US MSc. + PhD. with European BSc.

[poissonpilote]

Hey guys,

I'm in need for advice concerning grad school right now.

I'm currently finishing a 2 year undergraduate french diploma in computer science (called DUT for those who know). Next year, I'll be doing the final year of a BSc in computer science (with options in artificial intelligence) at Oxford Brookes University, in Oxford, UK.

After that, I plan on doing a MSc. + PhD in the US.

My marks concerning my current diploma are average good (i'm in the top third essentially). If the marks were to be converted rawly to GPA, it'd be around 2.5. Thing is, due to a radical difference in grading philosophy here in France, it doesn't translate properly: here the valedictorian's GPA would be around 3.0 or 3.1.

I haven't worked really hard this year, but I hope to do so next year (theoretical CS interest me much more than UML and java stuff). I hope to achieve Bristish First Class honours.

My question is regarding my application to US grad schools. I'm afraid that my french system marks could be misinterpreted and work against me. Also, I've seen that most grad schools in the US have application deadlines by early december of the year before, so I wouldn't be able to submit my UK marks for the first semester to make up for it.

I could also wait for the end of the year, and apply for spring semester. In that case I'd be able to submit all of my marks, but it's a bit risky: if I'm not accepted anywhere, I will have nothing to do for the whole year.

What do you think I should do?

My current draft of an idea is to do the following:

- Take the GRE around november, and try to rock at it

- Submit applications to schools with recommendation letters from my teachers at Oxford from the first semester and GRE results for fall semester, and pray

(- Pray)

If I'm accepted somewhere I want, hooray! If not:

- Eventually give the GRE another go if my results weren't excellent the first time

- Resubmit my applications around June, for spring semester

(- Pray even harder)

What do you think my odds are? Do you happen to know how are foreign diplomas (and UK BSc.) regarded in grad schools?

I guess I'm not going to hope for the best school ever, but a little part of me wishes to get in Berkeley, MIT, CMU, etc...my dream would be the MIT Media Lab, but I don't know what my odds are.

I'm a bit lost guys, as much as to which universities I should apply to (no need in applying to the top 10 if it's evident I have literally no chance there), but also as to how I should proceed to maximize my chances to go to grad school. Any insight or help is very much welcome.

(the option of continuing my MSc. + Phd in France or England is not really one for me, except if I have literally no choice. But come on, I'm going to make it, right? right?)

[sunshine]

I guarantee you that the US schools *do* have correct conversion schemas (even though they are leaving us in the dark by not publishing them ). So, do not worry about that.

Why are you saying MS/PhD in England/France is not for you? There are excellent schools in Europe and I hear there is much better funding than in US. I know for sure the University of Southampton, England and EPFL, Switzerland are excellent schools. The fact that they are not known overseas only means people from overseas don't know much about the rest of the world.

And by the way, there are quite a few graduates from MIT and other schools in your list that ended up working as software engineers at Google. I'm not saying that's a bad outcome, but you can have a PhD from many other places, or no PhD, and still work at Google.

Also, if you want to get in a good school, regardless of where it is, get a publication or two. Many strong applicants do.

[poissonpilote]

Thanks for the insight.

Why are you saying MS/PhD in England/France is not for you? There are excellent schools in Europe and I hear there is much better funding than in US. I know for sure the University of Southampton, England and EPFL, Switzerland are excellent schools. The fact that they are not known overseas only means people from overseas don't know much about the rest of the world.

- The educative system in France is definitely not for me. I spent the 14 years of my life in it, and it only got worse with the time, especially in college. Also, at Master's level, it is very little to no research oriented, whereas Grad students in the Anglophone system are already delving in the field of research. And I'd like to go towards research as soon as I can. (also, concerning funding in France, it is very very low: MSc. students very very rarely have a stipend or fellowship, and the same applies to PhD students. The undergrad/grad separation in France is not visible at all).

- As for England, well I reckon that if I'm admissible for English MSc./Phd. programs, then I would be for US programs. It is then a matter of personal preference- I'd much rather do it in the US.

Also, if you want to get in a good school, regardless of where it is, get a publication or two. Many strong applicants do.

I'll definitely try to do that next year. (in France, if you spoke of 'publication' to your teachers while still in undergrad, they would think that you're either cocky or that you didn't understand what a publication is. Here's why I'm afraid of the prejudice my studying in France could bring me).

My only concerns are that I only have one year of undergrad left, and most grad school applications are due by December/January. I do not know how easy it will be to have enough work done is the time period between september and november to be considered a 'strong applicant'.

Any advice or insight considering the course of action to take concerning my grad application in regards to my current situation is very very much welcome.

Thanks again!

