Good programs for pregnant women/mothers

[gilmoregirl1010]

Hi everyone,

I am currently in a terminal Master's program, looking to go on to a PhD in Sociology. I've been married for a few years, and my husband and I are trying to figure out the best timeline for us to have kids while I'm in school. My plan right now is to try to get pregnant (my own reproductive system willing) while I'm working on my dissertation, which seems to be the sweet spot for me as far as age and responsibilities are concerned. However, I know that not all departments take kindly to women with plans for motherhood. The department I'm currently in has spoiled me, since they are incredibly accepting of pregnant grad students and work very hard to accomodate women who have babies so that they can still be successful in the program. However, it's not a very highly ranked department, and so I'm looking to apply to other, more prestigious schools as well.

I had a 3.89 undergrad GPA, currently. 4.0 grad GPA, 1360 on my GREs, and substantial research experience, so I think I'm qualified to apply to some top-tier schools, but it is very important to me that I end up in a place that won't treat me like a pariah if I try and balance my personal and work life while in grad school. My timeline itself is not the question here, but rather if there are any programs you know of that would be willing to accomodate it? Like I said, I know they exist since I'm in one right now, but I was hoping to see if any other Sociology grad students were in programs that were hospitable and accomodating to young mothers. This isn't the kind of thing that programs tend to advertise on their websites, so I figured I'd check here instead

(If it helps, my main research interests are sex/gender and religion.)

[AaronM]

I'm sort of in the same boat, my wife and I had a baby a few months back. Bottom line is that having kids makes life harder in grad school than it would be otherwise. My advisor (who had a kid before grad school) said the main difficulty is feeling alienated from cohort members who are going out to party together while he wanted to go home and be with his kids. That being said, I've also talked to a prof at a top-5 who took motherhood breaks during grad school and while trying to get tenure and she said that if you are going to have kids, its a whole lot easier to do it during grad school than while trying to get tenure, so if your going to start a family, grad school is the best time to do it. As for family-friendly programs, I know UT-Austin explicitly mentions on their FAQ page that they are a family friendly program and they have many faculty and grad students with families and children.

[gilmoregirl1010]

I'm sort of in the same boat, my wife and I had a baby a few months back. Bottom line is that having kids makes life harder in grad school than it would be otherwise. My advisor (who had a kid before grad school) said the main difficulty is feeling alienated from cohort members who are going out to party together while he wanted to go home and be with his kids. That being said, I've also talked to a prof at a top-5 who took motherhood breaks during grad school and while trying to get tenure and she said that if you are going to have kids, its a whole lot easier to do it during grad school than while trying to get tenure, so if your going to start a family, grad school is the best time to do it. As for family-friendly programs, I know UT-Austin explicitly mentions on their FAQ page that they are a family friendly program and they have many faculty and grad students with families and children.

I've heard the same about feeling alienated from your cohort, but that's something I'm prepared to deal with, especially if I am able to do most of my grad work before I have a baby. But I've talked to my advisor, and my husband (who is planning on doing a LOT of the parenting, maybe even being a SAHD if we can ever afford it), and we're pretty sure that late in the PhD will be best for us (again, assuming my reproductive system cooperates! ) Thanks for the suggestion on UT Austin, I hadn't considered them before, but their program does seem like a good fit for me!

[sociologyplease]

One suggestion would be trying to find programs with paid maternity/paternity leave for graduate students, which would indicate a very friendly structural arrangement for students (and allow you to not be in jeopardy of losing a stipend if you took time off and couldn't TA or RA or something).

[mbrown0315]

I just came across Princeton University's "Family Focused Initiatives": http://www.princeton.edu/gradschool/studentlife/childcare/

I haven't done a whole lot of research into this. Still, based on the research I have done, I think Princeton is unusually generous in this regard.

I'm engaged and will be married by the time I start graduate school. Hopefully I'll be a father by the time I'm halfway through my doctoral education, so this is definitely on my radar. My plan is to find out which schools want me and then count this issue among the medley of factors I'll need to consider when making a decision. I am also applying to (very many) top schools, and I get the impression that most of the very good (top 20) schools have active graduate student unions and enough endowment money to provide amenities such as subsidized daycare.

