Plan B?

[lesage13]

The current application season has been very disappointing for me so far, verging on disastrous (0/0/7 of 11--with the remaining schools all in the top 15). So, now I'm finding myself staring down the likely possibility of not getting in anywhere at all (I'd be happy to just get onto a waitlist at this point), and wondering just what the hell am I going to do for the next year, and y'know, the rest of my life. And considering how this season has gone, I'm beginning to wonder whether I should even bother wasting my money next year. In short, I'm starting to seriously consider Plan Bs (and Cs, and Ds...). Thus far, the only thing that has suggested itself is law school, a prospect I'm not so thrilled about. I will have my MA from a relatively unknown Canadian school shortly, but I doubt that I can realistically do anything with that (despite some anecdotal evidence to the contrary). Anyone else in the same boat? Thoughts and suggestions are extremely welcome. FWIW, Plan 'Zed' involves culinary school and a lot of dishwashing.

Edited February 24, 2013 by lesage13

[PhilosophyHopeful2013]

DO NOT go to law school.  This is coming from a law school graduate.  There are probably 50 reasons I could give you to not go.

[lesage13]

DO NOT go to law school. This is coming from a law school graduate. There are probably 50 reasons I could give you to not go.

My gut feeling is that you're right, but could you elaborate on this anyways? I understand that the American legal job market is pretty bad right now, but I've been told that the Canadian one is better. I'm hesitating to rule it out is because (1) it is fairly congruous with the skill set I got from (almost) two degrees in philosophy, and (2) a legal education can sometimes give one the platform from which to do some good in the world, which admittedly sounds naive.

[youdontknowme]

Why no law school?  I'm in a similar situation as lesage13 above, and I'm considering law school.

 

I've hunted for CC jobs, but can't find anything other thatn $500-600 per credit hour compensation, which is not a living wage and less than most elementary/middle/high school teachers make.  So, I'm considering law school or trying to get a teaching certification (preferrably high school).

 

Prior to getting my MA in phil I worked professionally in IT and Finance at a major non profit for 5ish years, so I do have some 'real-world' experience working I'm basing these plans on.

 

So, I'm in the same boat.  But, I'm intrigued by the prior post, what makes law school worse than accounting or IT or teaching high school or etc....?

 

DO NOT go to law school.  This is coming from a law school graduate.  There are probably 50 reasons I could give you to not go.

[PhilosophyHopeful2013]

(I went to a Tier 1 law school before anyone asks.)

 

To be very simple:  The jobs are often miserable.  People have these notions of what being a lawyer is, and it's a whole lot of paper pushing.  Some people are really meant to be lawyers, but I'd say those people are very few.  Many of my friends hate it, and almost every lawyer I encountered during my three years encouraged me not to do it.  A lot of attorneys become depressed, etc.

 

Going to law school is something you should do because you want to practice law and/or be a lawyer.  If you are unsure or need to convince yourself, it's likely not for you.

 

Practically, the job market is bad; there are too many law schools and thus too many law students, which means the economy will likely never be as booming as it once was.  Let's say you get a corporate law job.  You might be making 180k, but you will also have no life.  You will often be working 80 hour weeks.

 

Law school is also not going to give you a distinct 'skill set'.  Many lawyers have to learn how to be a lawyer AFTER they graduate.  There is some practical but not enough at all.  Law school can teach you how to think, but with philosophy experience as it is, you likely already have some notions as to how to think.

 

In addition, there's money.  If you can go for free, it's house money, but nearly everyone has to take out some kind of loan money.  Do you want to take out loan money for bad job prospects and general job unhappiness?  That's what a lot of my friends did.

 

Basically, I would only go to law school if you're sure you want to go.  By sure, I don't mean you think you'd be good at it or you'd be able to help people or whatever.  I mean that you've talked to a lot of people in law school, talked to some lawyers, and sat in on some classes.

 

If you have specific questions, I'll answer them.  I just do not recommend law school as a backup plan ever.

[superhamdi]

It's such a crapshoot. Seems like many people are getting multiple offers vs similar candidates with none.

[MKEPhil]

A backup plan should be something you can see yourself to doing happily.  It really depends on you.  That said, I don't recommend trying for another highly competitive field as a "fallback" unless you could see yourself being very happy doing it.  The people who succeed as lawyers WANT to be lawyers.

