Harris vs. Ford

[App4MPP]

Wanted to get everyone

[decisiontime]

I am also very interested in the relative strengths/weaknesses. I applied to the dual MPP/MBA programs at both Michigan and Chicago. So far, the biggest differences I've seen are the focuses of the two business schools (Michigan - general management, Chicago - more finance) and that Michigan seems to have stronger dual degree programs overall. However, I'm not as clear on the big differentiators between the policy programs. And, the admitted student weekends are both the same so we'll need to pick which one to go to soon. Any thoughts?

[App4MPP]

I agree that it seems that if you want to do a dual degree Michigan may have more flexibility based on what I have read, although I know Chicago also allows for a dual degree in IR which I believe which maybe interesting to some people. But I think Chicago has nice hand up as their economics rep and being known for putting out grads who not only have theory but also have the skills to understand the number crunching as well. Again both are strong.

What I do like about Michigan's program is they do a "mock" policy analysis project (integrated policy exercise) which seems like a cool addition to the curriculum - not sure if Chicago has similar item built into core.

[Stephen33]

Current Harris student here.

I faced the same choice last year, so I will enumerate what I see as the main differences between the two programs. I am reasonably familiar with Ford since I gave it a close look before choosing Harris, but inquiries regarding Ford are best directed toward current Ford students. That said, here are my basic impressions:

1. I think the emphasis on economics (and, more generally, "rational choice" models within the broader political economy sphere) is stronger at Harris. This comes, perhaps (but not necessarily), at the expense of other characteristics. Ford struck me as a school that tries to balance economic/quantitative training with a more traditional "public administration/management" curriculum. You can obtain some of the latter at Harris through course offerings in other departments (Business school and perhaps Social Service Administration), but you can also avoid it if you prefer. What you cannot avoid, however, are healthy doses of economics and statistics (2 quarters' worth apiece) and political economy (a 3-quarter sequence), all required.

2. The political economy sequence at Chicago is distinctive (I did not see a counterpart at any of the policy programs I looked at), and I think is a major strength of the program at Harris. If any students are interested in the particulars of this sequence, feel free to PM me. This sequence, in conjunction with the economic theory requirements, lays a strong conceptual foundation for the policy field courses.

3. The quarter system at Chicago versus the semester system at Michigan. The quarter system means that you take 18 courses over 2 years, instead of 12. Once the core requirements are met (7 courses worth), this gives an enormous amount of latitude to take other courses of interest throughout the university. Apart from the 7 core courses, you take a minimum of 5 courses at the Harris School and up to 6 courses in other departments (most frequently in the Law School, Business School, and economics and political science departments). To cite one example, several of my classmates are taking Gary Becker's course on Human Capital in the upcoming term (I am thinking about it).

I hope this is helpful. As noted above, please feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

[pandacamel]

At Harris, is it possible to enroll in four classes in a given quarter?

[Stephen33]

Yes, you may enroll in 4 classes per quarter, but I would consider the matter carefully before doing so. Most students are busy enough with the standard load of 3.

[App4MPP]

Thanks Stephen33 - those are great comments. The point about having opportunity to take wider array of classes on quarter structure is something I hadnt thought of.

With your comments on for better or worse, Harris forcing the additional stats/econ courses over the administration management courses (which I agree you can get at several other programs even outside MPP) do you ever feel there

[Stephen33]

App4MPP

Thanks for your comments. In response to your question, I do not consider the quantitative requirements here excessive by any means. I think they are appropriate, in that they ensure that graduates have a sufficient degree of technical expertise to "ask the right questions" about any given piece of policy research. In addition, there are two separate statistics sequences here: one more theoretical and mathematical (appropriate for those who may be considering a PhD) and a second, more practical, stream for the rest of us who do not aspire to be academicians or researchers. The latter stream is not overly technical or mathematically demanding. Probably the toughest core courses for most students - assuming that you are not taking the advanced stats sequence - are the 2 courses in the core economics sequence. Even there, the technical requirements do not extend beyond basic calculus (for which you are taught all you need in math camp). There are plenty of more advanced economics/econometrics courses if you like that sort of thing, but none are required.