[TakeruK]

I'm just starting a PhD program but I have a 2 year Masters program completed (in Canada). My wife and I are planning to start trying to have a baby at the end of my 2nd year (when all courses are completed, quals done, and hopefully have a firm grasp of what my PhD dissertation will be). One of the reasons we chose this school for my PhD was its good support system for parents. There is a stipend boost for childcare and I talked to some students who are also currently parents. I was disappointed to hear about the very short maternity/paternity leave time for students in the US though! Being male is definitely an advantage here since I have no idea how a new mother would be expected to give birth and return to work/school in only 12 weeks (students at most schools tend to get the minimum maternity/paternity leave time by law). In Canada, employers are obligated to give 37 weeks for paternity leave (without pay but you'd qualify for Employment Insurance benefits) and an additional 15 weeks if you are the mother (for a total of 1 year). Employers are required to take the new parent back to their old job, with the same benefits and pay as if they had never left. At the grad school level, this translates to having a full year leave-of-absence without any academic repercussions and that year off doesn't count against eligibility for funding etc. Some schools even offer awards to supplement any fellowships that may be put "on hold" during the leave of absence. So perhaps you could consider some PhD schools north of the border too, just saying!

[gilmoregirl1010]

Thank you all very much! These are all excellent suggestions, I'll definitely look into them, especially Canada. Do you know if a PhD from Canada is accepted in US institutions? I know that at least for the UK, the structure of their PhD is so much different than here that people who go to the UK for grad school often times have trouble finding jobs in the US. So that would be something I'd have to consider, too.

[Willows]

I have a small (under 5) child and am planning another while writing my dissertation. I think many women accepted to programs are in their mid-to-late 20s, so it is probably a relatively common occurrence to have women become pregnant while they are spending 5-7 years in a program.

[jacib]

One of our professors (a new mother and a recent PhD) also told us that the best time to have children was in graduate school. I'm not sure how that would work out for me (if I did, it'd probably be almost at the end of my program).

Three women in my program are pregnant or recently gave birth. Another entered the program with two children. I talked with one of them for this thread and I think they're all generally happy with how my program has treated them, the support they've gotten from the department, and all feel this was the right time at the right school, etc. even though this university is probably in the stingier half of the top twenty-five when it comes to OB/GYN insurance coverage (no doula coverage for example) and childcare (weak, to say the least). If you were to look at schools based only on the paper benefits, my school would probably be one that's crossed off (it probably also has a higher proportion of white men than most sociology departments). Nevertheless, my colleague seemed confident that childcare stuff alone wouldn't be sufficent reason not to apply here.

This is obviously your decision, and a very personal one, but one thing you could do is, at school's you're not sure about (not the Princetons or the UT-Austins), ask the DGS* if they could put you in contact with any students with children so you could get the inside scoop, or, wait until after you're accepted places and deal with the issue around visiting day by actually talking to the graduate students (assuming you manage multiple offers--this strategy would mean applying more broadly). I remember on my visiting day, there was a woman with a baby in tow--she definitely wanted everyone to know that she was part of a package deal; she told me explicitly she wanted to see how all the professors would react to her bringing a child with her to meetings. There is probably a difference with how school are on paper, and how individual programs are in reality. While my school is stingy, I think my program is understanding, and I'd bet there are at least one or two places that are the reverse.

Also, unrelatedly, @mbrown, private top twenty schools do not have graduate student unions to the best of my knowledge. There have been multiple attempts (at Yale, NYU, Penn, Brown, etc.) but they've failed in part because a 2004 NLRB ruling (which came after a successful 2000 ruling; the party in charge changed, the NLRB changed). Cornell (and one other place, I think) had a pre-2004 unionization vote that met a well-organized, student initiated anti-union campaign, and NYU and Yale's unionization attempts met heavy resistance from the administration (NYU, which had to recognize it's union in 2002 and got to unrecognize it in or around 2004, I think. I believe it also changed the way it pays its TAs so they wouldn't be able to form an effective grad student union; they get paid the same as the adjuncts, if I remember correctly). However, in the past decade, I believe most of the unions demands (and more) have been given to elite private university TA's. EDIT: Besides collective bargaining rights, of course.

*Actually, maybe this is something that contacting a random graduate student might be good for, rather than the DGS. Whoever you'd feel more comfortable asking. I'd expect most schools have at least one or two students who've had children in graduate school. Just write a "Hey, I know this is random but I'm thinking of applying--could you put me in touch with one or two of the graduate students in the department with kids? k thx."

Edited October 17, 2012 by jacib

[TakeruK]

Thank you all very much! These are all excellent suggestions, I'll definitely look into them, especially Canada. Do you know if a PhD from Canada is accepted in US institutions? I know that at least for the UK, the structure of their PhD is so much different than here that people who go to the UK for grad school often times have trouble finding jobs in the US. So that would be something I'd have to consider, too.

