Advice needed.

[Kashim]

Hello, 

I am new to the forum, and I am not sure if Im posting this on the appropriate board, but I have a question. 

 

As of now, I am a 2nd yr student at one of top 5 law schools in US. I took 2 years off after college to work and take it easy for a while. However over those 2 years, through some independent studying, I developed an intense passion for reading philosophy.

As naive as it may seem, I felt like I found my calling. 

 

Despite the obvious limit to how much I could have learned over such a short period of time, I really felt like the books and the thinkers I came across had completely changed me. I ended up heading to law school very skeptical about the prospect of me being able to love or find anything more meaningful than

 learning more about this subject that seemed all too relevant, and gave me such thrills. 

 

Having spent a year here, I realize I want out, and I want to study continental philosophy. I know how naive this sounds, and my friends have not shied away from letting me know how they feel about my plans of quitting law school to study a subject I have not even majored in during college. But it is what I want. I want to at least give it a shot. And I know being an attorney is not for me. 

 

My question/concern is that as much as I would like to start at a graduate level right away. I have not taken any philosophy 

class beyond the first year level during college, and I do not have proficiency in any of the required languages.

I expect I would need to go back to school (Canadian UG, I am a Canadian national. I wouldn't mind going back to my undergrad and taking some courses, even a lot of them. I am allowed to.), or take courses outside of my department here to produce a writing sample and get the necessary training in order for me to be able to apply for any MA or Ph.D program. 

 

I know that I would need a good GPA, GRE score, and a writing sample on top of everything else. But I just wanted to know how many credits in philosophy classes and relevant language proficiency are customarily required, and how I should approach applying for a graduate program, should I aim for MA? or Ph.D? 

 

 

Apologies for being so clueless, but any advice would be appreciated.

 

Thank you in advance. 

Edited September 26, 2013 by Kashim

[frege-bombs]

Kashim, 

 

First, I'd just like to say that I very much empathize with what you've said. I just finished my 1L year (not a T5 school, but top public in the 30s) and absolutely hated it. After graduating with a BA in philosophy from a good liberal arts college, I went straight through to law school, thinking that my time spent crafting arguments and thinking analytically would translate to law school success. This was a very naive view in hindsight. I missed the more abstract subject matter of philosophy, and found law to be excruciatingly practical. I withdrew from law school and am taking the year to apply to philosophy graduate programs. After talking with some of my old phil. professors and friends with experience in philosophy grad programs, I have learned that my experience isn't all that uncommon. So, while switching to phil. may sound naive to some of your law school peers, I wouldn't worry about it so much. The way I see it, if this is truly what you want to do, and you wouldn't be satisfied without at least taking a shot, then it's better to have learned this about yourself now after only one year in law school (as opposed to three, five, ten years down the road). 

 

With regards to next steps, I would say that you have a few options. Because you don't have an undergraduate degree in philosophy, getting the requisite background in philosophy necessary for graduate work would need to be a priority. To that end, it is my understanding that MA programs can be very useful. You need not have been a philosophy major to attend these programs. It may be the case, however, that you'll need to take certain prerequisite classes at that institution, such as logic, ethics, a couple history of phil. classes, and maybe an introductory metaphysics/epistemology course, before you can be admitted as a full time graduate student. You mention that you are allowed to take philosophy courses at your undergrad school -- this sounds like it would be a great way to knock out any prereqs an MA program would require. And, from what I've read, there are several fantastic Canadian MA programs that have excellent placement records to PhD programs. It's not an exhaustive list, but I'd start by exploring the programs here:

 

http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/maprog.asp

 

I'll be applying to all MA programs this fall, as they seem ideal for someone like you or me who found themselves drawn to philosophy a little later on in the game. 

 

Another thing you could do is stay in law school and spend time in the philosophy department on the side. If you're at a T5 law school, that means you're either at Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, or Chicago -- all schools with incredible philosophy departments. You could try and audit some undergrad courses there in your 2L year and maybe work yourself up to grad level courses by 3L year. Maybe find a course that sounds interesting to you and send a friendly email to the professor explaining your situation... some might be less receptive than others, but I'm sure you could find one who would be happy to let you sit in on their class. Doing well in the course and establishing a relationship with the professor could go a long way. This might be tough to do on top of balancing all of your law school commitments, however, so you'd have to weigh your options. And, if you're like me, then you might not want to spend any more time in law school if you know your heart is just not in it. Of course, this may be a more difficult decision to make at a better ranked law school than mine. 

 

I hope some of this has been helpful. It should probably be taken with a grain of salt, as I haven't studied philosophy at the graduate level yet and others might have better things to say. As someone who recently made the choice to leave law school to pursue philosophy, I can say that, having done it, it simply feels right. This may change when I don't get in anywhere this application cycle, but for now, I feel good about where I am. Best of luck! 

