Age of the permanent intern?

[traumerei]

I don't mean to scare anyone, but a lot of us are D.C. bound...

 

http://www.washingtonian.com/articles/people/the-age-of-the-permanent-intern/

 

Any thoughts? I'd be lying if I said my confidence didn't take a hit.

[intlrlns]

I've hired several MA+ candidates in DC for internships. I have a BA and just happened to be in the right place at the right time to be permanent staff. But now I know what to avoid, how to build up contacts etc. because I had an early start. I still think that depending on where you want to end up we may have to start at the bottom again. Scary.

[ridofme]

But now I know what to avoid, how to build up contacts etc. because I had an early start.

 

Any general advice you want to share on what to avoid? Especially in DC, where so many people are playing the same game?

 

I, too, have a good position with just a BA due to a right place/right time networking lead, but unfortunately I cannot move up here without an advanced degree. The idea of having to start at the bottom two years from now after obtaining a master's degree is terrifying. (It's worth mentioning that I don't want to return to my current employer.) This is another reason that I want to minimize debt.

[soaps]

I did three full-time unpaid government internships and one at a think tank that ended up hiring me. All of that I considered legwork to get an entry-level position and it required a ton of networking and "putting myself out there," so to speak. But even where I worked, it was becoming more and more common for entry-level positions to be filled by people with master's degrees even though they had a program specifically designed to hire undergrads. The ones with masters usually always came from the same mid-tier public policy programs, whereas many junior staff would end up going to top MPP/MPA programs and top MBA/JD programs after leaving.

 

I think this happens because a lot of people use a master's in lieu of internship/work experience and then go on to do those internships while studying to get their master's in DC (rather than as an undergrad). What it really comes down to isn't your degree, though, but those internships. Nailing a job afterward depends on how you sell yourself during elevator chats, happy hours, and interviews. It takes a bit of ego and maybe even arrogance (I certainly had an excess of it... thankfully not anymore), both of which are found in great supply in DC.

Edited March 11, 2013 by soapwater

[Dinosaur7]

I've worked in private sector policy (consulting) in DC for four years and currently for a prestigious firm. I will say this...I really don't think it is as bad or as difficult to find a permanent position as that article makes it out to be. And granted, I know that the plural of anecdote is not data, so take this with a grain of salt as it is just based on my and my friends' experiences.

 

Sure, there are a few people that get internship after internship. But most people I know that are currently in internships/recently left had full time offers that they turned down because they weren't "the right fit" or enough money. Maybe that was the best decision for them, but I think they were being overly picky. It's more important to get your foot in the door somewhere.

 

I will say this: jobs are increasingly looking for "jack of all trades" types, especially for us 20-somethings. They want you to write, do stats, lead calls, interview candidates...etc. You won't be considered an "expert" in anything for many years, no matter how rigorous your coursework or how specific your thesis. I think that's another issue with internships--more frequently you can get an internship focused on the subject you are really interested in, but full time positions will be broader and less specific. 

 

Also, I don't think it is based as much on connections/networking as people think, especially in the private sector. I got contacted for interviews after submitting my resume/cover letter for several positions, despite having no connections. I do think that connections/networking help big time for Hill/agency jobs and ultimately are more important there. 

 

So basically, if you are willing to take something that is slightly-less than your dream job, I don't think the DC job market is anything to fear. Obviously, if you want to go public sector straight out, network your butt off and focus on what sort of $$ you can get from schools because those positions are low(er)-paying. But I sincerely doubt that any of us talented candidates on the boards would be stuck in an internship-level position for many months/years on end if we don't want to.

 

I'm happy to answer any questions about DC that people have!

[dyavrom]

..

Edited March 11, 2013 by dyavrom

[dyavrom]

I've worked in private sector policy (consulting) in DC for four years and currently for a prestigious firm. I will say this...I really don't think it is as bad or as difficult to find a permanent position as that article makes it out to be. And granted, I know that the plural of anecdote is not data, so take this with a grain of salt as it is just based on my and my friends' experiences.

