SAIS vs MSFS: The Debate

[IA+Math]

Anyone else struggling to make the decision? Only a few days left before the April 20 deadline and I am not leaning any direction over the other. I have spoken to current students and faculty/staff and both have left me with great impressions and have spoken highly of the other school (and that realism and honesty makes me like their school even more).

I realize this is the definition of champagne problems but it nevertheless is hard to decide.

As I aiming to work in the private sector, specifically finance and human rights in Southeast and East Asia, both seem to have certain pros and cons.

Size:

• Georgetown is smaller, meaning it will be more close-knit and I will have greater access to professors and career servies, and also makes the MSFS degree on the resume more unique. The student body seems really wonderful, with each person having their own narrative (a bit like Fletcher in that regard).
• SAIS is bigger, which may be harder in terms of standing out, but it also means the network will be bigger and farther reaching. Though it seems to have more similar types of students than MSFS, it also sends them in a more refined direction and thus we will have contacts in places relevant to our interests. 

Econ/Finance:

• MSFS's Global Business and Finance concentration seems very relevant for my finance and private sector goals. I do like the interdisciplinary nature of it in many regards. However, I am still not sure if it will have as much meaning as the SAIS degree in terms of quantitative rigor and recognition. 
• SAIS's Int'lt Dev concentration is top notch. After puzzling out a giant spreadsheet of course paths, it seems that all but 2 classes will be in econ.  I am wondering how these translate in terms of business and finance as they are very macro focused.  

Career Services:

• MSFS, as it is smaller, seems to be able to devote more to career services. They don't go to bat for their students as hard as Fletcher, but they still seem to be very proactive. However, my impression is that it is much more public sector and foreign service oriented, which isn't exactly my preferred direction. I am not sure if MSFS GBF is as recognized in the private sector as SAIS is.
• SAIS has more private sector grads (or so it seems) but it also has a much weaker career services. I realize you get what you put in, but considering the price tag of these schools, I figure career services assistance should be part of that. Also, when applying to jobs, it seems that not only are you competing against the masses, but a lot of other SAISers with very similar resumes. Thus, more relevant for private sector but must work for it more. I hear that the World Bank is a large consumer of SAIS grads, but only for contract jobs. 

Prestige/Name:

• Both seem great, very respected, etc. I am not really that big on name or prestige, but I hope to work internationally where name probably matters more so I am torn. From what I have gathered, I have no clear indication which is more respected outside of DC, let alone outside of the US.

Funding:

• Negligible difference for me; but the fact that Georgetown seems more stingy ironically makes me more grateful for their offer and thus harder to turn it down.

Anyone else struggling with this debate and what are your thoughts?

[alloy]

I am now deciding between Georgetown MSPP and SAIS and last week I accidently met former president of my country (who was teaching at Georgetown SFS). He said that probably the best decision would be to toss a coin

[olgs7]

Struggling with the same decision as well. I was first torn between SAIS, MSFS and GWU, due to funding from GWU, but after the open house reception, I felt like GWU wasn't the right fit for me. Hard to turn down funds...but it is what it is

 

Does anyone have an idea of how realistic it may be to get a fellowship from MSFS? They said I am on the waiting list, but didn't tell me where I am on it. . . just what the fellowship $ range would be. I guess I have to wait till after April 20, when others turn them down.

 

As for SAIS, I got no $ but I am hoping for something in the second year. It's a tough choice, as SAIS has always been my dream program . . . but I hate the idea of the debt and have always managed to steer clear of it. 

[WinterSolstice]

Struggling with the same decision as well. I was first torn between SAIS, MSFS and GWU, due to funding from GWU, but after the open house reception, I felt like GWU wasn't the right fit for me. Hard to turn down funds...but it is what it is

 

Does anyone have an idea of how realistic it may be to get a fellowship from MSFS? They said I am on the waiting list, but didn't tell me where I am on it. . . just what the fellowship $ range would be. I guess I have to wait till after April 20, when others turn them down.

