbac.

In sum: I know my most significant weakness is Latin, and my Greek coursework is minimal so far. But I’m hoping my demonstrated dedication to the field (taking classics courses as an MA student in another program), research productivity (presentations), and modern language preparation will help balance that out.

And now for a barrage of questions. How crazy am I? Do I have a real shot at either of these MAs? What can I do to improve my chances beyond taking every Greek and Latin class I can, which won’t be many, and reading as much as I can on my own? Is the University of Toronto medieval Latin exam a good idea? I know it’s not classical Latin, but I figure anything to bolster my Latin credentials would be a good thing (and I’m interested in later Latin and Imperial Greek, so it’s not completely irrelevant to what my thesis would likely deal with). Regarding letters of rec, how much of a factor will it be that only one of my letters will be from a classicist? (I may be able to get another letter from a classicist, but one who has more experience with my Greek teaching than with my reading ability and my scholarly potential.)

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[whydoiloveLatin]

Hi. I'm not sure how helpful this is but have you looked into KCL's Post-Graduate Diploma in the Classical Studies? It's a one year program and I completed it in 2011. At that time the entry requirement was a BA in any field as long as it was not Classics or Ancient History related. I took it because my BA is in Electrical Engineering and even though I minored in the Classical Studies I still did not have enough experience to jump into the Classics. By doing the post-grad. dip. you could get some more experience in the languages and you could also take classes in the modern languages on your own time, for free.

[ἠφανισμένος]

Thanks for the tip, but as I mentioned somewhere in my far-too-long OP, an unfunded postbac (or diploma) is not an option.

[Conscia Fati]

Hi Petros,

It's always a bit tricky guessing how someone will fare with his/her applications. I hate to say, but I'm afraid in your case that your lack of experience with the languages will make it difficult for you to get into a funded terminal masters. I definitely think you should apply -- you never know! -- but I agree with the poster above: a post-bacc sounds like a really good idea in your case, if you are serious about pursuing classics. Might I suggest that you apply to a couple post-baccs in addition to your MA programs, just as "back-ups?

Good luck!

[ἠφανισμένος]

I am aware that a postbac would be the most sensible thing, and I do appreciate the advice, but an unfunded postbac is simply not an option for me due to financial and logistical reasons. Let me refocus my question (with apologies for my wall of text OP).

I understand that on paper my languages are weak, and that whatever I do read outside of class won't count for much (though I hope it's at least better than nothing). However, I was hoping that my lack of language coursework would be counterbalanced, to some extent, by the following things: presentations, modern languages (could pass French and Italian exams on arrival), and teaching experience (though not in classics, I've received excellent ratings from my students and could produce a strong letter of recommendation from my supervisor). Are those things any good?

Also, if it wasn't clear before, I'm not applying for this application season. I'm applying for the next one, hoping to enter a program in Fall 2014. I will have taken at least two graduate-level Greek courses and completed third- and fourth-semester Latin at my current university before I apply (all with As, I assume).

[Conscia Fati]

Salve Petros, I missed that you are applying next year. I think that having another year of the languages under your belt will certainly help. I don't think you're crazy, and I think that you have a shot. I would apply widely; you never know which program will let you in. I suggest looking at UVM, CU Boulder, Univ. of Kansas, WUSTL, and Notre Dame in addition to the two you mentioned above. Also, French and Italian are of course valuable, and I'd also recommend familiarizing yourself with German if you have the time. Looking at the reading lists for these programs might be a good idea too -- get a head start! Teaching experience and presentations can only help. As a non-classics major, your personal statement will be very important; you need to have a really tight, well-researched writing sample. The more letters you have from classicists, the better.

[ἠφανισμένος]

Andromache, thanks. That's good to hear. Notre Dame is already on my list, and I'll have to check out Kansas and CU Boulder. I believe UVM and WUSTL require more classics coursework than I'll be able to complete by the time I apply. Yeah, German is on my list; if possible, I'll start it next year. I've already familiarized myself with the reading lists for a wide variety of PhD and MA programs and have a good idea of my weak spots. Of course you're right about the SOP and writing sample. I'll be putting a lot of time into those.

Do you (or anyone else) have an opinion about the U of Toronto medieval Latin exam? Is it recognized outside of medieval studies programs?

[rkg2012]

I would add Arizona to Andromache's list, since I know it's funded and they have a pretty good record at getting MAs into PhD programs. Vanderbilt also has a good funded program, but it's very competitive to get into.

Not every university asks for a 'works read' list, but you could attach something like that as an addendum to your CV. Honestly, modern languages are really just icing on the cake. Getting more formal Latin under your belt is vastly more important than starting German. I got into great programs with no real formal German or French (and zero Italian). If you want to start German on your own, I used Coles & Dodd, "Reading German," which was pretty good. If you work through that on your own, you can stick "intermediate reading ability" on your CV with no problem.

Sadly, I know nothing about the Latin exam, but I can't imagine it would hurt.

[ἠφανισμένος]

rkg2012, thanks for the input. I'm aware of Arizona and Vanderbilt. I was thinking of applying to Vanderbilt, but Arizona explicitly requires "a four-year B.A. in classics," which I don't have.

Right, Latin is much more important than German and I'm taking steps to get graded Latin credit on my transcript. By the time I apply I'll have taken third- and fourth-semester Latin, in addition to reading some Cicero, Caesar, and other authors on my own. Hopefully my graduate courses in Greek will indicate my capacity for advanced work in the languages.

As for the list of works read, most programs I'm looking at request one, so I've been planning to do that.

[rkg2012]

Arizona explicitly requires "a four-year B.A. in classics," which I don't have.

I've always had the impression that such strict guidelines were to deter the faint of heart. You won't be so far behind someone with such a degree by the time you apply. In fact, you'll be at a higher Greek level, which should work to your advantage and I don't remember Arizona having super high language requirements, but then again, I'm an archaeologist. Have you had any history/archaeology/civ courses? Or did any of your philosophy classes deal with ancient philosophers?

If you're worried about whether you will be able to come close enough to meeting requirements, you can contact any of the schools and talk to someone about it. If you do it this cycle, then by the time you apply, they won't even remember that you thought your application would be weak. Just sell yourself in the personal statement when the time comes.

[ἠφανισμένος]

Rkg, that's good to know about the stated guidelines. I'll keep that in mind. Unfortunately I haven't had any non-language classics courses besides my philosophy ones, which sometimes addressed ancient philosophy. History of Philosophy 1 did, of course, and we read some Plato and Aristotle in translation for my ethics class; would that be worth something to an adcom? (Also, for the English major, I took World Lit 1, which contained some Greek and Roman literature in translation.)