 

Sure, there are a few people that get internship after internship. But most people I know that are currently in internships/recently left had full time offers that they turned down because they weren't "the right fit" or enough money. Maybe that was the best decision for them, but I think they were being overly picky. It's more important to get your foot in the door somewhere.

 

I will say this: jobs are increasingly looking for "jack of all trades" types, especially for us 20-somethings. They want you to write, do stats, lead calls, interview candidates...etc. You won't be considered an "expert" in anything for many years, no matter how rigorous your coursework or how specific your thesis. I think that's another issue with internships--more frequently you can get an internship focused on the subject you are really interested in, but full time positions will be broader and less specific. 

 

Also, I don't think it is based as much on connections/networking as people think, especially in the private sector. I got contacted for interviews after submitting my resume/cover letter for several positions, despite having no connections. I do think that connections/networking help big time for Hill/agency jobs and ultimately are more important there. 

 

So basically, if you are willing to take something that is slightly-less than your dream job, I don't think the DC job market is anything to fear. Obviously, if you want to go public sector straight out, network your butt off and focus on what sort of $$ you can get from schools because those positions are low(er)-paying. But I sincerely doubt that any of us talented candidates on the boards would be stuck in an internship-level position for many months/years on end if we don't want to.

 

I'm happy to answer any questions about DC that people have!

 

hey dinosaur, mind if i PM you with some questions?  i just got into GWU for their international dev studies program, and being from California im not quite sure how it stands or what sorts of jobs are available for it.  let me know, thanks 

[Dinosaur7]

hey dinosaur, mind if i PM you with some questions?  i just got into GWU for their international dev studies program, and being from California im not quite sure how it stands or what sorts of jobs are available for it.  let me know, thanks 

Absolutely, no problem! Just be advised that my experience has been exclusively in domestic policy, so I'm not personally familiar with the international development field!

[CalSeeker]

I think this happens because a lot of people use a master's in lieu of internship/work experience and then go on to do those internships while studying to get their master's in DC (rather than as an undergrad). What it really comes down to isn't your degree, though, but those internships.

 

I think this is accurate.  A lot of the people in my current master's program have relatively little experience (or experience outside of the international affairs realm).  Almost everyone is doing internships (some paid, most not) now as a grad student, but I think that for many this is the first time they were able to get hands-on international affairs experience.  Of course, networking is also key.

 

I do think the DC job market is better than many places in the country (and if you want to work in IA, it is really the only place to be).  That said, be realistic about your ability to get a federal job if that is your goal.  With all the budget difficulties, cutbacks, and quirks of the application process, there may not be jobs available even if you are the perfect candidate.

[gatsby8724]

I absolutely agree with soapwater and CalSeeker.  I did my undergraduate studies in DC (GW) and one of the major selling points was the emphasis on "experiential education" -- i.e. interning while in school.  I not only graduated with a BA in International Affairs but also four years of relevant internship experience, which definitely played a role in getting a great entry-level job in my field afterwards.

 

As someone who now works for an international non-profit organization here in DC and recruits for entry/mid-level positions both in DC and the field, I've found applicants with a MA and some internship experience, but very little full-time work experience to be a bit of a challenge.  On the one hand, they don't necessarily have enough practical experience for a mid-level position, but you also question whether they'd be satisfied (and therefore give their all) to an entry-level post. 

 

I agree though that the DC job market is decent and employers like to hire known-entities.  Those internships can easily turn in to full time work after graduation or serve as solid references somewhere else.  It's all about networking in this town!

[ridofme]

The ones with masters usually always came from the same mid-tier public policy programs, whereas many junior staff would end up going to top MPP/MPA programs and top MBA/JD programs after leaving.

