Psychology vs Linguistics

[liszt85]

I have applied to both these departments. I have one offer from a Dept of Linguistics and two *possible* offers that might come my way from Depts of Psychology. Some people advise me that I should pick the Dept of Psychology offer since my research interest is a highly interdisciplinary one (music cognition with some interest in language issues also) and it wouldn't matter which dept I do it in, so what remains would be to check what PhD would offer me a wider range of options when its time for me to look for a job. People also say that Psychology professors are paid a little more and more grants probably are secured by Depts of Psychology. Is this true? Does this advice make sense? I frankly don't have a preference as I wouldn't mind teaching and working in a Linguistics or Psychology Dept later on. So what other factors do you think I must take into consideration while choosing where to go given that interests match well, one with a linguistics dept at Northwestern, and one with a Psychology Dept, say at Ohio State University or McMaster University?

Also based on reputation alone, which would you choose, OSU or McMaster (both Psychology)? Excellent researchers are present at all these three places and I find this decision a really hard one to make and I would find it especially hard to turn down an offer from Northwestern Linguistics because the people there really seem to be eager to have me there and we've exchanged around 20 emails (with professors from 3 different departments who I might wish to work with). One major factor would be the cost of living and the ability to support my spouse on the stipend. So that way OSU and McMaster might actually turn out to be better in terms of expenses.. I'm very confused Thoughts on the matter welcome..

[psycholinguist]

I wish I could offer more help than I can, but I'm in a similar position myself.

Professors have told me, however, that there would be more jobs in psychology than linguistics. Given your interests, I would probably favour psychology; it sounds as if you'd be more unhappy shutting out music-cognition than a few language-related topics. That said, I understand the appeal of linguistics on its own as well, and Northwestern's linguistics program is quite esteemed.

You may well have thought of this already, but keep in mind that the United States and Canada have different currencies, so the exchange-rates with the rupee could be pretty far apart. That could make a major difference to the amount of money that you will have.

(I don't know anything about OSU, but would you be hoping to work with Laurel Trainor at McMaster? I hear that although her own research is groundbreaking, she has a fairly high number of grad-students. Also, her research is much more focused on the neurological than the behavioral.)

[liszt85]

I wish I could offer more help than I can, but I'm in a similar position myself.

Professors have told me, however, that there would be more jobs in psychology than linguistics. Given your interests, I would probably favour psychology; it sounds as if you'd be more unhappy shutting out music-cognition than a few language-related topics. That said, I understand the appeal of linguistics on its own as well, and Northwestern's linguistics program is quite esteemed.

You may well have thought of this already, but keep in mind that the United States and Canada have different currencies, so the exchange-rates with the rupee could be pretty far apart. That could make a major difference to the amount of money that you will have.

(I don't know anything about OSU, but would you be hoping to work with Laurel Trainor at McMaster? I hear that although her own research is groundbreaking, she has a fairly high number of grad-students. Also, her research is much more focused on the neurological than the behavioral.)

Yes, Prof Trainor wrote to me saying that she'd like to have me join her lab and that she'd recommend my name for admission. That was about 3-4 weeks ago and I'm getting quite nervous now. I hope it does translate into an official offer. I don't mind if majority of my work is to be neurological as long as I get trained well enough through coursework in research methods, that I can conduct a behavioral study if I so wish later on. The thing is she wants me to join the lab because I'm from a physics background and there are some sophisticated signal processing tasks to be done in the lab and my knowledge and experience with acoustics and certain techniques (like beamforming) might come in handy because certain such new techniques have been introduced in the lab. So she probably was looking for somebody with a strong quantitative background. Now, while I wouldn't mind devoting some time to all of that, I do not want to be forced to do just some signal processing tasks! I however do think she'd give me enough freedom to choose what to work on towards my PhD.

About the money, Hamilton is not an expensive place to live in and I hope to get around $15,000 CDN pa. I however do not know if that will be sufficient to support two people in Hamilton. Some people say it is. Prof Trainor also had asked me to let her know if I had any other financial constraint and I did tell her about my plan to bring along my spouse and hence would need some additional support. I don't know if she would be able to give me some extra cash in addition to what the dept can offer.