As far as I know, while the structure of a Canadian PhD and US PhD programs are slightly different -- in Canada, you do a Masters first (2 years) then reapply (to the same or different school) for a PhD program (3-4 years), with some schools offering Masters students the option to change to a PhD program after 1 year of Masters (upon approval from department). But in the end, it's a 5-6 year program, like in the US. I know many students with Canadian PhDs that go to the US for post-docs. I've also heard that UK and European PhDs sometimes have problems getting positions in North America (Canada included) because their PhD program is only ~3 years after undergrad, which doesn't leave much time for developing a strong publication history (important in my field for post-docs). So, the advice I got when I was considering UK/Euro schools was that I should plan to do at least 1 post-doc over there, bringing my total post-undergrad experience to ~5-6 years before returning to North America. But I ended up not applying over there since funding for non-EU citizens is very sparse!!

As for unions -- all major Canadian universities are now unionized. There is some anti-union sentiment amongst student groups at all schools, but it's a lot harder to de-unionize in Canada than it is to unionize. I think graduate students are easily taken advantage of, especially in our joint role as student and employer, and we need to unionize to protect our rights, but not everyone agrees!

Anyways, the reason I brought it up is that some Canadian schools have very strong Collective Agreements. For example, you can get sick leave WITH PAY for TA duties, and you are not responsible for finding a replacement -- you just inform your employer that you are home sick today and it's their job to find a replacement (who will get paid additional hours, so it's not a bad thing). However, usually graduate students do find their own replacement because we generally care about delivering quality education to the students! It's just a good right to have, like any other worker, to not be penalized for illness. At some schools, you can even get sick leave if a family member (e.g. a child or spouse) is ill and you need to stay home to take care of them! Usually this type of leave is without pay though, but if you trade shifts with another TA then you don't lose funding.

Definitely try to talk to students who are in similar situations as you when visiting schools (or even before applying). When I was visiting schools, I made it clear that the school choice is an equal decision between me and my wife so that I was basing my decision on more than just academic value of the program. For one school (Cornell), my wife's schedule allowed her to join me and they were very accommodating to allow her to be part of the visit as well (i.e. she joined in the social events and meals but there was no reason for her to meet with the profs of course). I don't know if it was coincidence or careful planning, but at most schools I visited, I was paired up with a student host who was also married (to a spouse who wasn't a student). So it was a good way for us to get a sense of what our new lives could be like. These people got me in touch with students who were parents too.

[jacib]

Saw this on Facebook: Male academics explaining things to female graduate students.

http://mansplained.tumblr.com/, especially this one: http://mansplained.tumblr.com/post/33844650167/dont-get-pregnant

[intirb]

To the OP,

I would apply to the programs you're most interested in professionally, but during interviews make sure to ask about maternity leave and childcare policies. Most top-tier schools are really doing their best to support women in your situation, but as I understand it the main problem (if a problem arises) would probably be with your advisor. I'm not really sure I have good advice for how to choose an advisor that will be understanding or how to find out if they will be accommodating, but it would probably help to choose advisors with children or with graduate students with children. Right now I'm in a lab where one of the grad students has a kid and sometimes skypes into lab meetings.

If you're nervous about asking about these policies during interviews (worried about how it might reflect), you could seek out an the ombuds office at the university while you're there. These are people who will explain school policies in confidence and at least at MIT they're perfectly happy to talk to prospective students. There might also be some kind of university office specifically geared towards families or work-life balance with useful information about school policies.

Good luck!

[faculty]

I agree with the above posters that recommend that you apply to the schools that are the best fit for you professionally and then figure out which of those - during visits, informal conversations, benefit explanations, etc. - works well for your family plans.

Anita Harker Armstrong's work finds that policies are nice, but mentors and colleagues in programs who are supportive are most important. Interestingly based on an above post, she uses a comparison of Canadian and American universities to support that argument.

[gilmoregirl1010]

Ah, thank you so much! Sorry I'm just responding (the past week has been very busy), but I really appreciate your input!

That mansplaining thing was disheartening though. Ugh, would it be too much to ask that academia be more progressive than that?

[mbrown0315]

Saw this on Facebook: Male academics explaining things to female graduate students.

http://mansplained.tumblr.com/, especially this one: http://mansplained.t...nt-get-pregnant

I don't want to incite a flame war, but I'd like to know (especially from the women here) if anyone thinks there might be something to the argument that children make pursuing a career harder for women simply because women are drawn more to childcare than men are. If I'm an employer, is it reasonable for me to assume that a woman who gets pregnant will be less attentive to her work because of childcare responsibilities? This question is especially relevant to academia, where work never really ends. The best academics are almost always researching, writing, teaching, or grading.