 

Out of curiosity, what would you consider to be "mid-tier" vs. elite? I know that the rankings are deeply flawed, but would you consider elite to be top 20, or basically just the heavy hitters like HKS, WWS, SAIS, etc.?

[intlrlns]

In my experience, the latter group is considered elite--HKS, WWS, SAIS. I am speaking purely from my own experience at a DC foreign policy think-tank. Of course other schools make their name but it's through contacts or exceptional standing. In sum, it would take them more effort to get a foot in. 

[Goose1459]

In my experience, the latter group is considered elite--HKS, WWS, SAIS. I am speaking purely from my own experience at a DC foreign policy think-tank. Of course other schools make their name but it's through contacts or exceptional standing. In sum, it would take them more effort to get a foot in. 

 

In your experience, is SFS/MSFS not included in this group? 

[intlrlns]

SFS is def. up there. Even within the elite schools I've seen some bias in favor of SAIS, SFS, HKS, and WWS over AU and GWU. Well, to be honest, I havent seen many HKS and WWS applicants around as interns in the think tank i was at. It's mostly the DC schools plus Fletcher...sometimes Yale, Syracuse and others..but they're definitely a minority where I work. Probably because a think tank is not the kind of place HKS or WWS students want to be at. They've probably done these gigs after undergrad and are now targeting other organizations based on their preferences. I'll be doing the same. 
 

Edited March 13, 2013 by intlrlns

[soaps]

Out of curiosity, what would you consider to be "mid-tier" vs. elite? I know that the rankings are deeply flawed, but would you consider elite to be top 20, or basically just the heavy hitters like HKS, WWS, SAIS, etc.?

 

GWU and American are mid-tier in DC, in my opinion. NYU/Wagner is mid-tier in New York. As others have mentioned, I encountered many GWU/American master's students completing the same think tank internships I was completing as an undergrad. You also see a lot of GWU and American grad. students going on to take entry-level positions. There isn't a "top 20" for public policy--the field is way too tiny in comparison to JD/MBA programs. There's maybe a top 5 for public policy, and the rest aren't particularly competitive/selective. 

I think the overall impression of GWU/AU students is that they're less experienced (i.e. straight to grad. school from college), and that the schools are factories. Most undergrads busting their arses doing a bunch of DC internships are set on the top MBA, JD, and public policy programs, not (needless to say) GWU or American. While we're just dealing with perceptions here, I agree with others that WWS and HKS are considered the top for public policy. SAIS,SFS, and SIPA (and maybe Fletcher?) are well-respected for IR. Yale has such a tiny program so, even if it's good, I never met anyone who went there.

People who go straight from college to grad. school realize all this a bit too late. It takes awhile to understand DC and this rather uncomfortable/oppressive state of perceptions there. There's an enormous east coast school bias, and even if you get into WWS and HKS, you're still out-classed by people who went to the top law and business schools. This is why I left DC. I was tired of the first question upon meeting someone being "Where do you work?", and the second being "Where did you go to school?" Not an exaggeration. 

My two cents: get work experience, then a few years down the line, you'll only be in a better position to apply to public policy programs. You may even decide a JD/MBA is more worth it, something too many public policy students realize too late when they're not earning the six figure salary they expected. 

Edited March 13, 2013 by soapwater

[intlrlns]

GWU and American are mid-tier in DC, in my opinion. NYU/Wagner is mid-tier in New York. As others have mentioned, I encountered many GWU/American master's students completing the same think tank internships I was completing as an undergrad. You also see a lot of GWU and American grad. students going on to take entry-level positions. There isn't a "top 20" for public policy--the field is way too tiny in comparison to JD/MBA programs. There's maybe a top 5 for public policy, and the rest aren't particularly competitive/selective. 