 

Also, I wouldn't get too discouraged after a bad season.  When I first applied, I hadn't yet finished undergrad and due to time commitments, most of my upper level phil courses were still in progress.  I was rejected uniformly.  I took a year off and worked in unskilled jobs (and as a tutor) and worked on my application material.  The next application cycle I was only accepted to MAs (I only applied to 2 PhDs) and now I have offers for PhDs on my third shot.  It was a long road and had a lot of setbacks but it can work out.  If philosophy is where you want to be, don't give up.  It can take a long time but taking the year to work on samples can make a huge difference. 

 

My first recommendation for a Plan B would be to apply again next year.  If, however, you think that you would be happy in a different career path, then maybe that's the right Plan B.  

Edited February 24, 2013 by MKEPhil

[hasbeen]

If it comes to it, I might do a Master's of Teaching program (One of the really good ones).  I love to teach, and that's really my primary goal within philosophy, to teach it.  Being involved in academia and contributing scholarly work is invigorating, but more than anything I love to teach.

[philosophia3]

Hey all,

 

This is my second round of applications. I first applied when I was a senior in college (November of 2011). I sent applications to 12 PhD programs in English (I have a Bachelors in Philosophy and English) and was (for the most part) rejected across the board. I had NO IDEA what I was going to do. So, I graduated college in May of '12, went on a road trip around America with some friends, got back home and found a job working at a college, on the administrative side (Admissions Office, to be precise). It's really not a bad gig to do for a year or two... It's fun to be in an academic environment while not being a student. It's something different. 

 

I applied to Philosophy programs this year and have done pretty alright so far (I applied to all continental programs, so I'm not going to try and pull Leiter ranked numbers, as none of my programs really fall into that list). I have one PhD acceptance, one PhD wait list, two rejections and several more to hear from.

 

What I'm trying to say is that working in the "real world" really isn't the end of the world. Try something that isn't philosophical in nature. Working and traveling helped me strengthen my writing sample and statement of purpose, as both really helped put things in perspective for me. Go enjoy yourself for a while! There are plenty of fulfilling things you can do that are not in a PhD program for philosophy. 

 

Cheers. 

[lesage13]

I appreciate the thoughts on law school, and I think that the general sentiment is sound: Go to law school only if you want to become a lawyer for its own sake. I'm still on the fence about that, though I suppose that just means that law school isn't a live option for me--at least for now. And I suspect that this will be true for teachers' college as well.

 

Working as an administrator sounds interesting, though. If anything, it'll keep me close to a school, and come with library privileges, which will be useful for polishing up that writing sample for the second go around. I guess the real problem is that I love school in part because I haven't really done anything else. And, especially coming out of an MA, I haven't had to think seriously about a possible place for me in the 'real world'. I suspect that this is a general problem for the academe, especially philosophy: Everything you do is geared towards making it to the next rung of academic achievement (e.g. getting into the PhD, finishing your dissertation, finding a job, getting published, getting tenure, etc.) that one's perspective becomes a bit myopic and narrow.

 

Maybe the real silver lining in not getting into anywhere is that it'll force me to engage with the not-so-academic... :/

[Billy Goehring]

I definitely understand your frustration. 

 

And, since I've had to work full-time (in VERY non-academic settings) throughout my B.A. and M.A., I can tell you first-hand that the world is wide and varied. Even if it's just for a break before next round of applications, let the outside world surprise you.

[youdontknowme]

Ugh.  Worked in the outside world for 30hrs a week in undergrad and for several years before going back to school for my grad education, and I hated every moment of it.

 

This is a sort of 'what could I do without losing my will for life' kind of choice.  It reminds of a quote:  "Death is not the greatest loss in life. The greatest loss is what dies inside us while we live."  This was my experience in the real world.

 

So, I've returned to academics because I've already tried the real world and it was--for me--not sustainable.  (For me, this was working at a lying bank and a corrupt non-profit).

 

So, law, teaching high school, etc... are all ways to try to find a non soul-killing life.  In that spirit, it really doesn't matter very much to me if I want to be a ________ (fill in the blank here: lawyer, teacher, etc...) or not, because it is about whether or not I can *survive* as a _________.

 

It is a hunt to find whatever is livable. 