In short, I think the balance here is fine.

[MagiciansAlliance]

I'm deciding between these two programs as well, although I'm probably leaning towards Ford. This is partly because of funding, but not entirely. So far, I've found Ford to be more welcoming (I was contacted directly by a current MPP--when I asked why she chose Ford,she responded with a long, compelling email within the hour). I have a fairly strong quant background (econ undergrad major), so I suspect that I'll be able to take a number of electives at either program. Because of this,it's quite likely I'll pursue a dual-degree, which is more possible at Michigan. I've also heard really great things about the Michigan faculty and the availability of research positions at Ford.

I'm going to visit both schools in a couple of weeks. I'll post my impressions of the two when I return.

[xnormajeanx]

(Current Harris student here.)

All Harris admits are being contacted by current MPP students as well -- it's possible they just haven't gotten to you yet

I think the big advantage Harris has over Ford is its relationship with the Chicago area. If you look at the Harris school's board of trustees, they are all very influential people in the Chicago and the Midwest - leaders and directors of foundations, large nonprofits, public-private initiatives, social entrepreneurs, private sector business leaders involved in civic life, etc. And Harris does a very good job cultivating and maintaining these types of relationships through the mentorship program as well as a "leadership in chicago" class/fellowship.

Chicago in general is also a much more happening place than Ann Arbor, in my opinion, when it comes to policy - especially in areas such as urban development, education policy, environmental policy, housing and welfare/labor policy, and immigration. It's a perfect laboratory if you are interested in being engaged with the community and working on real state and local issues. Chicago also actually has offices for national agencies like the Government Accountability Office (our largest employer!), Dept of Health and Human Services, etc. Harris is definitely less advantageous if you are more interested in national policy such as defense/security -- but so, I believe, is Ford.

[MagiciansAlliance]

Thanks xnormajeanx, you make a lot of really good points, especially regarding opportunities outside the classroom. That being said, I'm curious if it is common for faculty members to work with MPPs on research projects, or generally engage with students outside of the scope of normal classes. Is that something you've experienced or seen much of?

[xnormajeanx]

Admittedly the faculty are not as engaged with the community as I had expected. I think this is a classic University of Chicago ivory tower-esque culture thing, and I don't know how it compares to other schools. Many of the faculty do research on Chicago-area issues from a several thousand-foot view but don't necessarily engage with policy on the ground. It's up to students -- often accomplished through part-time jobs and internships, volunteering, or through student groups and other student initiatives.

As for faculty-student relationships, it varies tremendously. One disadvantage of Harris is the larger class sizes in the first year. This makes it more difficult to cultivate one-on-one relationships with professors for the first part of your Harris experience. One of the stats professors is well known for meeting students for drinks to discuss policy (and also hosted a bar party after exams last week); another professor frequently shows up at student outings and parties; some are actively engaged in student organizations' activities, donating expertise, time and resources. But there are definitely professors who seem to appear to have no desire to know the MPPs or participate in Harris life.

Hope this helps!

[App4MPP]

Thanks for all comments from current Harris students - appreciate you taking time to check the post and honesty. Any Ford students out there that compared two schools in making choice?

xnormajeanx - Could you give us numbers on typical numbers in core classes? Are there many undergrads? Do the numbers dwindle during second year electives?

Thanks!

[xnormajeanx]

Core classes are very large because they comprise the entire class, or nearly all of it except for those who waive out - about 80-120 people. My core stats is a little smaller (30ish) because I am in the math-heavy track and fewer people opt for that. After your first two quarters, you will start taking electives which are generally a lot smaller and depends on how popular the class is. I'm taking cost-benefit analysis this quarter, for example, which has almost 70 people because everyone wants to take the class. I would say most Harris electives, however, have been 5 and 30 people. You also have the option of taking classes outside of Harris of course, and those can be very large, but that is up to you.