I think the overall impression of GWU/AU students is that they're less experienced (i.e. straight to grad. school from college), and that the schools are factories. Most undergrads busting their arses doing a bunch of DC internships are set on the top MBA, JD, and public policy programs, not (needless to say) GWU or American. While we're just dealing with perceptions here, I agree with others that WWS and HKS are considered the top for public policy. SAIS,SFS, and SIPA (and maybe Fletcher?) are well-respected for IR. Yale has such a tiny program so, even if it's good, I never met anyone who went there.

People who go straight from college to grad. school realize all this a bit too late. It takes awhile to understand DC and this rather uncomfortable/oppressive state of perceptions there. There's an enormous east coast school bias, and even if you get into WWS and HKS, you're still out-classed by people who went to the top law and business schools.

My two cents: get work experience, then a few years down the line, you'll only be in a better position to apply to public policy programs. You may even decide a JD/MBA is more worth it, something too many public policy students realize too late.

 

I wish I could be more eloquent on this forum but my insane job has been holding me back. I agree with all of the points made above. Work experience really gives you a good idea of the market and how students are evaluated based on their institutional affiliation. A lot of young think tank researchers opt for JD/MBA because they realize there just isn't enough room for everyone to keep moving up the ladder. That or their passion for IR dies a bit every time they look at their paycheck.  In the end no amount of cautious advice is going to help make individual decisions though because you really have to learn from your own experience to map your career path. 

I would have ideally wanted to apply for a dual degree (MBA) but I had some constrains that prevented me from doing so. Which is why I'm leaning towards SAIS because of its quant heavy curriculum. I want to add value to my IR experience at this point and SAIS comes the closest to offering that. 

Edited March 13, 2013 by intlrlns

[traumerei]

My two cents: get work experience, then a few years down the line, you'll only be in a better position to apply to public policy programs. You may even decide a JD/MBA is more worth it, something too many public policy students realize too late when they're not earning the six figure salary they expected. 

 

Given the current environment for JDs right now, I personally don't regret passing up law school. In fact, I'm getting the impression that we're all the in the same boat here, in terms of employment. Moreover, I hope public policy students aren't doing this for the salary...

[soaps]

Given the current environment for JDs right now, I personally don't regret passing up law school. In fact, I'm getting the impression that we're all the in the same boat here, in terms of employment. Moreover, I hope public policy students aren't doing this for the salary...

 

Sorry, I meant a top law or business school, not just any one. The market is definitely oversaturated with JDs and MBAs.

 

You'd be surprised how many people on this forum think an MPA can get them a job at a top strategy consulting firm. It's the cause of all the negativity in the HKS thread.

 

[soaps]

I wish I could be more eloquent on this forum but my insane job has been holding me back. I agree with all of the points made above. Work experience really gives you a good idea of the market and how students are evaluated based on their institutional affiliation. A lot of young think tank researchers opt for JD/MBA because they realize there just isn't enough room for everyone to keep moving up the ladder. That or their passion for IR dies a bit every time they look at their paycheck.  In the end no amount of cautious advice is going to help make individual decisions though because you really have to learn from your own experience to map your career path. 

I would have ideally wanted to apply for a dual degree (MBA) but I had some constrains that prevented me from doing so. Which is why I'm leaning towards SAIS because of its quant heavy curriculum. I want to add value to my IR experience at this point and SAIS comes the closest to offering that. 

 

Yeah, there is no upward mobility for research in IR or public policy. That's why research assistants/associates are the lowest paid at think tanks/NGOs, and most are just glorified admin. assistants anyway. Even on the program side where the are plenty of advancement opportunities, I think people eventually realize that they aren't really involved in the practice of public policy or IR; they're involved in the practice of talking about public policy and IR (and even then, only in a support role). Think tanks are just cushy early retirement homes for former practitioners, or an income supplement for academics. For junior support staff, I'm really not sure it's anything at all except for a brand name that may or may not get them into a top grad. program. For senior support staff, it must be a prison. It's why I left my job to get some real field experience. Anyway, maybe I've become too disgruntled or disillusioned. Don't mind me!