 

As for SAIS, I got no $ but I am hoping for something in the second year. It's a tough choice, as SAIS has always been my dream program . . . but I hate the idea of the debt and have always managed to steer clear of it. 

 

I was in a similar situation. I went to the GW open house and left before lunch even happened. It just seemed so...flimsy? Like a fluff program? I don't know. Definitely didn't help that some people brought their parents and the presentations weren't that good. It didn't seem like a good investment to me. 

 

But I hear you regarding the SAIS debt thing. If I go to SAIS, I'm looking at 80k debt, if I am particularly unlucky in terms of securing second year or additional external funding. I think it's probably a big reason why a lot of SAIS grads end up going to the private sector. It's the only conceivable way to make a significant dent in the loans!

 

Edit: @IA+Math - what in particular made you feel that the SAIS career services was weak? I don't have MSFS for reference, but I left the SAIS open house feeling satisfied with career services.

Edited April 14, 2014 by WinterSolstice

[olgs7]

I was in a similar situation. I went to the GW open house and left before lunch even happened. It just seemed so...flimsy? Like a fluff program? I don't know. Definitely didn't help that some people brought their parents and the presentations weren't that good. It didn't seem like a good investment to me. 

 

But I hear you regarding the SAIS debt thing. If I go to SAIS, I'm looking at 80k debt, if I am particularly unlucky in terms of securing second year or additional external funding. I think it's probably a big reason why a lot of SAIS grads end up going to the private sector. It's the only conceivable way to make a significant dent in the loans!

 

Yeah I didn't get to go to the whole day because I was stuck at work, but I caught the end of the last lecture and the reception on the roof. I tried to use the reception to catch up on what I missed and talk to alums/current students. When I asked one alum, a State Dept employee now, why he chose GWU . . . his response was: "it was convenient for me" and "Georgetown was too far"

 

I know it's an good program and has some impressive graduates, but I didn't feel at home there. I felt like it might be a good fit for others, but not for me.

 

@WinterSolstice -  Any other insight from the open house? I hear the alumni panel was half current students

[TheWoodsman]

haha olgs7 I remember you... Just go to SAIS already you know you want to!

[WinterSolstice]

 

@WinterSolstice -  Any other insight from the open house? I hear the alumni panel was half current students

 

I honestly can't really speak to GW very much because I left early. I will say that before I went to the open houses, GW was my top choice. I got into their IDEV program, and it has a designated gender and development studies concentration. So it really seemed like it would be ideal. At the open house, the only thing the Dean really talked about GW's location. Really kept harping on being across the street from the World Bank, but without really mentioning if students are ever able to obtain work there. He seemed surly and uninvested, to be honest. He also went on to list types of people he thought wouldn't do well there, such as people who may want to get a phd, or people who aren't ready for a "serious commitment". It was all very patronizing.

 

The whole atmosphere was very uncomfortable and awkward. Some people brought their parents. It seemed a bizarre mix of kids fresh from undergrad and 40-somethings looking to get a mid-career masters. The following panel was a person from admissions, a person from academic advising, a person from the career center and I believe someone from student affairs. The career center person seemed clueless. The person from student affairs was actually a recent GW Elliott Alum, who started working at GW. She joked how she used what she learned from a negotiation/conflict management class to negotiate with her landlord.

 

It just seemed like a cash cow program. I'm sure it's really great for some students, but it's just not the program for me, which is incredibly disappointing.

 

 

But bringing it back to SAIS, you and others have mentioned hoping for second year funding. Do you happen to have any idea on the stats for the number of people who get second year funding? At open house, financial aid was pretty tight lipped about it. I think they only thing they really spoke to was that the top 30% almost always receive "some sort" of second year funding. Which is about as vague as you can get! 

[IA+Math]

I am trying to puzzle out the alumni networks of each. SAIS has a huge and expansive array of alumni in economic, finance, and development fields. I am wondering whether MSFS sends people in those fields often as well rather than just the occasional individual. From conversations with faculty and staff, I have gathered that MSFS can be more of a finance niche while SAIS is an econ niche (obviously). 