 

I should say too, this is all just my personal experience.  This is all just me.  I'm not trying to say the real world is uniquivocally horrible and ubiquitiously corrupt.  It just was for the years I tried it.  The only livable jobs I found were the non-traditional ones, but most of those, unfortunately, do not supply a living wage (in terms of $20k a year and above, whether built up from hourly work or a salary).

[Billy Goehring]

Ugh.  Worked in the outside world for 30hrs a week in undergrad and for several years before going back to school for my grad education, and I hated every moment of it.

 

This is a sort of 'what could I do without losing my will for life' kind of choice.  It reminds of a quote:  "Death is not the greatest loss in life. The greatest loss is what dies inside us while we live."  This was my experience in the real world.

 

So, I've returned to academics because I've already tried the real world and it was--for me--not sustainable.  (For me, this was working at a lying bank and a corrupt non-profit).

 

So, law, teaching high school, etc... are all ways to try to find a non soul-killing life.  In that spirit, it really doesn't matter very much to me if I want to be a ________ (fill in the blank here: lawyer, teacher, etc...) or not, because it is about whether or not I can *survive* as a _________.

 

It is a hunt to find whatever is livable. 

 

I should say too, this is all just my personal experience.  This is all just me.  I'm not trying to say the real world is uniquivocally horrible and ubiquitiously corrupt.  It just was for the years I tried it.  The only livable jobs I found were the non-traditional ones, but most of those, unfortunately, do not supply a living wage (in terms of $20k a year and above, whether built up from hourly work or a salary).

I just want to reference the above contribution about how hellish it can be working as a lawyer (80 hr work weeks, etc).

And you can definitely find negative things to say about being a teacher.

I don't have a stake in either--I've never gone to law school (but what PhilosophyHopeful said above is pretty much in line with what I've heard), and I have no plan to teach anything below university level (but the market/job security isn't what it's cracked up to be in many states). I love academia, and plan on staying--I'm just saying that the outside world isn't all gloom and doom. I mean, it's absurd to suggest that your options are limited to law, teaching, or academia. 

 

I'm sorry that 30hrs a week was so miserable for you, youdontknowme. And you're right--that was your experience and I can't speak to that. But I've worked as a telemarketer, a barista, a sales associate in corporate retail, a T.A., and a waiter--I've met plenty of interesting people; money was sometimes tight, but sometimes it turned around. I just don't want anyone to get the impression that the pressures/frustrations/disappointments of the outside world are somehow different from those in academia. There's still plenty of byzantine bureaucracy, administrative pressure, issues with salary and job security, day-to-day dealings with undesirable people, etc. 

 

But if the OP is considering his/her options sans graduate school--there are plenty of other options. That's all I'm saying. The OP should still apply next year if he/she gets shut out, but should also give non-academic work a chance in the meantime. No shame in that.

[hasbeen]

"Don't go to law school."  That's advice that about 90% of law school applicants should heed.  So if you're still considering it, first ask yourself, "Am I really part of that 10% that will enjoy law school and enjoy being a lawyer?"  You probably aren't the exception to the rule, even if you think you are, so really, really consider it.

 

Two things to realize about the vast majority of law:  

 

(1) It is a lot of paper-pushing.

(2) It is a business, whether for-profit or non-profit, and thus has all the normal things one might not like about the business world, plus the possibility for dishonesty and corruption present in the worst of the business world.

 

The first reply to the OP question in this thread sums up the normal "style" of job for an associate at a midsized firm.

[whateverquine]

I'm not sure how helpful it is for me to contribute to this conversation since I've received an offer from a school that I will accept on my first round of applications, but from what I've heard it is worthwhile to reapply if one thinks their grades aren't prohibitive and has alternatives for both letters of recs and a writing sample. If you can strengthen these latter categories, and your professors aren't sending you "have you thought about law or IT?" signals, it's worth another shot...especially if you can increase the number of schools you apply to significantly over your year off.

 

The law school feedback is helpful (I had no idea the job market was so bad in law), but the "see the world" stuff doesn't seem all that helpful. I'm sure anyone who is surviving in a phil program somewhere has thought about "seeing the world," and with all due respect, Billy, I'm not sure if you have as much experience in the working world as you might think. Some of us have health problems and disabilities that make those lines of work prohibitive, and many of the jobs you mentioned do not come with adequate benefits if you have a significant disability or dependents. Some of us are in our 30s and 40s, so that sort work may simply not be options for us.