Edited March 13, 2013 by soapwater

[waltlaa9]

Yeah, there is no upward mobility for research in IR or public policy. That's why research assistants/associates are the lowest paid at think tanks/NGOs, and most are just glorified admin. assistants anyway. Even on the program side where the are plenty of advancement opportunities, I think people eventually realize that they aren't really involved in the practice of public policy or IR; they're involved in the practice of talking about public policy and IR. Think tanks are just cushy early retirement homes for former practitioners, or an income supplement for academics. For support staff, I'm really not sure it's anything at all except for a brand name that may or may not get them into a top grad. program. It's why I left my job to get some real field experience. Anyway, maybe I've become too disgruntled or disillusioned. Don't mind me!

 

soapwater, do you mind sharing the field you are in now? or at least what you consider to be "real field experience?" one of my motivations for going back to school is because I've become bored at my current job and realize that I need more technical skills (econ, stats) if I'm going to be competitive to move on/up to something more interesting. I've been on the front lines of field work so it's interesting to hear opinions about working in a think tank or similar NGO (and I've been bombarded with stories from others who are cynical about working in government and for the UN as well). 

Edited March 13, 2013 by waltlaa9

[soaps]

soapwater, do you mind sharing the field you are in now? or at least what you consider to be "real field experience?" one of my motivations for going back to school is because I've become bored at my current job and realize that I need more technical skills (econ, stats) if I'm going to be competitive to move on/up to something more interesting. I've been on the front lines of field work so it's interesting to hear opinions regarding the realities of working in a think tank or similar NGO (and I've been bombarded with stories from others who are cynical about working in government and for the UN as well). 

 

I used to work at a top foreign policy think tank and right now I'm a wayward wanderer, going back-and-forth between India and the U.S. doing research/planning and misc. projects for a unique NGO that helps refugees (all on a volunteer basis). I have zero interest in development agencies or large international NGOs... even if I could get a position at one, I imagine them being similar to the job I already had, just in a more exotic location. What has been your experience? 

 

I'm interested in human rights/refugee issues, but there are no employment prospects working with the particular refugee/displaced communities I'm interested in (i.e. no international NGO or IGO presence), so long-term I'm not exactly sure what I'll be doing. But in any case, I'm happier living in relative poverty with no job security than I was working at a think tank. I'm not sure if what I'm doing now is "real field experience" in comparison to yours, but I feel I'm accomplishing more over there than I was behind a computer screen organizing briefings, symposia, etc.

Edited March 13, 2013 by soapwater

[waltlaa9]

Thanks for your input. I've been working with refugees for the past couple of years and did some development work at NGOs as an intern before that. I really enjoy working with refugees, but the day in and day out repetition of the work is starting to drain me...it's not that I'm cynical, I've just learned as much as I can here (and I can confidently say that I'm leaving our office in a better place in terms of staff and services than when I was first hired on). I'd like to continue working with refugees but want to broaden my scope to conflict management. Not sure what that will look like or where it will take me yet. 

[intlrlns]

Yeah, there is no upward mobility for research in IR or public policy. That's why research assistants/associates are the lowest paid at think tanks/NGOs, and most are just glorified admin. assistants anyway. Even on the program side where the are plenty of advancement opportunities, I think people eventually realize that they aren't really involved in the practice of public policy or IR; they're involved in the practice of talking about public policy and IR (and even then, only in a support role). Think tanks are just cushy early retirement homes for former practitioners, or an income supplement for academics. For junior support staff, I'm really not sure it's anything at all except for a brand name that may or may not get them into a top grad. program. For senior support staff, it must be a prison. It's why I left my job to get some real field experience. Anyway, maybe I've become too disgruntled or disillusioned. Don't mind me!

Right on all points. I feel like we share very similar professional work experience I quit my DC job to really pursue my passion for making policy in the government. Have some regrets but learnt some lessons about where my life should head now. Or at least where I'd like to experiment next.