You are absolutely right about the charm of linguistics. The reason why Northwestern looks so attractive to me is the wide range of options they've put in front of me. They've put me in touch with professors from Physics, Music, Speech and Communication Disorders, Cognitive Science departments, all of whom have shown active interest in working with me. There is this music, language and communication specialization track which I intend to do under the complex systems institute http://www.tgs.northwestern.edu/academi ... unication/ and this would offer me the chance to do music cognition and analysis of music using concepts from physics (fractals, multifractals, scaling laws, etc) which I really enjoy doing (I've already done some relevant research in this area). I would however also be expected to work in semantics/pragmatics. It would be really difficult for me to reject their offer but like you said, that advice about more jobs in Psychology has been playing at the back of my head and I just can't ignore it Also, the NU stipend (1st year fellowship) is around $1500 after taxes (20.5K before taxes per year including summer funding). In Chicago, that's not a safe amount for a couple to live on. I don't know if I can get some additional support from some professor's grant in the summer (in addition to the guaranteed summer support they've offered).

Now you see why this decision is going to be super tough for me. :| Anybody with more thoughts on the matter? Psycholinguist and I would really love to hear what you all think about the situation. When its no longer an issue with research fit, what factors must I give importance to while making a choice? For me, my future spouse's preference to live in Hamilton, Canada than Chicago, USA is definitely one but more importantly, I need to know about future prospects attached to each of these PhD's (PhD in Linguistics, Northwestern vs PhD in Psychology, McMaster or Ohio State University (lesser research interest fit)).

[psycholinguist]

At a guess, $15,000 Canadian per year in Hamilton is probably doable, even with two people. It's certainly bound to be cheaper than Toronto, and I hear that a single student can do just fine on $15,000 there. And I doubt Laurel Trainor or anyone would force you to do signal-processing for the entire duration of your Ph.D.! I mean, what kind of degree would that be?

That said, Northwestern sounds promising as well. That's a tough call. Wait for the final decisions to come in, see if McMaster can find a bit more money for you, then draw up a realistic budget for the year for all three options (stipend versus average rent in each place, furnishings, electricity/Internet bills, food and medications, transportation, travel, any visa processing fees, and any visa costs). It's not such a bad thing to have a decision come down to funding if that's what's going to make the decision easy.

[liszt85]

It's not such a bad thing to have a decision come down to funding if that's what's going to make the decision easy.

I just hope I make the right decision for both me and my future wife. I'm glad I'm in a position where I get to choose esp since this has been a tough year on everybody. Btw, do you have a decision yet from McGill? After emails that I sent to Caroline Palmer and Daniel Levitin, they let me know that my somewhat non-stellar grades were problematic in getting funds, so its most likely a rejection. Else, Daniel Levitin's lab would have been a top choice as well. The guy has done pretty much everything I wanted to do. I spent a good share of my undergraduate days a thousand miles away from university, singing in rock bands in Mumbai. I wanted to drop out and go do music. Daniel Levitin has done all of that and would have been nice to work under him, getting a glimpse into his life experiences Anyway, that's no longer a possibility. Good luck with your McGill decision, its a great place.

[flyinglion]

Well, I dont know linguistics, but I know a little of the OSU psychology (I applied to them, and got accepted...I also had many email correspondence with potential advisor, maybe for more than one year....) Here is what I know: there are several programs in OSU psych, and each program is kind of "independent", that they have different required courses etc. As a whole, the OSU psych is OK, I think you are admitted to its cognitive program? Maybe u'd like to contact some current students there and get some info...And it is really important to know that there are also faculty members doing sth that you are also interested in. I am not quite sure, but I heard that a prof named John Opfer had once done sth about music with one of his former student.

And I totally understand how hard it is to say sorry to a prof that is very eager in your application and you have a lot of correspondence with.. we are in the same boat.. I felt terrible when I think of turning down the OSU offer, and I felt upset to think about saying sorry to the potential advisor, whose research I've followed for more than one year...

[liszt85]

Hmm thanks for the bit of info about OSU. Do you know the present level of support that is offered to grad students in the Psychology Dept at OSU? What is the stipend offered (departmental fellowship)?