[WinterSolstice]

@IA+Math: From my impressions of the schools, MSFS seems to churn out a lot of state department/diplomat types. While SAIS is very business/econ heavy. The schools are both big enough with enough resources to allow students to explore other options, of course. But it has always been my impression that's what they specialize in. 

[olgs7]

haha olgs7 I remember you... Just go to SAIS already you know you want to!

 

I remember you too. I'm assuming you've said yes to SIPA?

[cmoz01]

I'm a 2nd year SAIS student and here are some general thoughts to keep in mind.

 

First, the US gov is barely hiring now after not hiring at all for most of last year and that is unlikely to change. That's why most grads do private sector, there are no jobs in government.

 

Second, choose the school that gives you the least debt. If you are going $80k in debt for either school, you are making a stupid decision. The average graduate of these schools does not get an $80k salary by the school's own employment stats which are seriously inflated (I'm sure GU does the same.) Go see if you can even find a job paying $80k that these schools could really help you get.

 

Third, these are IR schools with an econ/fin component, not econ or finance schools. If you don't want to be in the public sector or NGOs, just don't go to these schools, seriously. These schools' networks are in policy positions in government, think-tanks, NGOs, World Bank/development, and everywhere EXCEPT the private sector and business. If you want to do private sector work these schools are not helpful for you! Any 2nd tier MBA program crushes either school in finance/business and usually matches them in non-phd econ positions (those are unusual positions by the way) while econ phds naturally dominate most professional economist positions. 

 

Specific to SAIS, I'd say that it has outstanding econ/finance and does amazingly in public sector econ/finance areas like Treasury, World Bank, OPIC, etc. SAIS can also compete -- with difficulty -- for back-office research positions in some finance sector institutions and consultancies. A very special SAISer could cross into banking and consulting; but most likely you are not that special -- get the MBA if that's what you want.

 

Yes, as noted by several here, SAIS career services is godawful. 3 counselors for hundreds and hundreds of students -- a joke.

[WinterSolstice]

Thanks for your thoughts @cmoz01, always useful to hear another perspective. I was just hoping you could clarify something for me. You said in your post that most grads go to the private sector because the government isn't hiring. But you also mentioned that schools like SAIS couldn't really help you for private sector. Could you possibly speak more to what SAIS truly offers in terms of employment outcome then? SAIS may be playing with the numbers when they say that most grads go to the private sector, but you and many others have said that they generally do go to the private sector, so I'm not sure how to assess SAIS employment outcomes. 

[TheWoodsman]

I remember you too. I'm assuming you've said yes to SIPA?

 

not yet! Still struggling with the cost

[IA+Math]

A day left to decide and still torn. 

I spoke extensively to the Global Business and Finance Director at MSFS. She was really helpful, but I also was left wondering why it was less econ focused and more business focused when there is already a B school at Georgetown. A MSFS business degree can't compete against an MBA in most realms I would think. However, the promptness and helpfulness of MSFS is hard to dismiss. I usually get responses within an hour, if not minutes, from when I send the email. I think I can get all the classes I would at SAIS also at MSFS, but it just isn't known for it.

SAIS I think aligns with my academic interests more, but current students have told me how miserable their career services are, and SAIS has yet to respond (even with a 'we will get back to you') to a few of my emails and its been a week almost. I know that in the end, career services won't matter that much as it is up to us to secure a job, but it just also shows investment in the students. I do love how they seem to be a feeder for the World Bank and it has more finance and econ private sector alumni than other ones. I know MSFS does too, but the smaller number, though allowing more personalized attention, just means they have less alumni to utilize. 

I have written my 'Thank you for your offer' declining email but changed the school almost a dozen times in the past two weeks.

Anyone else leaving it to the last minute?
 

[WinterSolstice]

A day left to decide and still torn. 

I spoke extensively to the Global Business and Finance Director at MSFS. She was really helpful, but I also was left wondering why it was less econ focused and more business focused when there is already a B school at Georgetown. A MSFS business degree can't compete against an MBA in most realms I would think. However, the promptness and helpfulness of MSFS is hard to dismiss. I usually get responses within an hour, if not minutes, from when I send the email. I think I can get all the classes I would at SAIS also at MSFS, but it just isn't known for it.