 

Anyway, if you are middle class (or wealthier), have no dependents, don't need to accomodate significant disabilities, by all means see the world. Otherwise, it would be interesting to see what sort of careers philosophers are suited for other than programming and law. I've heard of philosophers becoming quite happy teaching history, and Philosophy Bytes mentions that many sommeliers studied philosophy. I'm not sure what else philosophers are suited for if law is not an option.
 

[lesage13]

 Philosophy Bytes mentions that many sommeliers studied philosophy. 

 

Lol. Amazing, if true.

To those who were wondering: Yes, I do plan on reapplying next year, if I get shut out this season--though I'm going to have to sit down with my supervisor and look more carefully at where to apply. My problem right now is (1) finding something relatively productive (and hopefully interesting) to do in the next year (other than working on my apps), and (2) figure out a Plan B in case I get shutout again (I'm not going to apply a third year). I'm hoping that the answer to (1) will contribute to solving (2).

In any case, this will all be moot if one of my remaining apps pan out. But, I think that there is still a discussion that philosophers and those who aspire to be philosophers need to have here, given how competitive the field is (even just getting into a PhD program is brutal, nevermind finding a job after), and how (reportedly) terrible the job market is. The fact is that the vast majority of those who did a BA in philosophy will not (due to a lack of either luck, talent, or desire) end up becoming professional philosophers. Many of the talented, lucky few who get into PhD programs will not finish, and of the small fraction of students who will, many (most?) will get drummed out of the field after bouncing around for a few years as adjuncts. However, at least to me, it's not obvious what else one can feasibly do with a philosophy degree other than go on to another professional degree like law. And I don't think that this is due to a lack of imagination on my part. It's just not a topic that gets much attention in philosophy departments, for whatever reason, despite the fact that these are questions that most of us with philosophy degrees will inevitably have to answer.

[hasbeen]

In terms of people with just B.A.s in Philosophy, they tend to do just well in the world outside academia or law.  Philosophy majors are fairly middle-of-the-road in terms of starting salary, but they are tied with Math Majors for highest salary growth by the midpoint of their careers.  In terms of education,a lot of employers are just looking for people with degrees, whether Bachelor's or Master's, and then they train on-site.  What frequently happens with people who received training within their majors is that they have to be re-trained, because their previous training actually gets in the way of how the specific company runs.  In the weak economy, some employers have been preferring to deal with this problem rather than fully training someone coming from an unrelated major, but other employers have not changed their preferences and the former group of employers are slowly transitioning back as the economy improves.

 

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-Degrees_that_Pay_you_Back-sort.html

[introspectiveopacity]

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-Degrees_that_Pay_you_Back-sort.html

 

I'm always totally perplexed by charts like these. Median Starting Salary for philosophy majors is about $40,000. I'm a year out of college and I make about $10,000 year. I can't imagine myself making much more than $20,000 a year anytime in the next 5 years. Who the hell are all these people making $40,000+ a year as a starting salary? How? I'm not sure how I would ever make $40,000 a year in my lifetime (adjusting for inflation).

Edited February 27, 2013 by introspectiveopacity

[Philosopath]

Lol. Amazing, if true.

To those who were wondering: Yes, I do plan on reapplying next year, if I get shut out this season--though I'm going to have to sit down with my supervisor and look more carefully at where to apply. My problem right now is (1) finding something relatively productive (and hopefully interesting) to do in the next year (other than working on my apps), and (2) figure out a Plan B in case I get shutout again (I'm not going to apply a third year). I'm hoping that the answer to (1) will contribute to solving (2).

In any case, this will all be moot if one of my remaining apps pan out. But, I think that there is still a discussion that philosophers and those who aspire to be philosophers need to have here, given how competitive the field is (even just getting into a PhD program is brutal, nevermind finding a job after), and how (reportedly) terrible the job market is. The fact is that the vast majority of those who did a BA in philosophy will not (due to a lack of either luck, talent, or desire) end up becoming professional philosophers. Many of the talented, lucky few who get into PhD programs will not finish, and of the small fraction of students who will, many (most?) will get drummed out of the field after bouncing around for a few years as adjuncts. However, at least to me, it's not obvious what else one can feasibly do with a philosophy degree other than go on to another professional degree like law. And I don't think that this is due to a lack of imagination on my part. It's just not a topic that gets much attention in philosophy departments, for whatever reason, despite the fact that these are questions that most of us with philosophy degrees will inevitably have to answer.