I do know that there is a very good researcher, David Huron, in the Dept of Music who I've been in touch with. Similarly at Northwestern there's Ric Ashley in the Dept of Music. Both are excellent researchers in the field of music cognition and if the Psychology Dept agrees to having them on my committee, I could always get to work on music. So as it stands, I will have plenty of opportunity to do work that I'd love at all these three places. Since this is a new field to me, I really don't have strong preferences (eg: neurological vs behavioral approaches, anything would do as long as I get to study a problem that I seriously want to study and solve). Again the thing with OSU is that I was rejected by the grad school at the first instance! These two very nice profs contacted me and told me that they were very interested in my application and they interviewed me via skype and then nominated me for some funds (3 year dept fellowship) and one of them committed to funding me for 2 years from his research grants to make it 5 years of funding. So this is turning out to be a really tough call for me to make as I've been in touch with all these people for 4-5 months now and I pretty much know I'll have fun regardless of which school I'll go to because my interests are broad. In a way I'm glad now that I don't have too many acceptances. I've always had issues with making decisions I can't even choose a goddamn shirt when I go shopping for clothes, I usually tell the person accompanying me to pick but I can't do that with a grad school decision and its especially tough when people have put in so much effort to get me funds because my screwed up grades couldn't win me funds at the first instance :|

[flyinglion]

Hmm thanks for the bit of info about OSU. Do you know the present level of support that is offered to grad students in the Psychology Dept at OSU? What is the stipend offered (departmental fellowship)?

well, I dont know now...the result, they say, will be annouced on March 9..oh it is today...guess I will know in a day or two..

I am with you! I mean hesitating towards choices... and I felt so bad when I told the Berkeley prof that I wont go there after he telling me he has found some funding for me....and I am still lingering along the rest choices! after I received the folder from school A, I love the folder so much that I feel wanna writing to them and tell I will go there immediately! but minates later, when I received an email from school B and discovered many oppotunities and resources there, I am towards it; after that, thinking of the smart & nice profs and the exciting researches I could do at school C..I feel depressed...that I am not able to stop changing my mind!

[liszt85]

well, I dont know now...the result, they say, will be annouced on March 9..oh it is today...guess I will know in a day or two..

They said that my funding would be decided on the 10th of March. If you come to know of the stipend before I do, do let me know. Am quite anxious to know and the earlier I know, the earlier I can start calculating if OSU would be better for me financially. Btw just out of curiosity, are you from India? Also, did you reject an offer from the Dept of Psychology at Berkeley?! Wow..

[flyinglion]

I'll let u know when I know it..

no..I am not from India.. I'm from China...

well, it takes pains to decline berkeley...but I am glad I went through and got a warm respond....

[psycholinguist]

I just hope I make the right decision for both me and my future wife. I'm glad I'm in a position where I get to choose esp since this has been a tough year on everybody. Btw, do you have a decision yet from McGill? After emails that I sent to Caroline Palmer and Daniel Levitin, they let me know that my somewhat non-stellar grades were problematic in getting funds, so its most likely a rejection. Else, Daniel Levitin's lab would have been a top choice as well. The guy has done pretty much everything I wanted to do. I spent a good share of my undergraduate days a thousand miles away from university, singing in rock bands in Mumbai. I wanted to drop out and go do music. Daniel Levitin has done all of that and would have been nice to work under him, getting a glimpse into his life experiences Anyway, that's no longer a possibility. Good luck with your McGill decision, its a great place.

Thanks for your kind words. Have to say that I'm not really aiming for McGill psychology anymore, though. At one point I was (especially after reading This Is Your Brain on Music), but I came to realise that my interest in music-cognition is probably better-suited to side-projects than to a specialisation for me. Kristine Onishi sent me an email asking if I wanted to work under her and do language-acquistion, but I have very little interest in research in that area, so I politely turned her down. Somewhat later, Dr. Palmer emailed me saying that she'd be happy to co-supervise projects of mine with a linguistics professor, but she hadn't counted on my being rejected from their linguistics department. I emailed her back and said that it wasn't a big deal, since I have other options. No official decision yet from them, though.

[liszt85]

One more question that comes to mind is this: I will have a MSc in Physics and a PhD in Linguistics (or Psychology) 6 years from now. Would my lack of undergraduate background in linguistics/psychology play a detrimental role when it comes to determining if I get a tenure track job later on? Would this kind of an academic background be marketable? I know that some interdisciplinary research centers at universities like Northwestern might be interested in candidates with diverse academic backgrounds, and my guess is that more traditional departments wouldn't appreciate this kind of an academic history. Do I understand right?