[App4MPP]

Was anyone able to make it to the Ford or Harris visit days this past Friday? I was bummed I couldnt make it to either and was hoping to get any thoughts/impressions from those who were able to attend.

Thanks!

[MagiciansAlliance]

App4MPP,

I just got back from visiting Harris and Ford. I should start by saying that I was leaning towards Ford going into the weekend (due to a combination of a slight funding advantage at Ford, and my perceived idea that Ford is more established and has a better reputation). Because of this inclination, I sat in on classes at Chicago on Thursday and attended the admitted students sessions at Ford on Friday and Saturday--which probably means I gave Ford a closer examination.

Chicago

The University is beautiful (although the Harris building is new, and in my opinion, unattractive). That being said, Hyde Park is tiny and surrounded by slums. A student told me that most of the MPPs live on the North side and commute to campus (about 35-45 minutes each way). I sat in on a couple of classes and came away with a favorable impression--but I wasn't blown away. All of the students that I spoke to on campus were very nice, seemed intelligent, but weren't particularly outgoing. Throughout my trip, I felt as though I needed to act proactively in order to get what I wanted. It wasn't that anyone was unhappy to engage with me, but they also didn't seem interested in going out of their way to show me a good time.

In regards to academics, U. Chicago is a great school and the Harris school is no different. I particularly like the trimester system, for all the reasons mentioned above. The large core class sizes is a bit of a turn-off, but not the end of the world. Electives and seminars are much smaller.

Michigan

Ann Arbor is definitely a college town. The first person I spoke to in Ann Arbor was a cab driver, and he immediately started trying to sell me on the school (his claim that there was an abundance of attractive women and a dearth of eligible males seemed dubious, but when he started talking about how safe the city was my ears perked up...as the previous day I found myself lost, for about 45 minutes in one of the slums that abuts the Chicago campus). In general, I found the Ford school and U. of M. to be a remarkably welcoming place. The Spring Preview event was extremely well organized. Students, alumni, and even faculty members seemed eager to speak with me (although not a random sample, I was still impressed). One alumni mentioned to me that he had picked Ford over Harris, in large part due to institutional support. He said when he visited Harris he spoke to a student who had failed Calculus twice, and was taking it for a third time. When he asked if the student had spoken to their adviser, the student mentioned that they don't have faculty advisers at Harris.

Conclusion

I came in with a bit of a bias towards Michigan, and it's possible I didn't give Chicago a fair chance. That being said, I really was impressed by the network and support at Ford and I'm pretty sure it's where I'm going to end up. The second day at Ford I spoke with another prospective student who was considering both schools. She said that she had attended Chicago's events on Friday, and found them a bit dour. At Michigan, by comparison, everyone seemed upbeat and engaged in the community (which was my impression as well).

In all honesty, I think both schools have a lot of good attributes. I really wish, for example, that Ford was on the trimester system, or that Detroit offered the same career opportunities as Chicago). That being said, I think that I will end up at Ford for the following reasons:

1. A real sense of community and institutional backing

2. Fantastic dual degree opportunities

3. Living on/near campus vs commuting

4. A very engaged career services department (2 full time employees who's sole job is to help you find internships and jobs--current students and alumni raved about these two people)

[Stephen33]

Current Harris student here. One point of clarification: most of the MPP students I know do not commute, but live near the university here in Hyde Park. I think between a quarter and a third of Harris students live elsewhere in Chicago.

Hyde Park is small and relatively sedate (certainly less vibrant than downtown or some of the North Side neighborhoods) but I have found it pleasant enough. Before coming here I was concerned about the rather tough surrounding neighborhoods, but they are not really relevant to the day-to-day life of a student. I don't think it is appreciably different here than any other urban campus in America.

btw, I share the previous poster's liking of Ann Arbor; I too found it great college town, but decided to come to Chicago anyway. Either choice is a good one.