 

I anticipate either not getting in anywhere or getting an offer, maybe two offers, that aren't sufficiently funded (think Brandeis and Tufts, possibly).  Assuming these thoughts are warranted, I've been scouring job search websites.  Indeed, as it's been pointed out in the thread, many entry-level jobs just require a B.A. degree.  However, it does seem that said jobs have preferred qualifications that are more difficult to meet as someone with a philosophy degree. 

 

I'm someone that's tinkered with the idea of law school.  But of course, I know it's not something I should commit to unless I really want to do it.  And let's face it, those law loans add up.  At least when you get a good philosophy offer, it's funded.  But I am still interested in working in the legal industry.  So I've applied to some entry-level paralegal jobs in the area.  It seems to me that certain firms are looking for people that have the skills that one generally develops as a philosophy major (meticulous attention to detail, sharp analytical skills, sufficient self-motivation and so on).  Obviously, though, these skills can be attained through many different majors.  I've also looked at entry-level jobs in college admissions (admissions counselor, admissions officer) that are open to all college graduates.  So there's stuff out there.  It's no doubt competitive, but crap, I doubt it's more competitive than ultimately getting a (good) job in philosophy. 

[LeftInLimbo]

I'm always totally perplexed by charts like these. Median Starting Salary for philosophy majors is about $40,000. I'm a year out of college and I make about $10,000 year. I can't imagine myself making much more than $20,000 a year anytime in the next 5 years. Who the hell are all these people making $40,000+ a year as a starting salary? How? I'm not sure how I would ever make $40,000 a year in my lifetime (adjusting for inflation).

 

Considering that a philosophy B.A, or M.A. for that matter, provides zero marketable skills or experience outside of academia, I can't imagine these surveys are very accurate.  A philosophy major has the qualifications to land an entry level job which will pay a bit more than minimum wage, if they get lucky.

[MKEPhil]

I'm always totally perplexed by charts like these. Median Starting Salary for philosophy majors is about $40,000. I'm a year out of college and I make about $10,000 year. I can't imagine myself making much more than $20,000 a year anytime in the next 5 years. Who the hell are all these people making $40,000+ a year as a starting salary? How? I'm not sure how I would ever make $40,000 a year in my lifetime (adjusting for inflation).

Most of those are likely entry level in business/accounting positions.  It's all about selling the "broad critical thinking skills" you get from a humanities degree.  Often you can place into jobs as a retail manager around that amount (though you will be working 60+ hours a week for it).  While in school I had a tutor center director and a retail manager before that who were both Philosophy BA's probably making around 40k.

Edited February 27, 2013 by MKEPhil

[Philosopath]

For me, the realities of studying philosophy in graduate school are finally sinking in.  One can make 40,000 with some luck straight out of college.  However, one may not even make anything after completing a PhD in philosophy.  And one needs A LOT of luck to score a good job in the field.  So I wonder if it's better to work for a few years, save money, and then do graduate school.  But that strategy certainly has its negative aspects.  Your letters are bound to be a little weaker.  Your philosophical writing will be rusty.  And so on.  So if you opt for a strategy like that, you've got to manage to stay active in the field in your spare time.  That's difficult to say the least.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Philosopath

[hasbeen]

If you have done nothing but go to class for the last four years, then yeah. But anyone in that boat probably has more problems than which major they chose.

[hasbeen]

Plus, a lot of times people don't market themselves well. Attention to detail and strong analytic skills are good, but majors like philosophy also show that you challenged yourself and worked hard through college. Employers tend to know what the easier majors are.

[Philosopath]

Plus, a lot of times people don't market themselves well. Attention to detail and strong analytic skills are good, but majors like philosophy also show that you challenged yourself and worked hard through college. Employers tend to know what the easier majors are.

 

I was talking to a theater major friend.  He's had some serious problems marketing himself (not that he's too good at it to begin with...), and some of the blame may be pinned on employers viewing 'artsy' majors as strange, haughty, not demanding and so on.

 

 I think there are a fair amount of employers that look favorably upon a philosophy major.  But I speculate that the vast majority of employers don't really understand what it entails.  Let's face it -- philosophy is an esoteric field.