[liszt85]

Research interest fit well at both places, which one would you opt for:

1) OSU Dept of Psychology OR 2) Northwestern Dept of Linguistics and why?

[hitdoggie]

I have had an interest in this field, especially given my background. I also looked at potentially contacting McGill, OSU and Stanford. A lot of these programs want you to be proficient with music theory, so if you are not you might want to start checking that out. Just a heads up- Harvard has taken a couple grad students who are looking at music cognition. It is a niche field and I was told by people to look at Europe for this kind of research.

Job prospects scared me.

[liszt85]

I have had an interest in this field, especially given my background. I also looked at potentially contacting McGill, OSU and Stanford. A lot of these programs want you to be proficient with music theory, so if you are not you might want to start checking that out. Just a heads up- Harvard has taken a couple grad students who are looking at music cognition. It is a niche field and I was told by people to look at Europe for this kind of research.

Job prospects scared me.

I applied to McGill too but got rejected (by both Caroline Palmer and Daniel Levitin). Prof Laurel Trainor at McMaster recommended me for admission but their funding situation this year was esp bad and they couldn't accommodate me. Same with UCSD. I'm with you about the job prospects. A noted researcher in the field told me that there arises maybe ONE tenure track position all around the world in this field every year. That is scary. Based on everybody's advice, I have now decided to do my PhD in a more traditional subfield of Psychology, namely, human memory, attention, learning. I then intend to carry out research in music cognition through one or two post docs in Europe. As you rightly pointed out, a lot of work is coming up in Europe. I should be good to go by the end of my PhD and they will be ready by then with some funding hopefully Also, I might get to work with Prof David Huron on a few projects in music cognition alongside my main line of work as my advisor has told me that he's fine with that. So I hope I'll be ready for music cognition work at the end of five years, but at the same time, an employable candidate for any tenure track position that might arise in a Dept of Psychology. I hope this is a realistic goal.

[liszt85]

Just a heads up- Harvard has taken a couple grad students who are looking at music cognition.

[hitdoggie]

I stumbled across the Harvard info by investigating their Dev. Dept and saw a couple students were focusing their studies on music/cognition/dev. I share your frustration with job prospects. I used to be a professional musician, and I totally fell in love with Levitin, Huron, and Mithen's work. However, I was disappointed when I began to investigate the work of my new "heros" only to see they were the only few people in the field. I also think Levitin, who has done some notable work, brings a certain degree of star power to McGill...I don't think I'd be able to bring that to a job interview after grad school! There is also the issue of gaining grant money for Universities in order to get tenure- which seems a dubious task in the "publish or perish" mentality of your early years as a professor.

I hope to find ways to incorporate music into my future research, but even if that never happens I still get a tremendous amount of joy from my instruments, record collection and friends/bandmates-enough so that I can deal with finding research topics that don't peak the same level of interest.

* I also share a great deal of frustration in regards to the process of grad school/grants/publishing almost shunning, or at the very least stiffening, potential grad students with creative research ideas. Who knows...if you get tenure someday anything is fair game with your research?

I applied to McGill too but got rejected (by both Caroline Palmer and Daniel Levitin). Prof Laurel Trainor at McMaster recommended me for admission but their funding situation this year was esp bad and they couldn't accommodate me. Same with UCSD. I'm with you about the job prospects. A noted researcher in the field told me that there arises maybe ONE tenure track position all around the world in this field every year. That is scary. Based on everybody's advice, I have now decided to do my PhD in a more traditional subfield of Psychology, namely, human memory, attention, learning. I then intend to carry out research in music cognition through one or two post docs in Europe. As you rightly pointed out, a lot of work is coming up in Europe. I should be good to go by the end of my PhD and they will be ready by then with some funding hopefully Also, I might get to work with Prof David Huron on a few projects in music cognition alongside my main line of work as my advisor has told me that he's fine with that. So I hope I'll be ready for music cognition work at the end of five years, but at the same time, an employable candidate for any tenure track position that might arise in a Dept of Psychology. I hope this is a realistic goal.