[philstudent1991]

I definitely can relate to the choice between doing what you love and doing what seems to make sense, financially and otherwise. In your case, I would be so, so hesitant to leave a top 5 law school to go pursue a degree in philosophy, just in order to apply to a continental phd program, many of which are among the most competitive of all. I know you've already thought of this and it's not what you want to hear, but I just wouldn't want the buzz of the prospect of positive change to blind you to the bad side of this, which is that you are sacrificing a better part of a decade in earning potential, and even on the other side of the degree the job prospects are scarce, very much the opposite of the prospects you will have as a graduate of a top 5 law school.

 

Since you're at a top 5 law school, your philosophy department is probably top 10 or so. Definitely, as the above poster said, audit some undergraduate courses, talk with professors, etc. Maybe that can help you both find your way and boost your chances. I think if I were you I would apply straight into PhD programs as is. Your chances will be meager, no doubt. But your chances will be only slightly less meager with another degree, which will take thousands of dollars and years of your time. This way, if you don't get in anywhere you can stay in school and still say you tried, and if you do get in somewhere then great. But I wouldn't make such a leap as leaving school. I just wouldn't do it. But it's a choice only you can make.

[maxhgns]

I'm going to reiterate the advice given above: it's not really worth quitting law school, especially not at a T5 institution, and especially not when you're halfway through. Your global prospects are much better with a law degree from one of those schools than with any philosophy degree. Hell, even your philosophy prospects will benefit from a law degree (phil. of law is an excellent and attractive area of teaching competence, and the two degrees would position you well for a joint hire).

 

That said, you needn't give up on philosophy either. Use the time left to you in law school to position yourself as strongly as possible for an MA (and try a Canadian MA--they're funded more/more often than US MAs are). Use your time to audit classes, and acquire some of the background you'll need. Use that time to get a solid letter of recommendation from one of your teachers (who will likely be a well-known philosopher, which is especially useful). Use that time to acquaint yourself with philosophy, and make sure you really do want to pursue it. Use your free time to acquire advanced proficiency in another language (if you're Canadian, you should have several years of French already; building on that should be easier than trying to acquire German from scratch. You can always attack German from a position of strength later, as a grad student).

 

And then, when you hit the job market, you'll have a solid fallback option thanks to your fancy law degree.

 

 

If I were you, that's what I'd do. It's a hard road, to be sure, but not nearly as grim as quitting and pursuing philosophy. Use your current position to your advantage! There are all kinds of advantages to be had, you just have to reach out and take them.

[Kashim]

First of all, thank you for the responses, I really appreciate all of your advice. 

 

I am very certain that being an attorney is something I would not enjoy, and that I will pursue study of philosophy. 

 

but I understand that giving up on my degree 

 

just seems a little too drastic at this point, and there are benefits I can take away from being where I am. 

 

I just have one question in regard to your recommendations. I imagine I am allowed to sit in for philo courses in the

 

undergraduate dept. However, since I have only taken basic courses in phil, I was under the impression that I would need to 

 

actually take those basic courses in philosophy (register, take tests, submit papers, get credits/grades, etc ) in order to apply

 

for MA and possibly work towards applying for a Ph.D program. I imagine actually taking classes cannot hurt, but 

 

I was wondering if you guys really think just sitting in for classes (or am I misunderstanding the term audit?) 

 

should be sufficient at this point to get a feel for the subject, and get to know the profs. 

 

Thank you. 

 

[confuzzled]

Sounds to me like you really believe that you don't want to be an attorney, but don't really know what you should do instead. If you don't even "have a feel for the subject [philosophy]" why do you think this plan will turn out any better than law school? Maybe getting another degree isn't the answer! At least take a few baby steps before committing to something you might regret all over again. [/soapbox]

 

On another note: if what you are really interested in is continental philosophy, you might consider taking some English lit/cultural studies type courses to see if you prefer that general style of doing "philosophy". Plus, I did 50 odd credits in upper division philosophy, and I honestly learned a lot more about continental philosophy from my 16 English lit credits (obviously this will vary depending on where you intend to study).

[maxhgns]

Remember that having a law degree =/= becoming an attorney. To be a lawyer, you have to pass the Bar. But just having a law degree is very useful if you're looking for jobs with NGOs, in politics, or even just doing grunt work at some firm or clinic.

 

 

 

You (typically) do not need a background in philosophy to pursue an MA. Having that background is desirable, but it's not usually a necessary condition for getting in. By auditing, you acquire that background even though you don't get credited for it. Just sitting in (and actively participating!) is definitely sufficient to get a feel for the subject and build a relation with profs. 

[thelonious23]

What's really going to matter is your writing. You'll need enough of an understanding of basic concepts to come up with a good writing sample, but if you can do that, you should be able to make the switch. Letter writers who are sensitive to your new interests would also be extremely helpful. And like the above poster, I would recommend an MA. It's a good way to get some real philosophic work under your belt before committing to PhD applications, and it will likely help you access a broader range of schools. Good MA programs are focused on getting PhD placements for their graduates, and they know what they are doing. 

 

I've certainly known students, both in my MA and now in my doctoral program, who have little or no background in philosophy.