[amlobo]

I don't particularly think it's reasonable to "assume" anything, especially with women who are in demanding careers like academia. I am currently an attorney, and the same type of stigma exists for female attorneys, who are not "expected" to have children until their careers are firmly established because "the best attorneys" are also working 24/7. However, I think highly educated women, especially, are much more likely to be able to balance their responsibilities and to have a partner with whom they share relatively equal responsibility for parenting. Even incredibly accomplished female academics have children, and I don't think it is fair to assume that their work suffers much more than that of male academics who have children. Whether male or female, a person's parenting approach is just that: personal. So, I don't think you can assume anything simply because a parent is female versus male.

That said, there are obviously some women who choose to or are forced to take a larger role in the parenting, and I think it's naive to imply that it won't affect some women's work. I am a woman, and I will probably have children some day. I like to think that my children will be "planned," that I will juggle my responsibilities accordingly, and that it won't have any impact on my career. But, really, no one knows what will happen until you are in the situation. So, if even *I* can't predict the effect of motherhood on my career, how can a prospective employer feign to do the same?

Just my opinion. I'm interested to hear what others think... and hope no one attacks you for posing a valid query.

[gilmoregirl1010]

I don't want to incite a flame war, but I'd like to know (especially from the women here) if anyone thinks there might be something to the argument that children make pursuing a career harder for women simply because women are drawn more to childcare than men are. If I'm an employer, is it reasonable for me to assume that a woman who gets pregnant will be less attentive to her work because of childcare responsibilities? This question is especially relevant to academia, where work never really ends. The best academics are almost always researching, writing, teaching, or grading.

Well, as far as I'm concerned, my husband plans on doing almost all of the childcare work, and would prefer to be a stay-at-home Dad if we can swing it financially. So I know it would be incredibly frustrating for me to be discriminated against by faculty members who assume I have a different work/home arrangement than I do based on gender stereotypes, rather than judging my case individually and going from there. If my work actually does end up suffering after I have kids, then that's one thing, but to assume that that's going to happen up front and discriminate against me accordingly seems incredibly unfair, especially since men generally don't experience similar discrimination when they become fathers . I'm sure many women would agree with me.

[TakeruK]

If I'm an employer, is it reasonable for me to assume that a woman who gets pregnant will be less attentive to her work because of childcare responsibilities? This question is especially relevant to academia, where work never really ends. The best academics are almost always researching, writing, teaching, or grading.

I'm not a woman but I don't think that is reasonable to assume that only female workers will be "less attentive" because they have children (and that male workers won't be affected the same way by their children). In fact, in Canada (and probably other places), it's illegal for employers to discriminate based on family status (i.e. martial status, whether or not you have children etc. -- you can't even ask these questions in a job interview). For example, an employer cannot choose to hire/promote someone who isn't a parent over someone who is when faced with two equal candidates. In addition, things like maternity leave, parental leave, sick leave for children are within an employee's rights (depending on the local Employment Act and any employment agreements) and an employee should not be punished for taking advantage of such rights (e.g. someone who takes allowed time off should be treated as having as good "attendance" as someone who didn't take any sick days). But stuff like this is usually hard to prove.

I brought up this example because it ties in with your other point, i.e. "academia [is] where work never really ends". While that may be true, it doesn't mean that an employee in academia is expected to be constantly working too! An employee in academia should have the same rights as an employee in other jobs. So, a grad student who takes a leave of absence should not be academically penalized on their return. An assistant professor who takes maternity or parental leave should not be disadvantaged when they are reviewed for tenure.

[intirb]

If my work actually does end up suffering after I have kids, then that's one thing, but to assume that that's going to happen up front and discriminate against me accordingly seems incredibly unfair, especially since men generally don't experience similar discrimination when they become fathers.

This. Often times, stereotypes do have some grain of truth to them. The problem arises when you generalize to the point of punishing (or favoring) people just because they belong to some group, regardless of their actual qualities and/or circumstances.

[Willows]

I find it disheartening that sociologists are potentially propagating the ideas that women are bound to their children more so than men. Fortunately, I have much of my undergrad and current research to substantiate that I can, in fact, balance research and academics with a child. I believe Giddens has a lot to say about stereotypes from a sociological perspective. Women can't be kept at home anymore so there's a displacement for control now: to maintain that women are less productive in the workplace than men because they have to care for children. Certainly, the patriarchy is alive and well -- rampant within institutions, including academia, so I expect (begrudgingly) to hear asinine remarks about my womb and "reproductive rights."

[faculty]

For budding sociologists, the ASA provides all kinds of professional research briefs that might be of interest: http://asanet.org/research/briefs_and_articles.cfm

Particularly pertinent here: http://asanet.org/documents/research/docs/Mothers_Ideal_Acad_Careers_2012.pdf