[MagiciansAlliance]

Thanks for the clarification, Steven33, and your insights about living in Chicago. I echo your comment that either choice would be a good one. I will also readily admit that preview weekends are always a bit of a crapshoot, and I'm sure that I came away heavily influenced by the opinions and general demeanor of a small sample size at each school.

[Stephen33]

MagiciansAlliance, thanks. I had no problems with your comments, which seemed an entirely honest reflection of your observations and impressions. Further, you went out of your way to concede any potential bias on your part. You were very fair.

It is rather funny, but I saw some of the same things at Harris last year as a prospective student, and reached a different conclusion. At Harris, I asked for - and received- what I considered a balanced view of the school's pluses and minuses. People here tend to be very honest - sometimes to their own and their school's detriment - and "boosterism" is practically non-existent. I liked the feeling that I had an objective basis for an informed assessment. This is not to take away anything from other schools, but I refuse to believe that "everything is great" at other schools. The problem is, you tend to find out about these things later on, rather than when such information can be most useful. I am thinking in particular, though not exclusively, of factors such as placement.

The key piece I of advice I would offer prospective students considering any given school is to ask hard questions, and if you don't get what seem to be satisfactory answers from administration/students/alumni, then ask persons who are not affiliated with any of the schools you are actively considering. In fact, I would do the latter anyway, just to be certain.

Good luck to all with your decisions.

[Stephen33]

Just one quick follow-up to Magician'sAlliance's post: he mentioned a second-hand account of a student who supposedly failed the calculus placement test twice. This is most certainly an outlier. About two-thirds of my cohort passed the placement test on the first try, and I believe the vast majority of the remainder passed it the second time around. The calculus requirement here is not onerous by any means, but you have to put in the work. I had been out of school for over a decade prior to entering the program, and passed the placement test without any difficulty on the first try. But I studied diligently during math camp. Also, I'm not sure how a faculty advisor can help one study for math test. Like I said before, you have to put in the work. Not every student does.

[App4MPP]

Thanks for everyones comments: while I wasn

[xnormajeanx]

While I obviously respect anybody's decision to choose Ford over Harris, since this post is on the record I'd like to correct it in some respects. I guess it sort of upsets me because it gives an impression of Harris that I find inaccurate, especially the parts about the student body and the effort we put into recruiting and making prospectives feel welcome. I participated heavily in the recruiting events and so did quite a few of my friends, going out of our way and spending hours of our time to help people make their decisions--especially, for example, on Friday, when we didn't have classes yet spent the whole day on campus anyway. While there some criticisms of Harris that are legitimate, others are wrong or presented in a misleading way, and I don't want other people to read this thread and have it inform their decisions in the wrong way.

App4MPP,

Chicago

The University is beautiful (although the Harris building is new, and in my opinion, unattractive). That being said, Hyde Park is tiny and surrounded by slums. A student told me that most of the MPPs live on the North side and commute to campus (about 35-45 minutes each way).

Yes, the building is unattractive, and it's the worst part of Harris. Also Hyde Park does have some "bad" areas, but it's also home to some of the most affluent people in Chicago -- (the Obamas, anyone?). Whoever told you most MPPs live on the North side is dead wrong. I'd say about 1/4 to 1/3. Most people live in Hyde Park. I, however, do live downtown, but that was because my fiance needed access to the North side. Getting to live in downtown Chicago is, however, a plus for most people. Chicago is a beautiful city and it's a great place to study policy (see previous posts).

I sat in on a couple of classes and came away with a favorable impression--but I wasn't blown away. All of the students that I spoke to on campus were very nice, seemed intelligent, but weren't particularly outgoing.

Did you attend the pub night Thursday or the dinner Friday? I went to both, and there were a LOT of current students there chatting up the prospectives. Thursday wasn't an "official" recruiting day, so it's very possible the students didn't realize or didn't notice you were an admitted student -- if they didn't recognize you, they probably thought you were a student from one of the other schools sitting in on classes. I and many students I witnessed DID go out of our ways to meet the prospective students, provide information and "show them a good time" - even driving people back to their hotels after events, etc.

