Graduate School Abroad

[Racemic Mixture]

Hi all,

 

I'm about to be a senior at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, majoring in Chemistry.  As a science major, I had no opportunity to study abroad, but I still have a strong interest in living outside of the US.  I've been looking into PhD programs in organic chemistry or chemical biology, and have found several at international schools (I'm mostly looking at the UK, but I'm not too picky).  I currently have a 3.71 overall GPA, with a 3.86 math/science GPA and have 5 semesters of research (including 2 summers) total, in two different labs, so I believe I have a somewhat competitive application. 

 

What I've been wondering is:

 

1. Does the graduate school process work the same internationally as it does in the US? By that I mean, is it possible to fund tuition and other costs through grants and stipends?

 

2. Is one able to directly apply for PhD programs after completing your bachelor's degree or do schools require a masters before one can apply for a PhD program?

 

3. Are many international programs on the same caliber as US PhD programs, or would I be hurting myself applying for a PhD abroad if I don't get into a top tier program?

 

Thank you for any and all help (this process is rather daunting).

[hj2012]

Not in your field, but I do some work in admissions consulting and we get asked these questions pretty frequently, so here are my $.02.

 

1. It is possible, but difficult. In general, you will have a much easier time finding funded programs in the U.S. than in the UK.

 

2. Most UK PhD programs prefer (and some require!) you to complete your MA before admitting you into a PhD program.

 

3. What is your eventual goal? Work in industry? Teach in the States? Frankly, you probably WILL be hurting yourself if you eventually want to find a research or faculty position in the States. 

 

If you're simply looking for the experience of living (or studying) abroad, why not apply to programs like Fulbright or Erasmus Mundus, or take a gap year in order to travel? If you're looking to live long-term in the U.S., I think doing a PhD here will ultimately be to your benefit.

[TakeruK]

I'm also not in your field, but I think some of this is common among most PhD programs, especially other science ones.

 

No, the PhD process works differently in most places outside of the US. Here are the differences I know about relevant to your questions. I also seriously considered UK and European schools when I applied!
 

1. PhD programs in the UK are fully funded, like in the US. Same for the European schools. However, there is not as much money available to fund international students! Many UK schools I looked into basically said that they have limited funds to pay international students and they will only accept students they can fund (or have external funding) -- no self-funding! So, in my field and probably many other sciences, you will likely find a lot of funded programs, but the spots available will be much fewer and thus the competition will be higher. One UK school I looked at basically said that international applicants must win one of the university-wide graduate fellowships in order to be admitted since the department has no money for international students. 

 

Another issue is that a lot of external fellowships you might be able to apply for are only for UK or EU residents. So, you are only eligible for a small number of fellowships and thus the real criteria for acceptance is getting one of those competitive awards, which might be a higher threshold than being admitted to a school!

 

However, this situation is basically the same for any student applying outside of their home country. International students applying to the US face the same issues, especially at public schools, where the international student tuition is much higher, so they cost more to the school, which means fewer international students get accepted. In addition, many international students in the US are very limited to what fellowships they can apply for as well. 

 

2. Many UK and EU PhD programs are about 3 years long and research only. They often do require Masters degrees first because that's where you do your coursework. Most graduate students will do a Masters after their undergrad (or in some countries, a 5 year program that grants both degrees) before starting a PhD program. A Canadian, UK, or EU masters is similar to the first 1.5 to 2 years of a US PhD program while one of these PhD programs is similar to the last 3 years of a US PhD program. So, the overall work is about the same, just formatted differently. 

 

US programs tend to admit new PhD students by committee--i.e. an admissions committee often will meet and pick the best applicants to matriculate into their program, who then do coursework and lab rotations to eventually find their research group. In other places, grad students are "hired" directly by a professor who wants that particular student in their lab/group. A committee might exist to help sort through applications and filter out that don't meet minimum standards, but ultimately, it will be each professor's decision whether or not to admit a student. So, you might get an offer that specifically says you can work with specific profs. In some EU schools, PhD positions are considered jobs and you will find them published in job postings alongside postdoc positions. 

 

If you want a Masters first before applying to PhD positions, I recommend completing the entire track either in the UK or EU (where-ever you want to go to school), or in Canada, where the Masters program is funded since it's the first 2 years of a PhD basically. I don't think it's a good idea to do an unfunded US Masters and if possible, I think people should avoid doing half of their degree in the US system and the other half in the UK/EU system (although it will still work).

 

3. I got similar advice to hj2012 when I talked to professors about applying to programs outside of North America (my question was specific to future jobs in Canada though but it shouldn't be a huge difference). I think that for academic jobs anywhere, you will need exposure and "brand name recognition" when you are applying for academic jobs post-PhD. I have no idea what the criteria is for non-academic jobs (though I would guess it is less important). Many science PhD students will spend a large chunk of their final year going on a talk circuit to give seminars and colloquium talks at the schools they are applying to (and many schools will request their short listed applicants to come do this too).

 

So, if you want e.g. a postdoc in the US, but are in the UK for school, this might put you at a disadvantage. It will be much harder for you to travel to the US to make these connections. Being across the world might mean that your "reputation" that you build in the UK might not be as well known in the US. 

 

But this is not impossibly hard of course. There are lots of things you can do if you want to both do a PhD in the UK and get a postdoc position in the US. I would recommend things like:

a ) Definitely get membership in the American society for your field and attend annual meetings in the US where possible

b ) Attending a top tier international student working with top researchers whose influence/reputation can cross continents is helpful

c ) Work in groups or on projects that include collaborators with researchers at US schools!

 

If you want to end up in the US/North America for work, I would give you the same advice as I would give to a Canadian thinking about US PhD programs (and advice I followed): Don't go to an international school that is of lower quality/ranking than the schools you can get into in the US. I would only apply to the top tier schools abroad and keep my "safety schools" to my home country. 

 

Finally, if you just want to have experience living abroad, which is a good thing for sure, perhaps it's better to do something else for a short time, like hj2012 suggested.

Edited July 2, 2014 by TakeruK