SAIS I think aligns with my academic interests more, but current students have told me how miserable their career services are, and SAIS has yet to respond (even with a 'we will get back to you') to a few of my emails and its been a week almost. I know that in the end, career services won't matter that much as it is up to us to secure a job, but it just also shows investment in the students. I do love how they seem to be a feeder for the World Bank and it has more finance and econ private sector alumni than other ones. I know MSFS does too, but the smaller number, though allowing more personalized attention, just means they have less alumni to utilize. 

I have written my 'Thank you for your offer' declining email but changed the school almost a dozen times in the past two weeks.

Anyone else leaving it to the last minute?

 

 

Okay, so I know on this board we all spend so much time analyzing these schools to the greatest extent we can. So this may sound like such a "fluff" thing to say, but: go with what feels right. I know it sounds so lame to say 'go with your heart,' but in this case that's all you can really do. These are both amazing schools that will give you the credentials to go wherever it is you want to go. They each can give you connections, a solid educational foundation, and the name brand recognition you need. I think at a certain point, analyzing it to this level of scrutiny only makes the decision harder. You've put in all the work to get to this point, and you'll probably continue putting in all the work you need to be successful at school, and after. Yes, SAIS may be slightly better for econ (but you can still get what you need from MSFS), and yes, MSFS probably has better career services attention because it's a smaller campus (but you can still get what you need from SAIS). There are pros and cons to everything, but you'll be able to make it work for you. So instead, potentially try and look at the big picture: where you feel comfortable, where you think the people you'll fit best with are, where you'll ultimately be happy. These are amazing, killer schools. And MSFS and SAIS, in particular, are incredibly strong schools that jockey for that top spot in rankings. So at this point, I think you can stop worrying about which is "better" and focus on which one you want. Best of luck!

 

Edit: And yes, I will probably leave it to the last minute too, but I didn't receive funding, so I have longer. For the record though, I am 99% ready to send in my deposit to SAIS.

Edited April 18, 2014 by WinterSolstice

[hedong123]

Hi Winter, I found your post very helpful. Did you end up accepting the offer at SAIS? Also, are you worried about the price? Since neither of us got funding I wanted to know your thoughts on the matter.

[WinterSolstice]

Hi Winter, I found your post very helpful. Did you end up accepting the offer at SAIS? Also, are you worried about the price? Since neither of us got funding I wanted to know your thoughts on the matter.

 

I did end up sending in my deposit to SAIS. As for price, I am worried to an extent, but I have a couple of things working in my favor, in that regard. For one, I was granted a deferment for professional reasons, which will allow me to get more experience, save up some more money, and apply to outside fellowships and aid. So while I do have to pay full-freight, it won't be uniquely on loans. If I am very unlucky in securing additional funding, and if I receive no second year funding, then I am looking at around 83k. Which, to me, is a lot, but taking out loans for an MA degree is the unfortunate reality of education in the US at the moment. In an ideal world, I'll find more funding, and/or receive substantial second-year funding, but I'm prepared to take out that amount of debt if I can't.

 

For me, I wasn't prepared to take out more than 85k, especially because I still have some undergrad loans. Some people have a higher debt tolerance. Some people do go to SAIS completely on loans, but that wasn't a price tag I was willing to do completely on borrowed money. Everyone has a different attitude about it though. I think this board can have a pretty condescending attitude about how much debt other people take out. But I figure if you've put in the work and come this far, you've earned the right to decide for yourself without being judged for it by people who don't know you or your life goals. So it really depends on what you truly think is best after weighing all the factors, including when you want to have a family, what field you want to work in, etc etc.

[hedong123]

Wow! We actually have a lot in common. I also deferred for a year for professional reasons and to save money. I figured it would be better to save as much as I can from now until I begin. Also, I plan to study my foreign language intensively in order to pass out upon matriculation. I figure the lighter course load will allow me to do some PT work hopefully as current students have told me that the language courses are very time consuming.