Throughout my trip, I felt as though I needed to act proactively in order to get what I wanted. It wasn't that anyone was unhappy to engage with me, but they also didn't seem interested in going out of their way to show me a good time.

I don't think you gave the UC a fair chance given that you didn't stay for Friday, during which you would have gotten the most interaction with current students as well as the most "programming". Thursday was more of a wander-around type of day. On Friday, everyone was eager and excited to talk to the prospective students -- especially considering nobody has classes on Friday yet came to Harris anyway JUST to talk to all of you.

In general, I found the Ford school and U. of M. to be a remarkably welcoming place. The Spring Preview event was extremely well organized. Students, alumni, and even faculty members seemed eager to speak with me (although not a random sample, I was still impressed). One alumni mentioned to me that he had picked Ford over Harris, in large part due to institutional support. He said when he visited Harris he spoke to a student who had failed Calculus twice, and was taking it for a third time. When he asked if the student had spoken to their adviser, the student mentioned that they don't have faculty advisers at Harris.

Hmm. Ford students bad-mouthing Harris. Interesting. We Harris students were given instructions not to bad-mouth any other schools during the admitted student weekend. For any comparison between two schools, there will be students who turned down one and went to the other. Also -- does it worry you at all that people who are worried about passing calculus are choosing Ford?

It's true we don't have faculty advisers, but that doesn't mean there aren't people you can see if you have questions. The Dean of Students and the assistant dean know all of us by name, and they are very accessible. Not to mention you'll find professors in the areas you are interested in, who would be better advisers in all likelihood than ones assigned by the school. I haven't had a problem not having a faculty adviser. If you do a thesis you WILL have a thesis adviser.

4. A very engaged career services department (2 full time employees who's sole job is to help you find internships and jobs--current students and alumni raved about these two people)

Just FYI - Harris has 4, not including Harris alumni relations.

Anyway, so you didn't really give Harris a fair chance. That's OK if you were planning to choose Ford anyway. I just wanted to offer a rebuttal in case anyone else out there might be informing their decisions based on these posts.

[Stephen33]

I think people are entitled to their own impressions, which is why I limited my previous responses to points of fact. That said, I would not disagree with the substance of normajean's comments about Harris. As those who have read her other posts can attest, she is candid, and by no means a "homer" (some of you may recall that she recommended SIPA over Harris to a prospective student whose interests lie in IR).

If anyone has further questions about Harris, feel free to ask via post or PM.

[App4MPP]

I second some of the thoughts of the Harris folks. I did get chance to visit one school although it was not during their official visit day. I gave them some credit realizing that the red carpet is pulled out for the official visit days and thus comparing one schools official event to simply a campus visit is tough. Another interesting point, I think its a positive that the Harris folks are answering some of the questions and while supporting their choice to attend Harris also being honest in their responses - I dont see any Ford school current students posting on any of the Ford discussions.

Quick question:

Is the Harris building new? I know the Ford building is new and looks gorgeous from some of the pictures. I found some old articles on internet about Harris preparing for new building few years back but cant figure out if this is the building they are in now or if they are planning for future (the one they are in now is pretty ugly from outside, how are the facilities inside?). I know minor detail but got me thinking when it came up in post discussions - just curious.

[Stephen33]

The Ford building is very nice (he writes somewhat wistfully). The Harris building is functional, not unlike a lot of government offices. It is not new; I'd guess that it has been around about 30 years. A new building has been approved, but it won't come in time to benefit this year's entering class. On the other hand, the University of Chicago campus overall is very beautiful, and it is small enough that it a few minutes' walk will take you to numerous study/relaxation spots that are as nice as can be.

So: Building: Advantage Ford

Campus: Advantage Harris

City: You decide

.