[sunshine]

Well, you have to finish your undergraduate. First of all, do well in your courses for the remaining time in France.

Start doing readings, you don't need a professor for this. If you are interested in AI - pick up the AIMA book. Go through conference proceedings - say IJCAI - it has a section on robotics (http://ijcai-09.org/technical_program.html).

Read as much as you can, don't just flip superficially through the material, but also don't spend huge amounts of time if you don't get something. Think. Ask yourself questions. Have a notebook and write down notes - the model, theorems, main ideas of the proofs, and anything else that comes to your mind, even if it seems trivial at the moment. The act of writing will force you to think about the material and will clarify your thought processes (I find this true in general, not just when reading papers). Here is some nice advice on how to read a research paper: http://blizzard.cs.uwaterloo.ca/keshav/ ... eading.pdf.

Finally, don't get too stuck on MIT or CMU. There is an element of randomness that you can't control in the admissions process, and it is much easier to get into these schools if you have letters of reference from professors known by the admissions committee. It is not fair, but that's how it is. Even if you don't get in for PhD, you may do a postdoc there later.

Rather, set your goal to get one or two papers in top conferences before applying. This site has CS conference rankings: http://www.cs-conference-ranking.org. Even if you do all the work on your own, you will likely need the help of a prof when editing the paper for submission.

[poissonpilote]

Thanks a lot for all the advice about all personal learning and paper writing!

However, I have no courses remaining in France, as this year is over I only have one year left of undergrad, from sept '09 to may '10, at Oxford Brookes University in the UK.

However, I'd really like some insight and advice concerning the whole application process in grad schools. Should I aim for sept '10? Or wait to get all of next year's results in hope for a stronger application and apply for Spring semester?

As I've mentioned in my first post:

What do you think I should do?

My current draft of an idea is to do the following:

- Take the GRE around November, and try to rock at it

- Submit applications to schools (with recommendation letters from my teachers at Oxford from the first semester and GRE results) for fall semester

(- Pray)

If I'm accepted somewhere I want, hooray! If not:

- Eventually give the GRE another go if my results weren't excellent the first time

- Resubmit my applications around June, for spring semester

(- Pray even harder)

Any advice? Do you think that's a good idea? Any better plan?

...I wish it were easier to transfer from one academic system to another

[belowthree]

I think it's a good plan not to bother to chose one or the other and just apply for fall to the schools you'd want to go to, and then if that doesn't work out, apply again for the spring. (or the following fall)

[sunshine]

It is very hard for someone from outside to give you advice. I would apply sooner rather than later. The application process is draining, I can tell you that. You will waste a lot of time on GREs and writing a research statement - this little essay takes several iterations, hours of editing, deleting and starting over. There is also a psychological factor - it consumed me emotionally, but that depends on the person.

However, I encourage you to apply for these reasons:

- Get the GREs out of the way (You have to do it anyway), it will ease the pressure later.

- It will force you to think about what you really want to do. You might realize that you don't know yet what that is, but that's okay. It's better to know.

- Regardless of the outcome, it will motivate you more than not applying and worrying about the future.

For PhD - apply to many different places.

MS - Very hard to find funding in US. Canada and some European schools(?) do give you money, that's a much better choice(!) MS will also give you a chance to publish, which is a requirement for PhD in top schools.

Good luck and feel free to email me if you have other questions.

[poissonpilote]

Again, thank you so much guys.

I will try to take the GREs in England around October-November (the official document says I'll have to go to Leeds, and that they have dates on October 18th, October 25th, and November 8th, so that's good (it's the 08-09 document, but it shouldn't change much- I'll contact Leeds anyway)), that way I can apply for Fall semester '10 (as the applications typically end towards December/January from what I've seen).

I will also talk about that with teachers/advisors as soon as I get to college next September.

Sunshine, you give me tips for applying to PhD and MS.

For PhD - apply to many different places.

MS - Very hard to find funding in US. Canada and some European schools(?) do give you money, that's a much better choice(!) MS will also give you a chance to publish, which is a requirement for PhD in top schools.

I'm not sure whether I missed a subtlety or not- do I have to apply for MS first, and then for PhD, or are there some PhD programs that include a MS?

In any cases, I'll definitely keep you guys posted

[sunshine]

You can do a direct PhD in US. In Canada/Europe too, although it's less common.

[poissonpilote]

Thanks for the precision Indeed in France, it is impossible to go straight from BSc. to PhD, you have to get a MSc. in-between.

So if I want to go for a PhD, how should I decide to do first a MSc., then a Ph.D., or to go straight for a Ph.D? What are the pros and cons of each choice?

[belowthree]

Generally if you already know you want a PhD you should go directly for one where you can.

Better funding, for one.