I've heard of Bologna students who do EVERYTHING on debt. I can't imagine what those student loan bills must look like.

Anyway, glad to see someone in the same boat as me! See you in 2015!

[WinterSolstice]

Wow! We actually have a lot in common. I also deferred for a year for professional reasons and to save money. I figured it would be better to save as much as I can from now until I begin. Also, I plan to study my foreign language intensively in order to pass out upon matriculation. I figure the lighter course load will allow me to do some PT work hopefully as current students have told me that the language courses are very time consuming.

I've heard of Bologna students who do EVERYTHING on debt. I can't imagine what those student loan bills must look like.

Anyway, glad to see someone in the same boat as me! See you in 2015!

 

Yeah. I mean, I guess my potential debt burden is pretty high, but there was no way I could justify taking out the entire price. Some people do it, and I guess they make it work. But I feel like with that much money, you'll be stuck in consulting/private sector work for the rest of your natural life. That or chained to IBR jobs while making full payments for 10 years. But that being said, they know what they can handle more than I do. 

 

I'm also hoping to test out of a language (French), which I should be able to, given I used to live there. I was hoping to take Arabic as well though, and I'm a little concerned about the time commitment for that, especially when I would like to do well enough to get access to second year funding.

 

But congrats on being able to defer. I feel like SAIS makes it very difficult to get deferment approval. I was so nervous they wouldn't accept mine! I'm so happy it was approved.

 

Anyway, enjoy fall term! I can't wait until next fall when I'll be starting!

Edited May 4, 2014 by WinterSolstice

[IRToni]

When I was making my decision, and ultimately decided against SAIS for financial reasons, I talked to a then-current student, who mentioned that it is possible to take more courses in 2nd and 3rd semester (I think without more cost, or at a ver low price), and then enroll part-time in fourth, bringing your tuition down. That's what he did, anyway, and it seems to have worked.

[DupontCircle]

I would urge you to consider what I've decided on after talking to some former students. Basically taking 2 courses the summer before you're first term, a 5 course semester and then getting that last course either in the summer (if you were to intern in DC) or in the last semester. This cuts out 10k in tuition and a semester of living expenses, opportunity cost. You certainly lose a little bit but I'd take the savings any day. 

[WinterSolstice]

I would urge you to consider what I've decided on after talking to some former students. Basically taking 2 courses the summer before you're first term, a 5 course semester and then getting that last course either in the summer (if you were to intern in DC) or in the last semester. This cuts out 10k in tuition and a semester of living expenses, opportunity cost. You certainly lose a little bit but I'd take the savings any day. 

 

Some current students I've talked to recommend that method as well. That or working enough extra courses that you can finish a semester early (I can't even imagine what the workload for that would look like though).

Also when you say 2 courses in the summer before first term, do you mean pre-term or actual classes?

[DupontCircle]

Actual courses. I'll take a pre-term in August but the ones in June and July count towards the 16 needed towards graduation. So I only need to make up 2 more courses to get out a semester early. Summer courses also cost 3400 vs 5000 during the fall and spring semesters but obviously the real money is saved by taking 5 course semesters.

[cal93]

Hi guys,

I'd like to restart this discussion as decision day nears for many of us.

 

As for me, I'm ever so slightly leaning toward SAIS because of 1) the greater emphasis on econ and quant; 2) larger, more visible alumni; 3) MSFS reputation (deservedly or not) as a foreign service feeder school. I'm more interested in working in the MDBs and private sector.

 

I have a feeling my personal and academic experience would be better at MSFS (small class size, professors seem more invested in their students, stronger sense of camaraderie) but SAIS might just be better aligned with my professional goals. 

 

At SAIS, I would concentrate in IDEV and at MSFS, either IDEV or Global Business & Finance.

 

Thoughts? I guess part of me is concerned that since SAIS just seems to do a better job of selllng itself (or maybe simply tries harder at it!), I might be missing some of the positives about MSFS.

Edited April 9, 2015 by cal93